Glaives (Hunter class ships) are overpowered and...

[Uiros Ueramos]

after a 1 month hiatus from ax combat, last night i had my first encounter with a glaive. it was later joined by a cyclops and a few scouts. not a problem.

then, just now, i was sent to the rebuy screen twice in a space of 5 minutes. first time, i got jumped by 3 glaives while checking a capital ship distress call. second time, i got interdicted in a thargoid controlled system by 2 glaives. their attacks were unrelenting. most damaging were the lightning strikes that recharge their shields. anything more than 1 glaive is too much for me. they are unlike any opponent in the game and it's suicide to encounter packs of them solo.

And there we have it.

One Hyper / Interdiction by a Glaive will be possible to escape only if you are a skilled CMDR and have the right build.

One Hyper / Interdiction by 2 or 3 Glaives will be impossible to escape even if you are a skilled CMDR and have the right build.

 

[Rubbernuke]

The people who say one thing, are not the people that say the opposite.

There are several views on every matter, just like in this one.

On one side, we have the CMDRs that like the new challenge no matter what, on the other the CMDRs that think the implementation (not the concept) of that challenge is flawed.

It is only natural not having a unanimous view on the matter.

Well it seems that way. Glaives as they are seem to break the over-reliance on OP Guardian tech and rigid meta. And as I said later on, some simply can't deal with uncertainty or change.

Its funny as elsewhere you have a thread about what to spend your credits on

And now you do, with a more challenging enemy and greater chance of failure / more rebuys.

And there we have it.

One Hyper / Interdiction by a Glaive will be possible to escape only if you are a skilled CMDR and have the right build.

One Hyper / Interdiction by 2 or 3 Glaives will be impossible to escape even if you are a skilled CMDR and have the right build.

While others seem to be fine with it- but, as you say...

It is only natural not having a unanimous view on the matter.

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

It is an odd situation …

• Super Fast
• Guardian Weapon Destruction Magic
• Lightning Shield Recharge
• FSD reboot missiles

It’s like … all these awesome brand new abilities on one ship … why would the Thargoids field anything else?!

Indeed. No sense in them having Scout or Interceptor class ships anymore.

They just need to put those mothership factories at full, building only Hunter Class ships.

Hunter Class Ships launched >>> Full Exclusive Production >>> Only swarms of Hunters >>> 2nd Thargoid War won >>> Humans Exterminated from the Milky Way

But from a gameplay perspective, it’s just too much on one “mid-range” ship. If they were just super fast (okay, maybe the FSD missile thing too) that might be reasonable - now there are interdictions where you can’t reasonably run - but adding the destruction of our best weapons AND rechargeable shields into the mix is just OP.

Exactly my point.

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

If you're going in to a maelstrom system and presumably in to the cloud itself, a new player will die after a few mins even if they reach the cloud. A new player will probably be killed by the newer interceptor interdictions and hyperdictions actually.

I think dying multiple times trying to get tissue samples from the caustic generators for example is much more egregious for new players, and many who aren't new. (edit and losing all the previous samples they might have spent ages getting)

My original post mentions nothing about newbies on Maelstrom systems. What sense is there in that ? From where did you dug up that idea ?

My original post implies talking about the changes that occurred to Evac/Salvage/Supply missions on Invaded/Alert systems, by the introduction of the Hunter class ships and their total disruption of such gameplay.

The glaives are annoying and dangerous. I like it.

Good for you. Others have different opinions on that regard.

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

Yeh, but you have to choose to go into the Maelstrom and then you build for it.

With the Glaives, you might have chosen to do something else entirely that up until now you were fine with but you have no choice about whether a Glaive shows up.

It’s like adding some DLC for a new end-game boss and then also dropping them in randomly in earlier levels.

I’m not arguing whether it’s survivable just that it unfairly increases difficulty and gates access / slows down access to elements of the game that people may have already been enjoying. And that seems like a [REDACTED] move on FDevs part.

Very well explained.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

But from a gameplay perspective, it’s just too much on one “mid-range” ship.

The Glaive is mid-sized but that's not necessarily the same as mid-range - in human ship terms, a combat-built FDL will massively outclass a multirole-built Anaconda in a fight, for example. I don't recall seeing anything either in-game or from Frontier implying it was supposed to be between a Scout and an Interceptor in anything other than size, though I could have missed something.

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

So game is too hard for new players? Don't go into those places!

That is not what is being discussed here.

I suggest a proper full reading of my original post.

 

[Kira Goto]

example. I don't recall seeing anything either in-game or from Frontier implying it was supposed to be between a Scout and an Interceptor in anything other than size, though I could have missed something.

GalNet stated its size is between a Scout and an Interceptor, but I think that was just in relation to physical dimensions and not combat capabilities.

If anything, the Glaive is so far removed from other Thargoid ships that I’m not sure they even can be compared to them.

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

I understand this, but at the same time (without Glaives as they are now) it seems a very rigid and conveyor belt like game that sticks too much to regulation. Do X, get Y but no more than that.

But that has always been Frontier's way !!...

I feel there is a gap between those who want predictability and those who want uncertainty in their games- (me personally) ED has been far too long with the former group and too little with the latter.

Of course!! A bloodthirsty kumo-burger-fed Pirate would think that way, right?

 

[Jack Winter]

Maybe scouts and interceptors are just automated ships, while the thargoids themselves prefer flying something faster, nimbler, and more offensive?

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

One Hyper / Interdiction by 2 or 3 Glaives will be impossible to escape even if you are a skilled CMDR and have the right build.

This shows that you have made up your mind and are willing to die on that hill. This is either hyperbole or just plain plain wrong.

It is what the CMs meant when they said we need to adjust our builds: Just insisting on previous build schemes and then calling "it is too hard! It is impossible! Frontier ruined it!" is not the way. Adapting is the way. There are already two known counters: ECM and shields (if they are dimensioned correctly).

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

i am yet to see glaive -diction myself and outside of mstrom i saw them only in czs with other commander. that leads me to speculate if perhaps their spawn rate couldnt be affected by how many goids did cmdr slay in the past. which if true would be amazing.

I would say it would be extremely gamey and totally unrealistic.

How would the Thargoids know of any CMDR's kill tally? That makes no sense.

otherwise glaive blocking your path unless you deal with it seems like a pretty good design for something that is supposed to get ahold of player, dont let go and hinder his actions.

I agree on the concept. Even their ship class name means that they were built to hunt and harass human ships. I have no problems with that at all.

I do have a problem, however, in the way that such hunt and harassment is being performed.

They have all available Thargoid tech and weapons, without any weaknesses, in a medium sized ship that is twice as fast as any other Thargoid ship and 99% of human ships, with the exceptions of striped-down-almost-paper-thin Fast Maelstrom Explorers / Racers. Hunter class ships have no concessions to balanced gameplay.

In a single 1vs1 Hyper / Interdiction, they can be killed with skill, but they also control the engagement almost at will, with very few exceptions.

In a 2 / 3 Glaives Hyper / Interdiction, they will not allow for any possibility of escape for any and all CMDRs that do not have a Fast Maelstrom Explorer or a Racer, IMHO.

I actually like the Hunter Class concept a lot. I just think that a revision pass for its abilities is very much in order.

i guess the guardian corrosion could be changed. i feel like an fsd booster shouldnt be completely toast after a ship prepared for a glaive wins its encounter. perhaps a temporal shutdown for guardian modules while in vicinity of glaive would be more fitting... or an adjustement of corrosion of internals... however glaive wrecking guardian weapons seems fine to me in sense of working as intended (probably)

IMHO, the idea of temporary shutdown would be more unpredictable to sort out by the CMDR.

I think that, if the Guardian Degeneration Field was to be kept, it should have less range and do less damage / second. That would alleviate the imbalance.

making an accout for glaive is not that costly adjustement for a well designed ax ship. unless you are flying small ship, which (most probably) should not have the ability to be a good all'rounder...

Agreed on the Small ships. But we are reaching a point were no Medium ships will be able to multirole AX Combat. Only Large ships might still, but the 6 Mod Shard Condas will be a thing of the past...

there is plenty to play with outside of glaive encounters. there are ways how to handle glaives. plenty balls to play with.
you control the buttons you press

That is correct only in theory.

I can stop going to AX systems and avoid the problem altogether. In that situation I am exerting a form of control. But it might be "control" forced under certain circumstances, which effectively is not control, but limitation.

If I do not stop going to AX systems, I will be at the mercy of chance every time I make a jump. It will not be a "you control the buttons you press" situation...

 

[DemiserofD]

Have people tried using more enhanced missile racks? Given that they don't have any hearts, it seems as if missile racks should do extremely well against them.

Missile racks also have very little distributor draw, so pretty much any ship should be able to fit at least a few. That should allow anyone to fight off a solo interdiction, and if they get a multiple interdiction, they could always just high wake away.

 

[tolm]

This shows that you have made up your mind and are willing to die on that hill. This is either hyperbole or just plain plain wrong.

It is what the CMs meant when they said we need to adjust our builds: Just insisting on previous build schemes and then calling "it is too hard! It is impossible! Frontier ruined it!" is not the way. Adapting is the way. There are already two known counters: ECM and shields (if they are dimensioned correctly).

The issue is that adapting to this requires either “throwing away” hard earned weapons, moving up a ship class to have more weapons in total because only half of them will be useful and/or having to stop and repair more often. All whilst trying to carry on doing things you previously were able to do rather than as a new, separate challenge.

I don’t see it as “too hard” per se but it is hella irritating and it restricts the diversity of both builds and approach: now you have to stay and fight and you have to use these weapons and you can’t use these ones as well unless you use a bigger ship.

That’s not fun and it doesn’t allow me to play the game how I want to - and how I have been able to thus far!

This ship existing and potentially engaging players via interdiction and CZs creates an unnecessary gate to getting into the lower tiers of AX combat scenarios. And, yes, I’m biased because those are the only ones I am capable of. I fully acknowledge that.

Moving goalposts that are already in place is an objectionable move on the part of a developer.

New goalposts (on a new pitch) I have no issue with.

 

[tolm]

Have people tried using more enhanced missile racks? Given that they don't have any hearts, it seems as if missile racks should do extremely well against them.

Missile racks also have very little distributor draw, so pretty much any ship should be able to fit at least a few. That should allow anyone to fight off a solo interdiction, and if they get a multiple interdiction, they could always just high wake away.

The issue is not the weapons to use but the lack of space for them. If I fit “all least a few” missile racks on my FAS I will only have one hardpoint left for whatever I actually wanted to do.

And now I also need an ECM for the FSD reboot missiles? So what do I drop for that? I‘ve already had to make hard choices for my 4 utility slots.

Basically, to allow for Glaives whilst still packing whatever you were going to use, you have to run a large ship. And assuming you still want some level of speed, that means a Cutter.

 

[DemiserofD]

The issue is that adapting to this requires either “throwing away” hard earned weapons, moving up a ship class to have more weapons in total because only half of them will be useful and/or having to stop and repair more often. All whilst trying to carry on doing things you previously were able to do rather than as a new, separate challenge.

I don’t see it as “too hard” per se but it is hella irritating and it restricts the diversity of both builds and approach: now you have to stay and fight and you have to use these weapons and you can’t use these ones as well unless you use a bigger ship.

That’s not fun and it doesn’t allow me to play the game how I want to - and how I have been able to thus far!

This ship existing and potentially engaging players via interdiction and CZs creates an unnecessary gate to getting into the lower tiers of AX combat scenarios. And, yes, I’m biased because those are the only ones I am capable of. I fully acknowledge that.

Moving goalposts that are already in place is an objectionable move on the part of a developer.

New goalposts (on a new pitch) I have no issue with.

Does it really stop you from using Guardian weapons entirely? Unfortunately I'm in my busy season so I haven't been able to play recently, but it seems to me that you could take a larger afmu, and repair your weapons one at a time as you continue to fight.

 

[tolm]

Does it really stop you from using Guardian weapons entirely? Unfortunately I'm in my busy season so I haven't been able to play recently, but it seems to me that you could take a larger afmu, and repair your weapons one at a time as you continue to fight.

I could, yes.

I could keep my FAS as is: one AX MC and three mod shards. If I get interdicted by a Glaive I will not be able to run so can chip away at it with the single AX MC (and the shards, for however long they lasts) and then arrive at the CZ with 50% hull plus destroyed or damaged weapons or a half empty AMFU … either way, probably the first thing I’ll need to do is dock and rearm/repair.

And if a Glaive turns up at the CZ I can do it all again.

I‘m not saying I can’t do that. I’m saying I don’t want to as I don’t find that fun … and changing the rules of the game such that I have to annoys me.

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

Yes. No more paper planes. I know I say that a lot. But honestly, I think that is a good thing. The war has become the high risk scenario it should be.

I agree partially. My Dolphin/Orca Evac ships were not paper planes, but I am pretty sure they won't be able to resist a Glaive.

I know you can argue this from multiple angles; there is always the git gud side that says AX and thus the war is endgame. Then there are those who cry for everything to be doable in paper planes. My position is somewhere in the middle; CMDRs like me, who had no interest in AX in the past but are very interested in the war had plenty of time to get in shape for business in the war systems. I did it in a few weeks, and at least I can handle myself, even if I am still very much a pleb and noob in all things AX.

You can also argue that setting the threshold too high for the war and, specifically, the Titan content, gates it from newbie CMDRs.

And while that is maybe true and the war and Titans are the central point of the current narrative, newbies are generally still very safe outside the war systems and have ample possibilities to get in shape for the war, or to just go about their business. Frontier have made sure that the entry threshold is lowered significantly, so... if you want to be part of the war: Git gud .

All it takes now is to get going and get in shape. And learn to build ships without minmaxing it paper plane style.

I never said that newbie CMDRs should be in Thargoid influenced systems. I mentioned newbie AX CMDRs, which refers to experienced CMDRs just starting to learn AX Combat (a bit like you a couple of months back...).

These two types are vastly different.

I think people tend to skim reading and jump to conclusions...

 

[DemiserofD]

I could, yes.

I could keep my FAS as is: one AX MC and three mod shards. If I get interdicted by a Glaive I will not be able to run so can chip away at it with the single AX MC (and the shards, for however long they lasts) and then arrive at the CZ with 50% hull plus destroyed or damaged weapons or a half empty AMFU … either way, probably the first thing I’ll need to do is dock and rearm/repair.

And if a Glaive turns up at the CZ I can do it all again.

I‘m not saying I can’t do that. I’m saying I don’t want to as I don’t find that fun … and changing the rules of the game such that I have to annoys me.

Wait, why can't you use the guardian weapons on the glaive? From what I've read, they work just fine, they just get slowly damaged over the course of the fight.

Okay, went back and reread what you said, voice dictating so it's kind of hard to edit, what I meant to suggest is, when your Shard cannons starts becoming damaged, and malfunctioning, you would start repairing one of them then. That way, it would be fully repaired and ready to go again by the time the others are getting more damaged, you start repairing a second one, keep fighting, and then when the third one is completely damaged you repair it. You should be able to keep two of your three Shard cannons functional at all times.

I am a little bit confused as to why you are using a single multi cannon, though. They are best at killing hearts, and Shard cannons are also extremely good at killing hearts.

 

[Ned Flandalorian]

Does it really stop you from using Guardian weapons entirely? Unfortunately I'm in my busy season so I haven't been able to play recently, but it seems to me that you could take a larger afmu, and repair your weapons one at a time as you continue to fight.

Trying to repair while in the instance simply doesn't work, the weapons stay at 0% while the AMFU ammo is consumed. Possibly having multiple AMFUs would work but that's hardly practical.

(It also triggers a bug where the HUD notification about the weapon malfunctioning starts spamming multiple times a second, continuing even after jumping out.)