Getting EXTREMELY frustrated with a certain interdiction exploit

[HectorW]

I agree with the idea that cooldown not being reduced for submitting. Its a simple change that addresses the main problem.

No, its not.
You will simply force traders out of Open. Most will go solo play and pirates starve.
OP is not very good pirate. Get better ship, better guns, mass lock your target.

main problem is lack of balance, trader risks millions, pirate get 400cr fine for murder he can pay in any outpost. By trading you don't hurt anyone, by pirating you are and this should be addressed - ideas are in other threads.

basically i believe pirating should be much more profitable and much more risky ( eg. You pirated in empire space m you get permanent criminal status in empire systems).
Remember - traders must profit and thrive, its only natural, there can be 1 pirate for 100-1000 traders or trade will stop and pirates starve.

 

[popuptoaster]

Maybe there needs to be an artificial mass locking weapon that pirates can purchase, that would allow the devs to leave the current game mechanics as they are while the pirates can fire a temporary tiny black hole carrying torpedo at the target to slow down the drives charge rate for half a minute or so.

Good pilots will eventually be able to avoid the torps sphere of influence and get the drives back online faster while great pirates will be better shots with it and get it closer in the first place.

Adds a skill based mechanic back in, requires pirates to chose to fit a pirating module if they want to and allows traders to fit point defence and big thrusters to help them manoeuvre so we have yet more choices.


Ultimately though the devs will choose to dumb the game down again instead, every time players complain we lose choice and gain hand holding.

Can you tell I'm still bitter about the enforced slow down of my ship and boost disabling when the landing gear comes down because some players can't learn not to kill themselves while parking?

 

[HectorW]

If trading in hi security systems traders need either better response from friendly law enforcement or much better shields - for ships of comparative base cost I didn't stand a chance.

yes, this

Distress signal and law enforcement appear in 30s or so. Of course nothing like this in anarchy systems.

Pirating in secure systems deep in empire/fed/alliance space should almost impossible, but very common on borders, outskirts etc.

 

[HectorW]

I expect the submit, boost to be fixed in "early March" when 1.2/wings gets released. There needs to be a lot of mass lock balancing for teams to work anyway.

yay, wings, hurray

so for those who play - you know - alone in your ship, against galaxy are being pushed out from the game ? How can single ship fight or run from wing of pirates, murderers etc. ?

Can you play the game alone after this ?

 

[Renegade Roach]

How is this an exploit when it was designed that way?

Call it a bad choice from FD if you will (from your point of view at least), but it certainly isn't an exploit.

Sandro has already referred to this as an exploit, so make of that what you will. Needs fixing.

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And I am equally sure you are wrong. Without evidence neither of us can justify our claim.

The OP comes across as "I can't inflict my game play on another player because he got away - nerf him until I get my way" For what reason is it justified that a trader should not be able to get away? Maybe they wouldn't have got away if you had better gear/ship and/or were a better pilot.

You are wrong, up to you if you want to trawl the forum to find Sandro's post about it, I'm not prepared to do your homework for you.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

No, its not.
You will simply force traders out of Open. Most will go solo play and pirates starve.
OP is not very good pirate. Get better ship, better guns, mass lock your target.

I hate this argument, the idea that if you do anything to tip the balance of piracy against traders, you'll just push them to solo. It insults traders that they can't handle any impact to their precious cr/ton/hr grind, and it assumes some people don't like the challenge of open.

What needs to be done is not to keep the status quo for the sake of traders, but to make sure it's fair for each side. The hard part of all this is, any buff to piracy also helps players who only want to kill. As it stands now, It's 10x easier to just blow someone up then to get 20% of their cargo.

 

[blitzspear]

Or........ you go trading 320t in a Anaconda with full shields, cells and 3 large pulse lasers, and 5 canons all gimballed. It's all about choice.
When I had a slow and dead in the water Lakon 9 Heavy I would often run, once I moved up to Anaconda I don't run as much.
Only issue is the bigger trading ship you have the more damage the interdiction causes..... often not worth the bounty of killing the pirate.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

yay, wings, hurray

so for those who play - you know - alone in your ship, against galaxy are being pushed out from the game ? How can single ship fight or run from wing of pirates, murderers etc. ?

Can you play the game alone after this ?

Honestly I'm a little worried about this too, I'm not really a team kinda guy. I'd rather pirate alone then be forced to team up with others. A decent amount of traders fly without shields so odds are those players won't hire an escort. I think bounty hunters are most likely to team up, which doesn't bode well for pirates with high bounties.

My point was that a rebalance is needed for wings to work properly, right now more ships don't increase mass lock or mass lock larger ships. Most likely any changes to 1 on 1 ship combat will be tacked on there as well.

 

[tagos]

I hate this argument, the idea that if you do anything to tip the balance of piracy against traders, you'll just push them to solo. It insults traders that they can't handle any impact to their precious cr/ton/hr grind, and it assumes some people don't like the challenge of open.

What needs to be done is not to keep the status quo for the sake of traders, but to make sure it's fair for each side. The hard part of all this is, any buff to piracy also helps players who only want to kill. As it stands now, It's 10x easier to just blow someone up then to get 20% of their cargo.

Do you hate gravity as well? While I think traders who get interdicted a lot are careless the bottom line is they are not there in Open for the casual amusement of others. This is a largely zero sum game. The more fun pirates and especially killers have the less traders have. Mix in the severe consequences traders face compared to the other sides and you can see why trading in Open is already a perverse activity.

I do it for the frisson of danger but if the scales tipped too far the other way I'd walk away from Open without a backward glance. Until there are real consequences for outlaws you won't get a lively mixed ecology in Open. That's just how it is whether you like it or not.

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Honestly I'm a little worried about this too, I'm not really a team kinda guy. I'd rather pirate alone then be forced to team up with others. A large portion of traders fly without shields so odds are those players won't hire an escort. I think bounty hunters are most likely to team up, which doesn't bode well for pirates with high bounties.

A large majority fly without shield eh? Yea sure. If that were the case all the lousy pirates in this thread would not be complaining about how hard it is. They'd be crippling ships in seconds.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

Do you hate gravity as well? While I think traders who get interdicted a lot are careless the bottom line is they are not there in Open for the casual amusement of others. This is a largely zero sum game. The more fun pirates and especially killers have the less traders have. Mix in the severe consequences traders face compared to the other sides and you can see why trading in Open is already a perverse activity.

It's not exactly a zero sum game since mass lock also helps bounty hunters, which hurts pirates. I'm not saying to make piracy 100% possible in all cases, but this one case cobra vs type 6 needs to be looked at.

Until there are real consequences for outlaws you won't get a lively mixed ecology in Open. That's just how it is whether you like it or not.

As a pirate, I too won't some real consequences. As of right now the cops area joke, the only challenge comes from player bounty hunters. I look forward to the day piracy is actually challenging, but when that day comes it would also have to be more rewarding as well. Piracy is the second worst paying profession in the game(behind exploration), it needs to scale to bigger ships better and needs a more efficient scooping system.

There's already a healthy mix of professions in the game btw, in my normal haunt I see 4x as many traders as pirates, and probably around 8x as many bounty hunters.

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A large majority fly without shield eh? Yea sure. If that were the case all the lousy pirates in this thread would not be complaining about how hard it is. They'd be crippling ships in seconds.

Hold on, I didn't say majority, I said a large portion, which in my estimation is around 10 to 15%. Killing is way easier than pirating, it takes a lot longer to pirate someone than to kill them. No shields help in pirating players but it doesn't help that much.

 

[tagos]

As a pirate, I too won't some real consequences. As of right now the cops area joke, the only challenge comes from player bounty hunters. I look forward to the day piracy is actually challenging, but when that day comes it would also have to be more rewarding as well. Piracy is the second worst paying profession in the game(behind exploration), it needs to scale to bigger ships better and needs a more efficient scooping system.

There's already a healthy mix of professions in the game btw, in my normal haunt I see 4x as many traders as pirates, and probably around 8x as many bounty hunters.

Agree totally. I'm waiting for something like that.

 

[HectorW]

Then play solo or in a private group.
Problem solved.
.

No, its not

Why can't you get that it is the worst solution ?
You need traders in open or game will be even more empty and hollow. And there must be many more traders than pirates. So trade must be profitable and generally safe at least in secure systems.
Otherwise you will only pirate other pirates and game will die.

 

[InMemoriamSirocco]

I think the mechanic we have right now is working as intended.

However, pirates and bounty hunters need some equipment to mass lock their opponent, even if they are in a smaller ship.

Some kind of gravity well simulator that tricks the enemy ship's computer into thinking it is near a planet.

The FSD Inhibitor.

An internal module that fills up a slot from size 1 to 3, available in grades E to A, depending on what you want to invest. The bigger the size, the harder the module is to destroy (which would be a viable tactic for mass-locked opponents to get away - the module should be relatively easy to target and destroy, so it forces the mass-locked ship into combat). The higher the grade, the more ammo it has. Yes, ammo. It should have a limited source of "beacons" it shoots out.

Another piece of equipment would be the FSD Disruptor. Either a guided missile or a gun that takes up a hardpoint, maybe just a utility mount.... fired at a shieldless target, it causes the FSD to overload and malfunction, resulting in inceasing heat inside the ship, forcing the enemy ship to shut down the FSD drive to prevent taking heat damage.

A ten second cooldown would be needed before a restart of the FSD module would be safe again.


Again: Limited Ammo, and taking up valuable space.


Those would be the perfect toys for pirates and bounty hunters alike.

 

[Tigga]

Also worried about wings and players without a group. I hope we can have NPCs in our wing, though I don't know how that would work with pirates running NPC wings. You kinda need good fire control when pirating.

Disruptive mass certainly needs reworking, as does submission. I don't really think there's much to discuss here other than the details. It's dumb that no Type-x ship can ever run from an Asp that wants to kill it. It's dumb that no Cobra can ever pirate a Type-6 that has half a clue.

 

[Globusdiablo]

Sorry for not reading all 28 pages, but these are my 2 creds:

The only real option for a trader against a pirate is to run. No trader with any sense is going to pull over when some massively over gunned goon waves at them. Fair enough.

If you want to see traders in open play, they have to have a chance to run. Or you'll be pirating pirates before long. Is this what you want?

I fly trader in open play. Your story sounds like it could be me you were trying to interdict. I was throwing heatsinks and chaff all over the place. You interdicted me 3 times before I made it to port. Cat and mouse. I got away that time. But it was close.

So, in my opinion, the gameplay mechanic works as intended.

Let's hope there'll be traders to raid in open play in the future as well, eh?

 

[HectorW]

Well, you did it now. You forced me to prove it. Sandro Sammarco Lead Designer- Elite: Dangerous said of the 'Submit, Boost, FSD "...we are working towards fixing this exploit." in response . See his post #211 of the 'Interdiction Dodgers" Thread created on 18/01/2015 by Snakebite.
.
I have a caveat, I'm sure hw didn't mean it as a punishable offense, just that it goes against the design intent.

So what ? Is it official FD position ?

Even Dev can fart sometimes and regret it later. One word in forum post means nothing.
Show us official FD announcement about it.

And it doesn't matter anyway. Trader doesn't make game miserable for others, pirat/killer is.
If FD change the mechanics to promote psycho killer game - trade will die out, you will find yourself alone with you superior mechanics.

There are purely combat games, why don't you go there ?

 

[BEKTOP 3APEMOB]

Yesterday I was in the same situation as Globusdiablo (3 runs with chaffs and heatsinks), but on my third attempt to run my hull gave in.
You've demanded to drop 20t of precious metals. It's double the cost of my insurance - what do you think I'd rather do - run or drop the cargo?

Be reasonable - ask for 3-5 tons from a t-6 pilot or ask for 20t, but promise it would be a day pass and protection or something. Day pass would only work if you have some reputation though.

Then today you barely made away from me after I got into a Viper - I was satisfied. Would still try to hunt you down if I see you next time

 

[HectorW]

I hate this argument, the idea that if you do anything to tip the balance of piracy against traders, you'll just push them to solo. It insults traders that they can't handle any impact to their precious cr/ton/hr grind, and it assumes some people don't like the challenge of open.

What needs to be done is not to keep the status quo for the sake of traders, but to make sure it's fair for each side. The hard part of all this is, any buff to piracy also helps players who only want to kill. As it stands now, It's 10x easier to just blow someone up then to get 20% of their cargo.

there is enough challenge
you just want to force your play style on others with no incentives for them

and as I stated before - piracy should be much more profitable but with much more risk - there are excellent ideas in other posts here. But traders are essential for pirates and bounty hunters to exist, so trade must be profitable and safe in general.

if you expect that traders will risk millions cr/ x hours of play for you to have 15s of satisfaction - well, they will not, they are no stupid slaves for you to prey upon.


edit: to be completely clear - pirate should have advantage over trader, in comparable ships, but make it so trader would be robbed, killed once for 100 runs or so. If you make it so there is a 1 pirate on every trader with superior mechanics, you will kill trade and in consequence piracy and bounty hunting.
Think predator and prey, leopard has advantage over antelope but there thousands antelopes for 1 leopard. To many predators and prey die out, predators starve and die.
Balance. Everyone must have incentives to play.

 

[Joe Spivey]

Sorry for not reading all 28 pages, but these are my 2 creds:

The only real option for a trader against a pirate is to run. No trader with any sense is going to pull over when some massively over gunned goon waves at them. Fair enough.

If you want to see traders in open play, they have to have a chance to run. Or you'll be pirating pirates before long. Is this what you want?

I fly trader in open play. Your story sounds like it could be me you were trying to interdict. I was throwing heatsinks and chaff all over the place. You interdicted me 3 times before I made it to port. Cat and mouse. I got away that time. But it was close.

So, in my opinion, the gameplay mechanic works as intended.

Let's hope there'll be traders to raid in open play in the future as well, eh?

This is what it boils down to. Most traders are not PvP savvy, heck I bet most of them don't particularly want to be, but even so they have to have an option in a PvP encounter where they can come out on top (ie, get away with their cargo intact).

I think it was in fact Sandro who said that traders have the option of beefing their ships up with armour, weapons, countermeasures and making a show against the pirate. Fine in theory but he is thinking with the mind of a combat pilot. Even with all the best armour, all the countermeasures and the biggest guns it can carry a type 6 or a hauler is NOT going to have a chance, especially if the trader just isn't into PvP anyway.

The only practical solution for most traders is to escape. So, ok, fix this submit/boost/FSD exploit but if you don't replace it with something that gives the trader a chance to escape instead of fighting a battle they cannot win then all the little space trucks and vans will be tottering off to Solo and Private Groups and the pirates will be left playing with themselves.

It has been said many times before. If traders are wanted in Open Play then they have to have a chance of surviving there.

 

[Oddball_E8]

This is what it boils down to. Most traders are not PvP savvy, heck I bet most of them don't particularly want to be, but even so they have to have an option in a PvP encounter where they can come out on top (ie, get away with their cargo intact).

I think it was in fact Sandro who said that traders have the option of beefing their ships up with armour, weapons, countermeasures and making a show against the pirate. Fine in theory but he is thinking with the mind of a combat pilot. Even with all the best armour, all the countermeasures and the biggest guns it can carry a type 6 or a hauler is NOT going to have a chance, especially if the trader just isn't into PvP anyway.

The only practical solution for most traders is to escape. So, ok, fix this submit/boost/FSD exploit but if you don't replace it with something that gives the trader a chance to escape instead of fighting a battle they cannot win then all the little space trucks and vans will be tottering off to Solo and Private Groups and the pirates will be left playing with themselves.

It has been said many times before. If traders are wanted in Open Play then they have to have a chance of surviving there.

With better shields, armour and thrusters they DO have a good chance of surviving by escaping.

People are acting like if they fix this (because they've stated themselves that it is unintentional and they are going to fix it), then suddenly traders won't be able to escape and are somehow locked in a little box with the big nasty pirates.

That's just not true.
Traders can still run and still live as long as they learn how.
Get better shields and armour (don't put all your money into bigger cargo space) and learn how to do some very basic evasive maneuvers.

If you can't even do that much, then maby not even solo play is for you because that's the minimum effort to escape even NPC pirates.