Gankers' rights movement?

[Robert Maynard]

There is no 'some' about it- either Powerplay is about adversarial conflict or its not.

The pan-modal implementation means that adversarial conflict within Powerplay remains optional, at this time - with or without the block feature. We await Frontier's determination regarding the subset of proposals from the Flash Topic that Will advised us were being considered.

 

[Leper Messiah]

That picture was taken in the early 80s, well after Pablo Escobar was known internationally as a drug trafficker, cartel leader, and mass murderer. He's on vacation, having his photo taken with his son in front of the White House.

But if he wasn't acting like a drug lord and like a normal visitor to the states then it's not comparable is it? See reply to the 50 cal situation below.

ATR should be after criminals, irrespective of what they are flying, and not after well armed independent pilots, which is going to be most of them. Now if carrying weapons in high-sec was itself illegal, that would make things trickier, but one would still need to be scanned and intercepted by authorities.

My point is a criminal in a tricked out PvP engineered kill machine SHOULD be a target. Yes FD need to code a system to work out who the seal clubbers are.

Probably only to where he is in that photo, but mostly because Escobar was a fairly small man and 186+ pounds of weapons would probably have made it hard to climb the fence with just his feet.

Again so you think that a man walking off a plane from Colombia with 2 browning 50 cals wouldn't be stopped earlier than the front fence of the Whitehouse??

Prior to the closing of Pennsylvania Ave to vehicular traffic in 1995, you could haven driven up in your van, hopped out with your Brownings akimbo, posed for a few photos, and likely driven off before being stopped. You might get a very uncomfortable no-knock warrant served on you by the ATF later, but it's not difficult to get a weapon to the front gates of the White House, even today.

And the repurcussion after that would be the equivalent of being banned from the FD servers would it not?

That heavy handedness certainly hasn't made crime uncommon or impossible in Mega-City One.

It's not about making crime uncommon or impossible, it's about repurcussions, break the law in MC1 and it's pretty much certain the Law will come down on you like a tonne of bricks, no namby pamby "real world criminal rights" getting in the way. Death Penalty for a LOT of the bad stuff and IMMEDIATELY dispensed, NO trial.

And the repurcussions go both ways, low sec and anarchies should be what it says on the tin, Mad Max style full on madness!

 

[Rubbernuke]

The pan-modal implementation means that adversarial conflict within Powerplay remains optional, at this time - with or without the block feature. We await Frontier's determination regarding the subset of proposals from the Flash Topic that Will advised us were being considered.

But at a conceptual level Powerplay is about conflict- its unique in this aspect- even pacifist powers still undermine by violence. Its this uncomfortable overlap that needs clarity otherwise it damages the feature, its why I talk about boundaries and rules- this is one where its too fuzzy.

Its why I want the NPCs beefed up if PP is to remain as it is, or solo and open tasks separate- rather than have uncomfortable overlaps you have clean, well defined roles.

But yes, I will be interested to see what FD do in the end.

 

[Pat Healy]

That's it. "Haha ship go boom" and maybe someone's day is a little worse for it.

Exactly right, and this is what I don't get. There is a person on the other end, and in the case of the Deciat ganker, the person getting ganked is probably a noob who's overwhelmed with the steep learning curve and has no clue that ganking is even a thing. I'm not sure what the appeal is of making their day a little worse while simultaneously ensuring that they never return to Open.

I see this as an entirely different thing from ganking at Shinrarta, for instance. If you've earned the Founders World permit, you've been around long enough to know that Shin Dez is the gankiest place in the game, so go there in Open at your own risk. Deciat ganking OTOH is pure bullying. I think Deciat gankers probably got stuffed in trash cans as kids and now torture puppies in their spare time to relieve the sense of impotent rage.

 

[Morbad]

But if he wasn't acting like a drug lord and like a normal visitor to the states then it's not comparable is it? See reply to the 50 cal situation below.

And as long as the security response is reactionary, a seal clubber doesn't need to be acting like a seal clubber until it's far too late for even ridiculously overpowered intervention to do anything about it.

My point is a criminal in a tricked out PvP engineered kill machine SHOULD be a target. Yes FD need to code a system to work out who the seal clubbers are.

The moment CMDRs in whatever you think a seal clubber would use realize they are being targeted for using that equipment, they will start to use equipment virtually indistinguishable from the vessels they are targeting.

Again so you think that a man walking off a plane from Colombia with 2 browning 50 cals wouldn't be stopped earlier than the front fence of the Whitehouse??

Why would he try to bring in Brownings from Columbia when they can be obtained vastly more easily in the States? No one smuggles weapons into to the US, that would be like selling opium to Afghanistan.

I think if Pablo Escobar wanted a pair of M2 Brownings in 1981, he would have filed for his ATF class 3 stamps with his US address, and been legally licenced to purchase them and could then have then illegally taken them to the front gate of the White House, if he felt like it. I mean, other than the 80 tons of coke per year they couldn't yet prove he was smuggling into the US and a few hundred contract killings in Colombia he was responsible for, (neither of which would have been problematic for someone with his kind of money) he was a law abiding resident alien.

And the repurcussion after that would be the equivalent of being banned from the FD servers would it not?

No, because the player is not the CMDR. The repercussion would be a dead CMDR.

It's not about making crime uncommon or impossible, it's about repurcussions, break the law in MC1 and it's pretty much certain the Law will come down on you like a tonne of bricks, no namby pamby "real world criminal rights" getting in the way.

Security intervention potent enough to stop a crime in progress isn't about repercussions, it's a mechanically heavy-handed-to-the-point-of-absurdity attempt at prevention that would still probably fail.

Plausible prevention has to come from proactive and persistent responses to criminal activity and consequences strong enough to serve as a deterrent. Magically spawning impossibly powerful ATR-like forces to pop a seal clubber in less than the time it takes for that seal clubber to down a seal is not viable.

 

[Just Paul]

My CMDR has the right to use valid game mechanics to engage in PvP. Others will point at me and cry about my tactics or even accuse me of "cheating" because they don't like my tactics. Examples: SLF and crimes on. Recently an outlaw cmdr pulled me in Deciat and started whining in comms: "no police!" and when I released my beautiful SLF pilot, he called me a cheater and left the instance. I passively griefed him and it gave me a good chuckle. Should I be actively opposed for that? meh.

In organic situations every allowed method is fine to use. Nobody should whine if the target uses crimes on, SLF, or some wing mates dropping in. For me even using premium and healbeams would by ok. If it's an arranged fight than the rules set up for it should be followed.

My point is a criminal in a tricked out PvP engineered kill machine SHOULD be a target. Yes FD need to code a system to work out who the seal clubbers are.

They would just switch ships, no need for a tricked-out-G5-PvP-murderhobo killing machine for ganking.

I pretty sure system security is actively trying to interdict you after a SC scan if you are wanted or hostile in a system. At least that's what happening to me. Some don't have an interdictor, same as the power play adjusters, and just circle you like flies cow manure. What I would like to see is that all the other sys-sec ships come to interdict you too once you are discovered, make it annoying or a hassle to fly wanted or hostile in a system. That would be enough to deter most system camping and no space-magic needed.

 

[Krash]

In organic situations every allowed method is fine to use. Nobody should whine if the target uses crimes on, SLF, or some wing mates dropping in. For me even using premium and healbeams would by ok. If it's an arranged fight than the rules set up for it should be followed.

Oh yeah, premium ammo and healbeams; 2 more ingame options that some call "cheats". I'm tempted to try those simply because so many players are against them.

 

[Deleted member 110222]

Me ganking a random Type-6 player doing biowaste missions is not against the rules.

I literally don't need to so much as consider the community feeling on the matter as the community is irrelevant. Frontier is GM. GM makes the rules. The rules say I'm not breaking them.

Next.

 

[Bigmaec]

Oh yeah, premium ammo and healbeams; 2 more ingame options that some call "cheats". I'm tempted to try those simply because so many players are against them.

I tend to use healbeams in CZs, in case of us running into PvP enemies I'd also gladly use them.
Premiums I'd never use, they have to burn in a hot fire of hell.

 

[Screemonster]

400 mld of star systems, 200 ly cubic bubble around 50-80 gankers. They are located on both hemispheres. They have limited time for game, work, school and families
It means around 10 active from 8 to 12 p.m. It means 3 wings.
They are in 2 star systems.

• Shinrarta dehzra
• some CG or some engineers. If they are on CG then they are not at engineer

Really 10 persons terrorised entire galaxy with all parrarel universes?
If yes, then did better job than isis. isis terrorised only one planet.
Problem is like a monster in shadow of children room. If you turn lights on, there is no monster.
In fact there are no gankers. There is a community who refuses any, even simpliest and basic, rules of gameplay and form of self-development.
IF NPC, star, player or whatever destroying their ship, they are not thinking even single microsecond they should a bit learn a rules of a game what they are playing. They want to nerf NPC, stars, players, they want gimballed plasma accelerators, turreted iWin buttons.

It's amazing how little situational awareness some people have too. I was in Borann earlier. I went into supercruise. I saw several people I recognised as members of SDC, so I decided to stop being in Borann.

 

[Deleted member 110222]

It's amazing how little situational awareness some people have too. I was in Borann earlier. I went into supercruise. I saw several people I recognised as members of SDC, so I decided to stop being in Borann.

A simple concept. Lost on most though. There's literally nothing stopp8ng people using Solo either.

Gotta' catch those o7's I guess...

 

[Bigmaec]

It's amazing how little situational awareness some people have too. I was in Borann earlier. I went into supercruise. I saw several people I recognised as members of SDC, so I decided to stop being in Borann.

It's an amazing learning experience getting pulled by a wing of SDC (or other PvP) aces.
Amazingly short.

 

[Deleted member 110222]

My CMDR has the right to use valid game mechanics to engage in PvP. Others will point at me and cry about my tactics or even accuse me of "cheating" because they don't like my tactics. Examples: SLF and crimes on. Recently an outlaw cmdr pulled me in Deciat and started whining in comms: "no police!" and when I released my beautiful SLF pilot, he called me a cheater and left the instance. I passively griefed him and it gave me a good chuckle. Should I be actively opposed for that? meh.

I have a problem with people who think they can tell me what game mechanics I can and cannot use.

Just blow them up harder. Seriously. This whole "But I wouldn't use that!"... I don't care ROFL.

 

[Leper Messiah]

And as long as the security response is reactionary, a seal clubber doesn't need to be acting like a seal clubber until it's far too late for even ridiculously overpowered intervention to do anything about it.



The moment CMDRs in whatever you think a seal clubber would use realize they are being targeted for using that equipment, they will start to use equipment virtually indistinguishable from the vessels they are targeting.



Why would he try to bring in Brownings from Columbia when they can be obtained vastly more easily in the States? No one smuggles weapons into to the US, that would be like selling opium to Afghanistan.

I think if Pablo Escobar wanted a pair of M2 Brownings in 1981, he would have filed for his ATF class 3 stamps with his US address, and been legally licenced to purchase them and could then have then illegally taken them to the front gate of the White House, if he felt like it. I mean, other than the 80 tons of coke per year they couldn't yet prove he was smuggling into the US and a few hundred contract killings in Colombia he was responsible for, (neither of which would have been problematic for someone with his kind of money) he was a law abiding resident alien.



No, because the player is not the CMDR. The repercussion would be a dead CMDR.



Security intervention potent enough to stop a crime in progress isn't about repercussions, it's a mechanically heavy-handed-to-the-point-of-absurdity attempt at prevention that would still probably fail.

Plausible prevention has to come from proactive and persistent responses to criminal activity and consequences strong enough to serve as a deterrent. Magically spawning impossibly powerful ATR-like forces to pop a seal clubber in less than the time it takes for that seal clubber to down a seal is not viable.

We really are not on the same page, I'm on about FD coding a system to keep a track of how a Seal clubber is playing, how many kills etc whether they are commited via PP/faction etc (to make it fairer as those parts of the game need to make sense as well), those would be exempt. So a Dbag gamer deliberatly targetting weaker targets for the Lulz will get the response.

If the Dbags stop using OTT PvP meta engineered kill machines at least that would be an improvement eh? Somehow I don't think most of them would bother as they only do it because they are in such OTT builds.

I mean wut....I talk about Salvador from BL2, you bring up this escobar dbag......it's just not what I was talking about whatsoever, I try to explain why it's not comparable and you just bang on and on about it. I'm on about someone LOOKING LIKE ARNIE/STALLONE with BIG guns walking around....what cops would let that happen? Elite allows it, it's daft. Doesn't matter how bad/mad this Escobar was if he looked like a dweeby old man with his kid.

Once again, I don't even understand your points with what I said before...not only not on the same page, not even the same library it seems.

Of course it's heavy handed, that's the only way to stop the Dbags in Elite.....and Elite is a dystopian authoratarian future where you DIE for loitering, how about that level of OTT "justice" gets handed out to the dbag players eh?

 

[Screemonster]

My CMDR has the right to use valid game mechanics to engage in PvP. Others will point at me and cry about my tactics or even accuse me of "cheating" because they don't like my tactics. Examples: SLF and crimes on. Recently an outlaw cmdr pulled me in Deciat and started whining in comms: "no police!" and when I released my beautiful SLF pilot, he called me a cheater and left the instance. I passively griefed him and it gave me a good chuckle. Should I be actively opposed for that? meh.

lol yeah, if you can't deal with being wanted then don't go doing crimes. It's even more of a "what did you expect to happen" than people that fly paper shields in Deciat - hell, at least the guys in Deciat have the excuse that they weren't deliberately looking to get shot at.

 

[Leper Messiah]

They would just switch ships, no need for a tricked-out-G5-PvP-murderhobo killing machine for ganking.

I pretty sure system security is actively trying to interdict you after a SC scan if you are wanted or hostile in a system. At least that's what happening to me. Some don't have an interdictor, same as the power play adjusters, and just circle you like flies cow manure. What I would like to see is that all the other sys-sec ships come to interdict you too once you are discovered, make it annoying or a hassle to fly wanted or hostile in a system. That would be enough to deter most system camping and no space-magic needed.

The system I have in mind would also track the players record. Be a bad enough dbag and turn up in a sidey, well Authorities pops them a LOT faster (shoe on other foot and all that).

Thing is it has to be a fast response, faster than the dbag can target and start to interdict someone. Hi sec should have constant patrols and be on the look out for any criminals. Likewise in anarchies as soon as a BH/authority turns up they should get similar response.

Anyone can more or less fly anywhere, sec levels need to mean something.

 

[Krash]

We really are not on the same page, I'm on about FD coding a system to keep a track of how a Seal clubber is playing, how many kills etc whether they are commited via PP/faction etc (to make it fairer as those parts of the game need to make sense as well), those would be exempt. So a Dbag gamer deliberatly targetting weaker targets for the Lulz will get the response.

If the Dbags stop using OTT PvP meta engineered kill machines at least that would be an improvement eh? Somehow I don't think most of them would bother as they only do it because they are in such OTT builds.

I mean wut....I talk about Salvador from BL2, you bring up this escobar dbag......it's just not what I was talking about whatsoever, I try to explain why it's not comparable and you just bang on and on about it. I'm on about someone LOOKING LIKE ARNIE/STALLONE with BIG guns walking around....what cops would let that happen? Elite allows it, it's daft. Doesn't matter how bad/mad this Escobar was if he looked like a dweeby old man with his kid.

Once again, I don't even understand your points with what I said before...not only not on the same page, not even the same library it seems.

Of course it's heavy handed, that's the only way to stop the Dbags in Elite.....and Elite is a dystopian authoratarian future where you DIE for loitering, how about that level of OTT "justice" gets handed out to the dbag players eh?

Morbad's mind is on another plane of existence than us mere humans. Just know that he's correct and it will go easier for you.

 

[Old Duck]

It's amazing how little situational awareness some people have too. I was in Borann earlier. I went into supercruise. I saw several people I recognised as members of SDC, so I decided to stop being in Borann.

SDC is still a thing?

 

[Morbad]

If the Dbags stop using OTT PvP meta engineered kill machines at least that would be an improvement eh?

I'm doubtful it would really even change anything.

Somehow I don't think most of them would bother as they only do it because they are in such OTT builds.

What makes you think this?

There were gankers and seal clubbers long before Engineering, hell, long before release...when all ships were effectively the same. Seal vs. seal clubber has very little to do with equipment. It's an intent vs. experience thing.

Inexperienced seal clubbers in 'meta engineered kill machines' are no threat to experienced CMDRs. Anyone with any experience can be an enormous threat to a novice CMDR in a soft ship.

I mean wut....I talk about Salvador from BL2, you bring up this escobar dbag......it's just not what I was talking about whatsoever, I try to explain why it's not comparable and you just bang on and on about it.

I used Escobar as an example because he was an infamous international crime lord who was so completely ignored on his vacation to DC that he was able to get someone to take his picture in front of the residence of the POTUS...because he didn't stand out.

Nothing about a seal clubber's outward appearance in ED needs to standout either.

I'm on about someone LOOKING LIKE ARNIE/STALLONE with BIG guns walking around....what cops would let that happen?

Where open carry is a thing, most of them.

In the game Pilots' Federation members are expected to be armed. This is not unusual. This does not standout. There is nothing that a seal clubber needs that a bounty hunter or armed trader would not have.

Once again, I don't even understand your points with what I said before...not only not on the same page, not even the same library it seems.

I agree and I'm highly doubtful of the breadth of your first hand experience with the individuals you seem to be so critical of.

Of course it's heavy handed, that's the only way to stop the Dbags in Elite.....and Elite is a dystopian authoratarian future where you DIE for loitering, how about that level of OTT "justice" gets handed out to the dbag players eh?

I wasn't objecting to heavy handed in-character behavior, but the gameplay mechanisms proposed to facilitate it.

In the setting it's entirely in-character for there to be heavy handed law enforcement. However, it's not at all good gameplay, or very immersive, to give these security forces capabilities that radically exceed those of CMDRs. Heavy handed mechanisms in that regard are, IMO, quite undesirable.

Judge Dredd, to go back to that example, inflicts heavy handed penalties on those he percieves as violating the law or being a threat to society. He may have high-end tools and a lot of skill, but he does not have god-like powers or magical equipment that breaks the natural laws of the universe he exists in to help him do this.

 

[Screemonster]

SDC is still a thing?

Those particular players are definitely still a thing and seeing the pair of them cruising in a hulltank FAS and an FDL was my cue to exit stage literally-any-direction-before-they-get-behind-me.