Glaives (Hunter class ships) are overpowered and...

[Uiros Ueramos]

As I am severely limited in game I'd thought I would release this here - This is by no means the only ship, but it can outrun a Glaive and can ECM the initial missile. However I am unlikely going to get much combat time to test. Maybe it will help some people think about further possibilities. Whether it needs 2 off ECM is a moot point, just applying some testing as per pack hound defence. The Pulse laser was left on from previous testing. Its not essential Its just a fast ship with some offensive Xeno weaponry.

Its a work in progress - https://edsy.org/s/vP1boDB

Inspired by your build, and only for pure AX Restoration and Escape, I am thinking of something like this: https://edsy.org/s/vmuMPPq


EDIT: Typos...

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

Why would i? Spectrum analyzing has been a tool to unlock various things(triangulation too) in the game along with people doing exploring, and the "hand waving" (three blue circles) was a very literal hint as to do the things in a wing (Orthrus/interceptors/restoration). -you know the one with a circle and three blue dots.

Most people just concluded that it had to do with Guardian technology, since most of its architecture, constructs and symbols use triangular shapes or have triangular cross sections.

So, no. It is not clear at all.

The importance of the Orthrus was even on galnet, so they do help us when it is really needed.

That might just be unrelated. The hints about Orthrus were that they were important to win Alert systems.

Otherwise yes, it is on players to explore and figure things out.

Without proper hints or signs like information on planetary sites or beacons, nothing much can come of it.

But sure, fdev could explain and tell about every mystery in the game and then give everyone every module and ship, because that would give everyone reason to explore and use their noggin. -that was not serious of course. Elite has been a game of exploration since '84 and i am thankful we don't have giant "solution here" arrows everywhere.

IIRC, the original Elite, from 1984, was a game of trading and combat, not exploration.


EDIT: Typos...

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

I have suffered another interdiction, yesterday, by a Glaive, in Bi Dhorora.

This time I was in my AX Krait MkII (2x C2 Mod Shards + 2x C3 EN AX MCs + 1x C3 LR TV Beam) and decided to change plans and be more aggressive as soon as we dropped.

I used FA OFF + Silent Running + Heatsinks to make it more difficult to target lock me. It made a difference, since it had a harder time hitting me.

Tried to boost and bump it to reduce hull while shooting. I had no luck in that, but was I able to use the shards a couple of times before their destruction and it lowered the Glaive's hull by 30-40%. Then the MCs did the rest. Still got zapped twice and again tried bumping it to drop its shields, but couldn't. I still managed to destroy it and left with 79% hull.


EDIT: Typos...

 

[Ydiss]

This works both way. Allow everything possible with low effort and maximum efficiency is also imo a bad move in any game. You clearly now must be well prepared to be able moving safely in conquered systems, and is no longer possible use maximum efficiency builds because you need now think more about safety. I see it as very good move from FDev.

You'd think all this but they're actually very low skill cap to kill. Deleting their ability to destroy guardian modules and reach silly speeds wouldn't change that. They're a gear check, plain and simple.

At any rate, I'm sure there'll be a CG soon where Aegis provide another utility module to add to the current bloat that cancels these out. It's just getting a little bit silly (and I hope FD can check this a bit and start to reign all these modules into fewer, simpler options). It doesn't bother me that much though; they're way weaker than any interceptor (except a cyclops if you're running a frag boat obv) and actually, finally, we have AX combat that doesn't demand stupidly long guardian unlocks to defeat. You just need AXMCs and a decently upgraded ship.

Part of me just wants more stuff like this tbh. But they are a bit overtuned for anyone who doesn't want to fight them. You can escape using heat sinks and/or SR but it's still a bit OTT for the majority of players.

 

[Planewalker]

You'd think all this but they're actually very low skill cap to kill. Deleting their ability to destroy guardian modules and reach silly speeds wouldn't change that. They're a gear check, plain and simple.

At any rate, I'm sure there'll be a CG soon where Aegis provide another utility module to add to the current bloat that cancels these out. It's just getting a little bit silly (and I hope FD can check this a bit and start to reign all these modules into fewer, simpler options). It doesn't bother me that much though; they're way weaker than any interceptor (except a cyclops if you're running a frag boat obv) and actually, finally, we have AX combat that doesn't demand stupidly long guardian unlocks to defeat. You just need AXMCs and a decently upgraded ship.

Part of me just wants more stuff like this tbh. But they are a bit overtuned for anyone who doesn't want to fight them. You can escape using heat sinks and/or SR but it's still a bit OTT for the majority of players.

Perchance akin to multilimpet controllers, hmm?

"Xeno Scanning Matrix" or "Honk-a-Ton" xD

 

[Martind Forlon]

You'd think all this but they're actually very low skill cap to kill. Deleting their ability to destroy guardian modules and reach silly speeds wouldn't change that. They're a gear check, plain and simple.

At any rate, I'm sure there'll be a CG soon where Aegis provide another utility module to add to the current bloat that cancels these out. It's just getting a little bit silly (and I hope FD can check this a bit and start to reign all these modules into fewer, simpler options). It doesn't bother me that much though; they're way weaker than any interceptor (except a cyclops if you're running a frag boat obv) and actually, finally, we have AX combat that doesn't demand stupidly long guardian unlocks to defeat. You just need AXMCs and a decently upgraded ship.

Part of me just wants more stuff like this tbh. But they are a bit overtuned for anyone who doesn't want to fight them. You can escape using heat sinks and/or SR but it's still a bit OTT for the majority of players.

Yes, they are "very low skill cap to kill", even I with my poor AXI skills can kill Glaive with my Clipper prepared for operations in war area. Imo thing is that player should learn few things and be able prepare little better his ship before entering war area with aim to safely return. Personally I think that there is needed little more adapt other "human" systems the same way, i.e. anarchies very dangerous, high security much safer ... and result will be much more diverse and interesting environment. So not make all easy and accessible with minimum effort, but to learn check local environment and be adequatly prepared. Changes like this will very likely not happen, but it's my dream about this game . I know that I go off-topic here, so that's all.

 

[SergMx]

...this is why:

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First, I would like to ask for everybody that posts opinions on this thread, to restrain itself to only talk about this matter and to have a polite approach to the situation to avoid rudeness and name-calling...

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Now that this request has been made, I can focus on the matter at hand.

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I am an average AX pilot that never got involved in killing Thargoids until the Bubble Invasion begun. The only time I had previously destroyed them was because of being attacked by Scouts when visiting the Pleaides, back in 2018. I was even hyperdicted several times there by Interceptors and I never attacked them, finding that "First Contact" experience fascinating and although the Interceptors were intimidating, they never seemed threatening.

Since early January 2023, because of the Bubble Invasion, I started developing my AX Combat skills and learned the AX procedures regarding maneuvers, ship builds and engineering, to get involved in AX CZs. I went from only destroying Scouts and running away at the sight of Interceptors, to soloing Cyclops and Basilisks with FAOFF Cold Orbiting techniques armed with just AX Missiles/MultiCannons/LR TV Beam in Space AX CZs, as well as killing Medusas and Hydras after getting Guardian Weapons and joining other CMDRs in battle.

Currently, after having killed my 3 first Glaives in a planetary AX CZ and getting interdicted by another one in space, I can safely say that Glaives (Hunter Class > surelly more variants to come), despite being somewhat more vulnerable than Interceptors, are actually more dangerous than them.

"Why is that?", you might ask incredulously. And I say it is because, in most cases, while you have two options against Scouts and Interceptors (engagement or retreat), you really only have one against the Glaives, which is to fight.

This is because Glaives (Hunter Class) have all the good capabilities of Thargoid tech without almost any of the weaknesses, contrary to the Scout or Interceptor class ships.

Let's check its characteristics:

1. Extremely Fast (CMDRs reported between 750 and 800m/s at peak speed) >>> Only dedicated highly engineered Fast Maelstrom Explorers or Pure Racers can escape by running away faster;
2. FSD Reboot Missiles >>> All targets hit are forced to fight because they are unable to Low or High Wake;
3. Mass Lock Factor of 20 >>> All ships with the exception of T10, Imperial Cutter, Federal Corvette and Anaconda are unable to Low Wake, even if they have miraculosly avoided the FSD Reboot missiles;
4. Shields >>> Almost always on (currently 90% of the time the shields are on), negating the only weakness - the hull - the Glaive might have;
5. Frequent salvos of 4x Caustic Missiles (currently salvos are launched every 5-10 seconds) >>> Ships hit are always suffering caustic damage, even if they are able to burn it off, since they are being hit all the time;
6. Frequent Lightning Attack, due to its ability to approach the CMDR at ease >>> All ships, fast or slow, are hit most of the time and get almost permanent random reboots in their modules;
7. Guardian Degeneration Field >>> Within 1,5km (?) - therefore almost always, due to its speed - all your Guardian Modules (except Guardian Hull Reinforcements that have no Integrity) get 1-2% damage/second and became useless in 60s or less;
8. Are present in Maelstrom, Control and Invasion systems, often in packs of 3, doing Hyperdictions, Interdictions and fighting in AX CZs.

So, what are the consequences of having all these abilities and no weaknesses (except weak hull, that gets negated because of its shields being always on) ?

1. Specialized Fast Maelstrom Explorer or Pure Racer builds, optimized for escaping any trouble, will have only one option which is to run (SR+HS compulsory), as long as they can be faster than 800m/s. If not, they are dead;
2. Experienced AX CMDRs, with AX Meta Builds and Guardian Weapons, have to kill them in 60s or less, high wake (very difficult) almost as fast or sacrifice Guardian Weapons to have a few AX Missiles/Multicannons in reserve to deal with them. If not, they are dead;
3. Average AX CMDRs, with Specialized Human AX Builds (exclusively AX Missiles/Multicannons), have the same options as mentioned above, except they will not suffer degeneration from their weapons but will probably react worse to the situation;
4. Newbie AX CMDRs, with unoptimized AX builds and very little experience, will be unable to escape, unable to avoid damage and get killed fast. 90% chance of death;
5. Multirole ships. Only very experienced and cool-headed CMDRs will survive (SR+HS compulsory). 95% chance of death;
6. Mission Runner ships. Only very experienced and cool-headed CMDRs will survive (SR+HS compulsory). 95% chance of death;
7. Passenger/Refugee ships. Only very experienced and cool-headed CMDRs will survive (SR+HS compulsory). 95% chance of death;
8. Trader ships. Only very experienced, cool-headed and very lucky CMDRs will survive (SR+HS compulsory). 99% chance of death;
9. Explorer ships. Only very experienced, cool-headed and very lucky CMDRs will survive (SR+HS compulsory). 99% chance of death.

If any CMDR gets Hyperdicted/Interdicted by Scouts or Interceptors, they have the choice to run or fight. A Basilisk will make running almost impossible for most ships, but there is always the possibility to High Wake and survival will depend on the skill of the CMDR.

If one gets interdicted by a Glaive you do not have much choice, because, due to the FSD Reboot missiles and very high MLF, Low Wake becomes an impossibility and High Wake almost as much, denying survivability to any other than very specific Fast Maelstrom Explorer, Pure Racer or Human AX builds piloted by very experienced CMDRs.

As such, Glaives (Hunter Class) are now effectively denying Thargoid influenced space to +90% of the builds and probably to a even bigger percentage of CDMRs.

So, after all of these problems have been exposed, what can FDev do to avoid a MASSIVE exodus of CMDRs from their beloved 2nd Thargoid War ?

Either:

1. Reduce speed of all current (Glaives) and future Hunter class ships to allow for some ships other than Fast Maelstrom Explorer/Pure Racer builds to have a chance to escape >>> 600m/s top speed;
2. Remove FSD Reboot missiles ability, to allow for some chance of High Wake to some ships other than Fast Maelstrom Explorer/Pure Racer builds;
3. Reduce frequency of shield activation so that Glaives have some time with its hull exposed;
4. Reduce frequency of salvos of 4x caustic missiles so that the CMDRs' ship is not hit every 5 seconds;
5. Reduce range and damage/second of Guardian Degeneration Field to allow for 2-3 minutes of use for Guardian Weapons.

Or:

• Make them only available in Maelstrom and Control systems. If a veteran AX CMDR wants a challenge it is that CMDRs' choice to seek for it, not to be imposed to the rest of the CMDRs who are trying to run Refugee Missions/Salvage and do not seek insane AX challenges.

This is my personal view and opinion on the matter and I know that many hardcore veterans will intervene saying "Where is the challenge after that nerf?"...

That is why I explained that such content should be, either generally available and catered to the abilities of a sufficiently large number of CMDRs, or restricted to areas where super-duper CMDRs can go and have their kicks...

Opinions on this are welcome...

EDIT: Typos and layout

I strongly disagree with the author.
I play on a not very good joystick and despise flying with a mouse and keyboard.
Because of this I can not fly in cold orbit, many years of training and I can not. Can't kill anyone quickly above Basilisk.
I fly a Cutter and prefer to use Earth weapons.
So Orphs and Hunters are the easiest and fastest money can buy.
When I fly a ground rescue mission with revinants I'm always happy when a Hunter intercepts me.
He has no swarms, no hearts.
Fast and easy 4.5 million is always a joy.

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

I strongly disagree with the author.
I play on a not very good joystick and despise flying with a mouse and keyboard.
Because of this I can not fly in cold orbit, many years of training and I can not. Can't kill anyone quickly above Basilisk.
I fly a Cutter and prefer to use Earth weapons.
So Orphs and Hunters are the easiest and fastest money can buy.
When I fly a ground rescue mission with revinants I'm always happy when a Hunter intercepts me.
He has no swarms, no hearts.
Fast and easy 4.5 million is always a joy.

But you pilot a very specific build, that is just perfect for Orthrus and Glaives.

A lot of other people don't, because they focus on Interceptor combat.

And you really shouldn't disagree with my original post, since the changes, suggested to the Glaives, wouldn't affect your build or kill rate in any way. It would remain the same for you and less shaddy for non-combat builds and for CMDRs with Guardian weapons.

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

At any rate, I'm sure there'll be a CG soon where Aegis provide another utility module to add to the current bloat that cancels these out. It's just getting a little bit silly (and I hope FD can check this a bit and start to reign all these modules into fewer, simpler options).

 

[St0rmFury]

Well for 1, the last 2 new modules we got are dual function.
1) Pulse wave neutraliser also acts as a shutdown wave neutraliser
2) Pulse wave xeno scanner also functions as a regular xeno scanner

 

[SergMx]

But you pilot a very specific build, that is just perfect for Orthrus and Glaives.

A lot of other people don't, because they focus on Interceptor combat.

And you really shouldn't disagree with my original post, since the changes, suggested to the Glaives, wouldn't affect your build or kill rate in any way. It would remain the same for you and less shaddy for non-combat builds and for CMDRs with Guardian weapons.

I understand you and I don't agree with you.
In my opinion there are only 2 types of battle with interceptors.

1. Sport hunting. You pick a signal with the level of danger you want. Cold orbit and guardian weapons.
This is sport, not war.

2. War: AH conflict zones, whirlwinds, super cruise intercepts, etc.
Here as a rule ships are not suitable for sport hunting because here you do not choose the level of danger.
This is war and you must be prepared for the worst-case scenario.

That is, a very specific assembly (no shield, guards weapons, cold orbit) is not at me but at you.

Normal assembly is when even the most inexperienced pilot always gives a chance to survive.

P.S. Basically this whole topic is about fitting hunters with a specific assembly for sport hunting.

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

Well for 1, the last 2 new modules we got are dual function.
1) Pulse wave neutraliser also acts as a shutdown wave neutraliser
2) Pulse wave xeno scanner also functions as a regular xeno scanner

Good to know. Finally some congregation of tech and simplification of Utilities.

But there is a catch for sure. Probably higher power drain?

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

I understand you and I don't agree with you.
In my opinion there are only 2 types of battle with interceptors.

1. Sport hunting. You pick a signal with the level of danger you want. Cold orbit and guardian weapons.
This is sport, not war.

2. War: AH conflict zones, whirlwinds, super cruise intercepts, etc.
Here as a rule ships are not suitable for sport hunting because here you do not choose the level of danger.
This is war and you must be prepared for the worst-case scenario.

That is, a very specific assembly (no shield, guards weapons, cold orbit) is not at me but at you.

Normal assembly is when even the most inexperienced pilot always gives a chance to survive.

P.S. Basically this whole topic is about fitting hunters with a specific assembly for sport hunting.

So, from what I can understand from your text, if CMDRs use Cold Orbit and Guardian Weapons they are just doing a Sport. So, they deserve disrespect.

If CMDRs don't, they are fighting a War. They don't deserve disrespect.

The purpose of any Army in any War is to use the best training, the best logistics, the best strategies, the best tactics and the best equipment to be as effective as possible in destroying/conquering the enemy. Nothing else matters. And Guardian Weapons and Cold Orbit are exactly that.

So, no. You are mistaken. No Sport involved. Just War. And the best way to win it.

 

[Kallipar]

Good to know. Finally some congregation of tech and simplification of Utilities.

But there is a catch for sure. Probably higher power drain?

Normal xeno not enhanced xeno scanner

 

[Kallipar]

So, from what I can understand from your text, if CMDRs use Cold Orbit and Guardian Weapons they are just doing a Sport. So, they deserve disrespect.

If CMDRs don't, they are fighting a War. They don't deserve disrespect.

The purpose of any Army in any War is to use the best training, the best logistics, the best strategies, the best tactics and the best equipment to be as effective as possible in destroying/conquering the enemy. Nothing else matters. And Guardian Weapons and Cold Orbit are exactly that.

So, no. You are mistaken. No Sport involved. Just War. And the best way to win it.

One comment is that cold orbiting was not fdev sanctioned. They did change to support it, that is a good thing.
However, I suspect they didn't like how a ship could hit above its weight. Hence imo the Glaive.

 

[Aunty Sledge]

I agree with the OP, running a ship full of guardian modules/weapons is zero fun when a Hunter shows up. Can't avoid it, can't fight it, can't escape it. Feels like bad implementation of game content from this seat.

However, I do wonder if FDev are creating a problem so that they can then solve it with some sort of blocking utility module later on down the line.

They are certainly over powered at the moment, and seem to be designed for interdiction, which is an awful mechanic to begin with and just annoying when it can't be countered. They are brutal enough in CZs, but in interdictions they are fun-police dialed up to 11.

 

[SergMx]

So, from what I can understand from your text, if CMDRs use Cold Orbit and Guardian Weapons they are just doing a Sport. So, they deserve disrespect.

If CMDRs don't, they are fighting a War. They don't deserve disrespect.

The purpose of any Army in any War is to use the best training, the best logistics, the best strategies, the best tactics and the best equipment to be as effective as possible in destroying/conquering the enemy. Nothing else matters. And Guardian Weapons and Cold Orbit are exactly that.

So, no. You are mistaken. No Sport involved. Just War. And the best way to win it.

During war, the main goal is to win.
If I do it easily on a regular Cutter, then my build and my weapons are more effective than yours.

(In The Nine Princes of Amber, Corwin stabbed someone from behind and said. This is war, not the Olympics.

If you think your weapons are more effective than Earth's, then I don't understand the problem. It's even easier for you than for me.

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

Normal xeno not enhanced xeno scanner

That is just stupid then. Xeno Scanner is worthless.

Oh, well !! I shouldn't have been expecting better from FDev...

 

[SergMx]

I agree with the OP, running a ship full of guardian modules/weapons is zero fun when a Hunter shows up. Can't avoid it, can't fight it, can't escape it. Feels like bad implementation of game content from this seat.

However, I do wonder if FDev are creating a problem so that they can then solve it with some sort of blocking utility module later on down the line.

They are certainly over powered at the moment, and seem to be designed for interdiction, which is an awful mechanic to begin with and just annoying when it can't be countered. They are brutal enough in CZs, but in interdictions they are fun-police dialed up to 11.

When the Orphs and Waterworts showed up, the developers clearly made it clear.
Throw away the weapons of the Guardians!

Remember the movie Wrath of the Titans? You have to win like humans! And use Earth weapons!

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

One comment is that cold orbiting was not fdev sanctioned.

FDev gave us tools. The players invented the tactics to maximize the use of those tools. FDev should have expected that and be happy with it. Period.

They did change to support it, that is a good thing.

If they didn't, it would be another stupid bratty move from FDev.

However, I suspect they didn't like how a ship could hit above its weight. Hence imo the Glaive.

It is not for them to like it or not.

They have put the tools and the rules/conditions in game. The players used those tools, within the constraints made by FDev itself, and they found ways to maximize their own impact. All within the rules of the game.

FDev should be happy about the player's resourcefulness, not be irritated about it.