Game loses something by not forcing Open play

[SirGirard]

I had a post yesterday asking why use open play, and it turns out the only reason is to gank or be ganked.

But the fact you can advance in the game running solo only, imho, really makes the game lose something.

A lot of the fun of Eve is the fact that the risk is always there, and the level of risk is reflected in the level of reward.

But in ED, you can go do everything with no risk. (Interdiction by NPC's isn't a risk, its easy to avoid).

I really wish you could only advance in Open play, or that Open money/ships/reputation were separate from Solo money/ships/reputation.

Yes, I know some don't want to have to deal with other players, great, there is a solo mode.

But the fact that solo and open are tied together means you can play in complete safety, get your uber ship, then jump into open.

Really feels like the game is losing some of its potential by having a 100% safe mode.

Unfortunately the internet always breeds a high percentage of players who's only fun is to grief or spoil other people's gameplay! They then hide behind the old claim "This is part of the game and there should be risk, if you don't like it you should not be playing". The potential problem, and I hope FD will address it, is the lack of serious gameplay consequences for these griefers. It is legitimate gameplay to be a pirate/murderer/criminal, but, as in real life the criminal should accept the consequences which is they are increasingly marginalised and segregated from the law abiding community and find it ever harder to access aspects of gameplay in the higher security/High Tech areas of ED.

I guess it will be a balancing issue, but if you get the consequences for criminal behaviour right, then open play becomes realistic. In the meantime a lot of people will want to play Solo.

PS I played EVE for 3 years and still do.

 

[Roybe]

Not sure how to balance bounties with those that would run them up and let a friend kill them to collect...other than carrying a bounty...means you are uninsured.

 

[Antmax]

Oh dear. The old fallback of 'you don't agree with me therefore you don't understand / are stupid / are a small furry creature from Alpha Centauri'...

We understand perfectly, we just don't agree. I'm only ever in Open, but I have no issues with the how the various mode are currently implemented and see no reason why it should change.

What unfairness. Your assuming PvP which almost never happens in open anyway and people in solo and open doing the same trade routes are effecting the exact same market. If you find a good route in solo, and someone else finds it in open. Both your markets are effected. I guess open would give you the option to defend your route.

In the end it seems like those scared of solo players and unfairness are the ones that are less honest or trusting and expect the majority of players to use solo as an expolit. In the end Elite games haven't really been about competing, just about doing your own thing and setting your own goals. The only unfairness is not letting people play as they want to and facing the consequences of their choices.

Since gamma started I killed 3 npc's, got killed once and crashed once. Flew a sidewinder with no shields or weapons till I could buy a hauler. Flew that without weapons for a couple of days. Now have a fast viper courier with 12ton cargo bay, 11.5ly jump range and a single basic pulse laser. I can evade 95% of interdictions with ease and run away from most pirates if they succeed. I only play open and have only seen a couple of players in as many weeks.

 

[Ikari]

I also think all players using the oculus rift and a joystick a throttle should be put in a separate mode as they have a distinct advantage over players using a mouse and keyboard.

 

[philux]

I also think all players using the oculus rift and a joystick a throttle should be put in a separate mode as they have a distinct advantage over players using a mouse and keyboard.

I wouldn't want to play with players that don't use a HOTAS anyway ;-). Btw, TrackIR still owns Oculus Rift in terms of an competitive advantage.

 

[Lowie]

im always play solo in open.

 

[smsKONG]

I see a big problem with how open and solo is now, but only for traders I admit that. PvEs are unaffected since nothing one player does in Solo can affect them. Explorers are in the same boat. Traders? Well, they will be affected by ghost traders from parallel Solo universes... and that's immersion and realism breaking!

Again, nobody postulates taking Solo away. The way Solo is currently working is a pure side effect of last minute design changes... taking off-line away and giving something to off-line folks, namely Solo mode. I don't understand what are Off-line/Solo people stuck on so bad. I mean how is making Solo and Online separate different from original kickstarter goal of making off-line and on-line modes? That's identical!

But suddenly making Solo an off-line's equivalent is so heretic that everyone has to be so against it?

I don't get it, you guys don't make any sense to me. Maybe because most fail to really think about what separating Solo from Off-line means. Or... everyone suddenly see an easy exploit to emerge in On-line in souped up ships by playing solo without risk and getting their shiny ships to play in on-line...

Affected by ghost players in another universe?
So this doesn't happen in open at all then - ie if there are 500 players flying round Sol, how many of them will be interacting with every other player in the system??
That's right; none of them. They will all be affected by ghost players In another universe!

How about the odd one out: he's busy flying round in an instance all of his own because there's no room in anyone elses instance. Is he ruining your game too!?
It's not his fault he's flying round in the equivalent of solo play, nevertheless that's the way it would work - so should he be ousted from the open group for ghosting?

Same thing for those 8 people in one instance at the same time as another instance of 10 peeps all flying around in the same system- they're all affecting the game without being able to see each other...

 

[Tau Ceti]

... PvEs are unaffected since nothing one player does in Solo can affect them. Explorers are in the same boat. Traders? Well, they will be affected by ghost traders from parallel Solo universes... and that's immersion and realism breaking!
..

Ok, now I understand why you are saying this. You think solo and open are parallel universes, that solo is somehow a ghost trade. That is not the case.

Solo and open are purely grouping preferences for the instancing system. You may have selected open but all those times you don't see another player? You are in solo. It is the same code, same universe, same everything. You have just been put in an instance by yourself. Even though there may be hundreds or thousands of players in the same place at the same time. Reasons may vary from poor compatible connection to other instances being full or just netcode playing safe.

Of course, when you head 150ly in any random direction you may actually be alone, but still no difference between solo and all.

You can be more selective in your preferences, of course, from only 'friends' to 'don't care but not with him'.

The secret is, there is no 'All mode', just solo and solo+

Sorry.

 

[TheEponymousBob]

My thoughts on it...

I have a feeling that 99% of people being so against completely separating Solo and online are not understanding what is being asked for. We are not asking to take away your Solo mode, we are merely asking for separating Solo and online for a sake of fairness.

I think you are wrong, and I say that as someone who is entirely sure what you are asking for; so unless there are 99 others here who don't, we can discount this. Rather, I'd say you don't know what I am asking for. To whit:

If you're sooooooooooo for Solo, let's make is truly Solo!

I'm not sooooooooo for solo, I'd just like it to be available for the occasional times I don't feel like mixing with other players. That's "players", not griefers, pirates, PKers, or whatever else, just players. I'm not afraid of other players, I'm not anti-PvP, I'm not looking for "zero risk" solo grinding (which is handy, because it doesn't exist). Just sometimes I want to be alone. I may fancy a skirmish without knowing that I'll automatically become the #1 target just because my scanner blip is hollow. Sometimes I don't want to have to worry that I might inadvertently steal a kill from another player. Or that I crash into someone on the way out of a station, wiping out an hour of their play. Other times, I may fancy grouping up with my friends, who have already decided not to play open.

Of course I could maintain separate characters for these scenarios, but the great thing about E: D is that they've come up with a mechanism whereby we don't have to. So I can remain sooooooooo for open.

People being staunchly against separating Online and Solo are the kind of people who actually want to grief others. What do I mean by that? The only way a Solo player can affect universe at current is by ghost trading and depressing trade routes...

... just like NPCs do anyway. Honestly, half the time this forum is complaining that the "background sim" is too static/unrealistic, then the other half complaining that milk-run trade routes actually get used until they flatten!

...without any risk inherent for Online mode.

Repeat after me: "It has nothing to do with risk.". Risk in solo is virtually identical to open. Have you actually tried playing this Gamma?

Simpler for everyone would be to separate Solo from Online completely. Then the Solo player has his own galaxy to himself and it doesn't affect Online folks or allows for unfair game mechanics when such Solo player switches modes at a whim.

Nope; simplest would be to leave things exactly as they are and stop worrying about nothing.

Sharing everything between two modes is the dumbest idea to be honest.

Honest: maybe. Right: nope.

 

[Zenicetus]

I have played many MMO style games over the last 15 years or so and my impression is that open, pvp always on, games don't do too well compared to pve games with optional pvp.
.
I like a bit of pvp sometimes but not all the time, sometimes I just want to kick back and say sod the world...

Yep, that's my feeling too, and why I'm here in this game instead of something else.

My wife and I spent a few years in WoW, on a PvE server with optional PvP. We spent most of our time just running around in co-op doing the PvE stuff, but we would also enter the battlegrounds when we felt like some PvP action. Occasionally we'd self-flag for PvP when higher level toons entered one of the low-level Zones to kill NPC's, triggering a spontaneous micro battle.

It was fun, and it was optional. We could play co-op PvE when we wanted and full-on PvP when we wanted. And anyone who wanted 24/7 PvP just joined a PvP-only sever realm. And even the PvP servers weren't completely open PvP because there were numerous safe zones, allowing players to choose how frequent their PvP interaction was.

For some reason, people think that what works for a behemoth MMO like World of Warcraft can't work here.

 

[Flying Penguin]

Isn't playing with others fun? Isn't that enough? Group and solo play only come with problems, just look at this very thread.

But still, PvE and PvP are pretty much the exact same thing, how can you enjoy PvE but not PvP?

Sounds like you had bad experiences in open play, I find it much friendlier than what you describe. But still, if all the nice people hide in a group, then yes, open play might be terrible. Which was kinda my point, it's only bad if you decide it should be by avoiding it, and it won't be good unless you make efforts to make it good.

I just want to play with everyone myself, but I won't isolate myself from others either. I picked the group anyone can play in, you decided to play separately, it's up to you to join others.

If that's "victim blaming", how else should I be putting it then? I've been playing in open and had a great time, met plenty nice commanders, met hostile ones too I had fun fighting, there's no griefing, PvP is borderline impossible, and I just see no reason to avoid others, especially when it impoverishes the community as a whole. And those are still quite excessive measures, for a video game.

Great communities are created not by excluding those you don't like, but by efforts from its members to improve its quality. No matter how much you don't like it, it won't change my opinion nor what I've noticed time and time again in countless games: you make open play worse by avoiding it. Unless you can come up with a solution to make it good that doesn't require any action from players, in which case the whole world is interested.

Thanks for the detailed response, clearly we come at this from different angles and are never going to see eye to eye, so if you don't mind, I won't respond point by point (or we'll be at this all night ), but just try explain where I come from.

I'm not ideologically opposed to playing PvP where it makes sense and where players act in a way that makes game world sense. ARMA team PvP is a great example of this. I don't even mind being targeted by pirate players because I'm the biggest and juiciest unshielded Hauler laden with gold (for example), it makes sense. What I don't enjoy is being a target simply because my scanner icon is hollow. I play games for relaxation, I don't feel it is a matter of pride for me to constantly "test" myself against other players. I enjoy playing *with* other people but I'm not always in the mood to play *against* other people. Realistically that means I flit between modes as the mood strikes. Before anyone suggests I just grief in open, I've never initiated a PvP fight.

The difference between PvP and PvE for me essentially boils down to whether I trust players to act in a way that enhances both our experiences (rational play of world appropriate roles) or whether I'm just another notch on their kill streak. Experience of other games over the years suggests that many players are less conducive to immersive interaction than a well designed NPC, even the constructive ones.

I guess I'm more of a single player gamer at heart, I'm happy enough to play with others, but have the desire to occasionally retreat into my own little world. Hell, I even play Call of Duty for the single player!

Tonight I will probably spend some time in solo (3 hours sleep last night and can't go to bed early as I have to administer late night meds so am not firing on all cylinders), but tomorrow I might be back in open.

This wasn't sold as an open or nothing game, I'm not sure I see any good that can come from a hard wall between the various worlds. I may contribute less to a community than if I play always open, but I contribute nothing to a community that excludes me by asking that I double grind.

Anyway, that's my rambling done. I hope that makes my position a little clearer, even if you don't agree, and that we meet in open at some point, if you will let me in

 

[Milky82]

Are we there yet ?

 

[TheEponymousBob]

Please explain how. I've already given my thorough explanation on this subject.

In fairness, this is the (n+1)th thread on the matter, and both I and others have also given thorough explanations n times already. But to reiterate: I cannot commit my main commander to open-only play (for health reasons). So I either spend most of my time contributing to a healthy open ecosystem (with occasional solo days), or I remain banished to solo play while open becomes home for only those who are up for player interaction 24x7.

Yeah because they need to be encouraged to "PLAY VIDEO GAMES"

Didn't say "video games". Said open play. Telling a solo player that if he/she wants to try open play, they have to start again from scratch, is not the ideal way to bring new players into the fold.

Restricting which commanders are allowed into open play is a suboptimal strategy for seeing more commanders in open play.

 

[Kayweg]

Look at it this way:

The solo players affect the open play universe in all sort of ways, that practically makes them part of the background simulation, a background simulation not simply determined by an algorithm but by real people too.

Sound any better now ?

/Tongue in cheek

 

[TheEponymousBob]

I see a big problem with how open and solo is now, but only for traders I admit that. PvEs are unaffected since nothing one player does in Solo can affect them. Explorers are in the same boat. Traders? Well, they will be affected by ghost traders from parallel Solo universes... and that's immersion and realism breaking!

These "ghost traders" are basically part of the NPC background.

Again, nobody postulates taking Solo away. The way Solo is currently working is a pure side effect of last minute design changes... taking off-line away and giving something to off-line folks, namely Solo mode.

You are mistaken here; online solo, along with the ability to move freely between solo and open was in the kickstarter from day one.

I don't understand what are Off-line/Solo people stuck on so bad. I mean how is making Solo and Online separate different from original kickstarter goal of making off-line and on-line modes? That's identical!

Here you are essentially correct. Making online solo and open separate would indeed be essentially like offline mode. And that's what FD can't/won't make work. So we are left with the original plan for online solo, open, and the ability to switch.

But suddenly making Solo an off-line's equivalent is so heretic that everyone has to be so against it?

Nothing sudden about it. This has been discussed to death, and countless polls taken, and every single time there has been a strong majority in favour of mode switching.

I don't get it, you guys don't make any sense to me. Maybe because most fail to really think about what separating Solo from Off-line means. Or... everyone suddenly see an easy exploit to emerge in On-line in souped up ships by playing solo without risk and getting their shiny ships to play in on-line...

You realise that the fact you don't get it (by your own admission) just might not be other people's fault, right?

 

[philux]

Look at it this way:

The solo players affect the open play universe in all sort of ways, that practically makes them part of the background simulation, a background simulation not simply determined by an algorithm but by real people too.

Sound any better now ?

/Tongue in cheek

ED is the first single player MMO with shared market PvP. I already see all those clans outtrading each other! So exciting! I bet the Euro Truck and Farm Simulator devs are sweating bullets already!

 

[Zenicetus]

PvP servers have consistently been the most populated, PvP modes are some of the most popular ones, and indeed, solo players in a MMO are a ridiculously small audience. On the other hand, there is a huge audience for PvP centric games.

That would be news to Blizzard.

I guess someone should tell them WoW is a failure because it not only includes massively popular PvE servers, but also allows mode switching between PvE and PvP on the same server. That reminds me of some other game about to be released... now, what was its name again?

 

[Meutra]

Look at it this way:

The solo players affect the open play universe in all sort of ways, that practically makes them part of the background simulation, a background simulation not simply determined by an algorithm but by real people too.

Sound any better now ?

/Tongue in cheek

As a solo player i have quite a large background simulation going on

 

[philux]

That would be news to Blizzard.

I guess someone should tell them WoW is a failure because it not only includes massively popular PvE servers, but also allows mode switching between PvE and PvP on the same server. That reminds me of some other game about to be released... now, what was its name again?

So in WoW THE key element of PvE was raiding with raid groups up to 40 players. Hence, ED needs a raid mechanism and an option to beam your friends, who might be thousands of light years away, to your location.

 

[Asp Explorer]

So in WoW THE key element of PvE was raiding with raid groups up to 40 players. Hence, ED needs a raid mechanism and an option to beam your friends, who might be thousands of light years away, to your location.

You are joking, right?