Glaives (Hunter class ships) are overpowered and...

[Morbad]

I've yet to encounter a Glaive, but I always thought it silly that past Thargoid vessels were so slow and generally non-competitive with the best humanity had to offer, and I don't think I'd automatically consider them overpowered even if they could manage upwards of a kilometer persecond and adopted tactics that would give experienced gankers a run for their money.

By most accounts, Thargoid technology, even post integration of human tech with Guardian is, on the balance, significantly superior. Their better vessels should categorically outclass ours, and all but the weakest examples should be problematic.

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

If it was a knee jerk they could just remove the items. And I will rest my case, cold orbiting and Shard condas, whether you use one or not will be diminished.

I am still killing Scouts, Cyclops, Basilisks, Medusas, Hydras and the occasional Glaive with Cold Orbiting techniques in AX CZs...

They did not remove the pre released items this week from people inventory. So that goes against the knee jerk principle.

What pre-released items?

I am no great fan of the old fdev, but I this iteration they are doing the best they can and I appreciate their current approach.

I have nothing against FDev or ED, quite on the contrary. I love the game and FDev's ability in making it. Specially the Star Forge, its 1:1 scale, its objects' Newtonian movements and the flight physics.

But I do have reserves about the way they do some decisions concerning gameplay loops, content and balancing.

In regards to Cold orbiting it was discussed by Arf and a developer on a live stream about how it wasn't intended gameplay. And also how they went with the flow once it had been established.

A perfectly logical and rational response then:

"We didn't expect it !! It was a surprising development. Some players are smart and resourceful. Good for them and for us. More varied gameplay !! "

 

[Tutezaek]

I've yet to encounter a Glaive, but I always thought it silly that past Thargoid vessels were so slow and generally non-competitive with the best humanity had to offer, and I don't think I'd automatically consider them overpowered even if they could manage upwards of a kilometer persecond and adopted tactics that would give experienced gankers a run for their money.

By most accounts, Thargoid technology, even post integration of human tech with Guardian is, on the balance, significantly superior. Their better vessels should categorically outclass ours, and all but the weakest examples should be problematic.

Lets say this: im bad at the game, i consistently, even if sometimes with a lot of damage, can evade glaives using an unshielded 500m/s dolphin that isn't optimal for this.
The things aren't op, they require different techniques.

 

[Rubbernuke]

You are just confirming that, unlike Chess, ED's rule book is changed by FDev on a whim.

Wut? This is spoon level thinking. Of course the game changes- its changing in response to us and what FD have planned. ED 4.X is a totally different beast to 1.x in all regards.

Did you whine about BGS changes, engineering changes etc when FD altered the rules and how we approach things? This is no different.

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

HEICS Nemesis 1839
First steam powered gunboat.
View attachment 356995
And the ships of line were hauled off for scrap.

You forgot to mention that it took them quite a few decades of continuous operational service, before they were decommissioned and scraped.

Please do go and read a bit more about the pace of evolution in the late period of the Age of Sail.

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

Developing an atomic bomb or the copper example are 'sea changes' (use of term deliberate) which are not gradual.
The bomb killed thousands in an instant rather than 100 of thousands as the alternative.

I will admit that you are correct regarding the Atom Bomb. Not on the Copper Bottoms.

Let me be clear we are on the same page in regards that the Glaives are OP.

We are clear.

I predicted and built the posted ship prior to patch 15.0! due to the clip shown on the livestream. It was obvious and on Discord I also stated that these would be problematic especially in groups. That's even the reason for the name as I consider them Hornets in behaviour.

A great analogy and a prudent preparation.

 

[Kira Goto]

Now, ignoring any balancing concerns to be had about the Glaive, I want to comment on this point -

"Changing the Rules of Engagement" is what I previously referred to as either progressive or disruptive improvement, all within the possible technological state of the nations involved (therefore within the realm of possible >>> Rules of Real Life).

You are applying HUMAN reasoning and limits to an extremely advanced species that has existed for millions of years, and travelled space for at least a million years, probably longer. Do you expect them to play by human rule sets and concepts? I don’t think so…

There is also nothing to indicate that the Glaives and/or Guardian neutralizer field are anything new at all. It is possible, and in fact quite likely, that they simply were not deployed until the conflict escalated further.

Now should the Glaives have the Guardian neutralizer field in gameplay? That point can be argued for CZs(especially), since Medusas and Hydras basically make the human AX weapons completely obsolete, and at least the latter is guaranteed to show up at the end. (Dunno how the AX multi and missile fare against Basilisks but I don’t need to use them against the high-end interceptors to know they’d be nigh useless unless basically everyone shot at the same target with them.)

Perhaps they could tone it down, if it has to be kept. If it takes 1/2% of integrity away per second, that sounds as intense as the neutralizer field of the Maelstroms, and that sounds a bit off for a (relatively) small ship like the Glaive is, even if it’s limited in range.

And perhaps allow module reinforcements to counteract its effect to an extent. As I mentioned elsewhere, currently they do absolutely nothing against the anti-Guardian field.

Or Frontier will eventually use the unclassified relic’s existence to excuse new weapons being made, that are not affected due to being hybrid tech, because that’s what they do.

 

[Felix DiCestria]

You forgot to mention that it took them quite a few decades of continuous operational service, before they were decommissioned and scraped.

Please do go and read a bit more about the pace of evolution in the late period of the Age of Sail.

It takes the brass a while to cotton onto the fact that the "rules" have changed. Eventually they wind up on the scrap heap too.
And it happened again with HMS Dreadnought, and again with HMS Argus.

Spend less time reading, more with boots in the mud.

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

Wut? This is spoon level thinking. Of course the game changes- its changing in response to us and what FD have planned. ED 4.X is a totally different beast to 1.x in all regards.

~50% agreed.

Did you whine about BGS changes

No. I was totally out of that discussion. Did not interested me, frankly.

engineering changes

No, I did not whine about them. I was one of those that demanded them. I was glad about the changes for the better.

when FD altered the rules and how we approach things? This is no different.

I understand what you are saying.

But when they do alter the game and it is objectively worse or unbalanced, or if I find their changes illogical or stupid, you can rest assured I make my opinion known.

This is one of those cases. And, consequently I did post what I think about it in this thread.

View attachment 357001

I already have.

But Glaives remain unbalanced and should be changed to within certain more stringent constraints.


EDIT: Typos...

 

[Ned Flandalorian]

There is also nothing to indicate that the Glaives and/or Guardian neutralizer field are anything new at all. It is possible, and in fact quite likely, that they simply were not deployed until the conflict escalated further.

This isn't logical thinking at all. They've attempted many, many incursions in prior years and were always repelled by our ships using guardian weapons (Salvation wiped out hundreds of their ships in Cornsar and the Pleiades, you can still see the evidence firsthand) - why would they not use a countermeasure that would have basically assured them victory instead of being defeated over and over again?

 

[SergMx]

I've yet to encounter a Glaive, but I always thought it silly that past Thargoid vessels were so slow and generally non-competitive with the best humanity had to offer, and I don't think I'd automatically consider them overpowered even if they could manage upwards of a kilometer persecond and adopted tactics that would give experienced gankers a run for their money.

By most accounts, Thargoid technology, even post integration of human tech with Guardian is, on the balance, significantly superior. Their better vessels should categorically outclass ours, and all but the weakest examples should be problematic.

That's not the point here. In fact, hunters are very weak and easily and quickly killed. But they are harder to kill with gausses and in cold orbit, because the whole point of cold orbit is that the interceptor cannon can't hit you.
They're just different. And some people don't like that. I, for example, don't like the fact that my turret cannons against a swarm can't automatically shoot at the swarm themselves. But I'm not throwing a tantrum on the forum.

 

[Felix DiCestria]

The biggest problem is with Evac/Supply non-combat ships that used speed for escaping Hyper/Interdictions. They are dead now.

That's not what Op Ida or PDES are saying.
If you find them tough stick to the Alert systems till we have a better grasp of them.

 

[SergMx]

stop calling Cold Orbiting techniques a Sport.

I don't think you need to tell me what to do.

I am well aware of what a fight and a war without rules and a sports duel with strict restrictions on weight, weapons, and time.

 

[Rubbernuke]

~50% agreed.



No. I was totally out of that discussion. Did not interested me, frankly.



No, I did not whine about them. I was one of those that demanded them. I was glad about the changes for the better.



I understand what you are saying.

But when they do alter the game and it is objectively worse or unbalanced, or if I find their changes illogical or stupid, you can rest assured I make my opinion known.

This is one of those cases. And, consequently I did post what I think about it this thread.



I already have.

But Glaives remain unbalanced and should be changed to within certain more stringent constraints.

Then by your own words you adapted to changes imposed on you from FD. Thargoids became pedestrian and tame, so FD changed them up and now you have to change how you approach things.

 

[Morbad]

Did you whine about BGS changes, engineering changes etc when FD altered the rules and how we approach things?

I'm still whining about the subjectively bad ones!

Please do go and read a bit more about the pace of evolution in the late period of the Age of Sail.

Plenty of near overnight paradigm shifts in relative military capabilities. Ceremonial warfare for captives and prestige, along with the presumption of divine aid, was good enough for the Aztecs, until they met Cortes, who didn't play by their rules. Flintlocks were good enough for the Jeoson...until they encountered rifles. Wooden ships of the line (not to mention the line of battle itself) were good enough for almost everyone...until the first battles against ironclads demonstrated how vulnerable they were. Pre-dreadnoughts were good enough until the Dreadnought made them all obsolete. The strategic bomber would always get though...until radar guided SAMs convinced everyone that submarine launched ballistic missiles were the best way to have a credible nuclear deterrent.

Sometimes there is a radical new technology that prompts these shifts, but more often it's demonstration of a new application of existing stuff.

Even looking at just the game as precedent, there have been such shifts in the past. The introduction of Engineering is the most obvious example...non-Engineered vessels became obsolete (for the purpose of fighting Engineered ones) literally overnight. And that shift was followed by a series of others, both as new applications and new 'metas' were explored within the new sets of rules, and as the rules themselves were refined. The discovery and exploitation of Guardian tech was another.

The Glaive seems to be a pretty mild example of this, not some ridiculous outlier. Thargoids, sick of having human vessels dance around them with impunity, took a scout, gave it more powerful drives, some guns from an interceptor, and changed tactics a little.

 

[Ned Flandalorian]

Thargoids, sick of having human vessels dance around them with impunity, took a scout, gave it more powerful drives, some guns from an interceptor, and changed tactics a little.

More correctly, they gave it:

• an anti-guardian tech field
• the lightning attack which unlike the interceptors it can use at will to recharge its shield
• caustic missiles which it can launch 4 at a time per person in the instance
• FSD disruptor missiles

These aren't really "tactics" so much as just cramming in as many weapons as possible, then making it superfast to prolong the engagement.

As a contrast, a good example of the thargoids actually showing intelligence and changing their strategies is the way scouts now subtarget modules. They're still using the same equipment (after being fixed), just in a more effective way.

 

[Kallipar]

I am still killing Scouts, Cyclops, Basilisks, Medusas, Hydras and the occasional Glaive with Cold Orbiting techniques in AX CZs...



What pre-released items?

See last Witchspace news for the details.

I have nothing against FDev or ED, quite on the contrary. I love the game and FDev's ability in making it. Specially the Star Forge, its 1:1 scale, its objects' Newtonian movements and the flight physics.

But I do have reserves about the way they do some decisions concerning gameplay loops, content and balancing.



A perfectly logical and rational response then:

I am assuming you are quoting from the stream.
Regardless they acknowledged cold orbiting and allowed it, for a while at least.

It is quite clear that the Glaive is the first in a new line of ships. They can see/attack cold running ships. For now cold orbiting in its current form is possible. Unless ofc you get jumped by a few Glaives.

 

[SergMx]

More correctly, they gave it:

• an anti-guardian tech field
• the lightning attack which unlike the interceptors it can use at will to recharge its shield
• caustic missiles which it can launch 4 at a time per person in the instance
• FSD disruptor missiles

These aren't really "tactics" so much as just cramming in as many weapons as possible, then making it superfast to prolong the engagement.

As a contrast, a good example of the thargoids actually showing intelligence and changing their strategies is the way scouts now subtarget modules. They're still using the same equipment (after being fixed), just in a more effective way.

So you think they descended from the scouts?
Ha, ha. Then it's out of the question.

Go to the site ANTI-XENO and look at any assembly - against the scouts. And on such a build any man, I emphasize ANY man, will quickly and easily kill a hunter.

 

[Ned Flandalorian]

Cold-orbiting is primarily used for staying close to interceptors while reducing their shield between hearts, when doing combat in large groups.

• It's not used on targets that don't have hearts (Orthrus/scouts).
• It's not used when soloing; you can just fly in a straight line, the interceptor will follow and won't fire as long as you keep 3km distance.
• It's not used when attacking; that's what heatsinks are for, a thermal vent beam is not anywhere near effective enough to keep your ship under 20% while firing weapons.

Players aren't fighting glaives in large groups, and they don't have shields that take a long time to decay so I don't understand how their capabilities have anything to do with cold-orbiting - it's simply not a tactic that anyone sensible would attempt to use on them, because if it worked it would serve no purpose towards defeating them.

 

[Kira Goto]

This isn't logical thinking at all. They've attempted many, many incursions in prior years and were always repelled by our ships using guardian weapons (Salvation wiped out hundreds of their ships in Cornsar and the Pleiades, you can still see the evidence firsthand) - why would they not use a countermeasure that would have basically assured them victory instead of being defeated over and over again?

If we go by that logic, why would they only have gradually brought the tougher interceptor variants - which were hinted at being significantly older - in as the conflict escalated, instead of immediately? If the requirements for Guardian logs are anything to go by, at least Medusas already existed at that point in time and were involved in the conflict.

Sure, maybe the Thargoids only figured out they could convert Guardian technology to their own gain instead of outright destroying it after the Proteus Wave fired, to create the neutralizer field, but then I’d have to ask - if they weren’t certain that they could subvert the weapon, why would they have allowed it to be built in the first place?

They’re obviously not dumb and had the capability to jump right to the Bright Sentinel - or above the site itself - and start wrecking stuff, but that never happened.

Maybe you don’t believe it, but I see repeated signs of them not showing their full hand until we cause things to get kicked up a notch. For warnings to be promptly ignored so we can shoot up more Thargoids.

But this isn’t a lore thread in and on itself anyway.