Guardians Discussions

[Thatchinho]

Well, i'm personally more on the road that thargoids are the descendants of the guardian AIs, so to speak.

Look at it in this perspective:
We know the guardians could alter DNA, create living beeings for special purposes.
They were realy advanced in biology and it was no shame to use it.
In their future, they created AIs, used them with no concerns. The technology group linked itself with them, used global networks etc. (It's said that Thargoids have some sort of colective mind > maybe a development step from the network. It was their way to communicate, the best way. Why not use it in another form, more advanced and independant.)
But after some time the guardians split in two groups, fighting each other. The AIs were teached from this war that the hosts, the guardians, are to vulnerbale and they created their own bodies to exist without a need of a vulnerable host/implant.

So my personal thought about the thargoids:
They ARE the AIs, or what they are now.
They destroyed the guardians entirely, maybe. Because ALL of them could be a potential threat to them. Or the old story: Live is imperfect, makes mistakes, emotional (religious), to slow in developement and a threat because fear and so on.
It would explain why they act so passively, when you don't harm them. They doing their job. We are not of interest, for now and in this moment. Effectiveness all in all. Like an AI would act, like an AI "learned" to act.
They search something, they need to destroy a ship for that? They do it. They see guardian technology? They want to destroy it.

That would be very terriying.

The Guardians didn't use AIs without concern though. The war that wiped them out was fought over the AIs. So, just to outline in brief:

-Basic AIs were created
-Guardians developed brain implants which allowed them to connect themselves directly to their network.
-The Implants provided extra processing power and allowed the AI to develop sentience.
-This resulted in an exponential increase in the development of science & technology
-More Guardians got implanted to keep up.

Guardians society then split roughly along the lines of those who were implanted and those who didn't accept the new technology. The latter became a religious movement which eventually exiled all of the Guardians who had accepted the technology.

The AIs at this point were still virtual beings that only existed as part of the network. However they wanted to be able to exist independently and sought to achieve this. The religious group turned to violence, not just to prevent it, but also against the Guardians who accepted the AIs.

This led to the second civil war which ultimately wiped out the Guardians. (Although there's also the 'Foe/Adversary' which may have been responsible for their final eradication.)

Anyway, on a few of your main points...

Yeah, a FTL network of minds could potentially be the basis for a collective mind. There's also the exiles to consider here- we don't know what happened to them, but we do know they were implanted, and hence could also connect directly to networks, and also act as hosts to AIs.

If the Thargoids were the Guardian AIs then major parts of Guardian society embraced, supported and fought for them. Why would the AIs act against all Guardians?

 

[Erid]

The OP around this is here:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...9-The-Canonn?p=4751754&viewfull=1#post4751754

Also, there's further info on the FP of the old thread. (It's a little way down in the third post on the thread, and is under the heading "There could be a message hidden in the Obelisks spectrogram":

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...logy-and-other-mysteries-Thread-10-The-Canonn

There's various other discussions around it through both Thread 9 & 10.

Correct me if I am wrong but i thought that recording a barcode take a lot of time.

 

[chuci]

Lots of history from Ram Tah

zomg it's Deus Ex in SPAAAAACE

 

[Thatchinho]

Correct me if I am wrong but i thought that recording a barcode take a lot of time.

Yes and no. No in the sense that it's quick to start and get some of a barcode. Yes in that people have recorded for a long time and seen no sign of the pattern repeating, so it doesn't appear that anyone's yet been able to record the whole thing. That is of course assuming that there is a 'whole thing' which plays and then repeats. - this might not be the case.

 

[Erid]

Yes and no. No in the sense that it's quick to start and get some of a barcode. Yes in that people have recorded for a long time and seen no sign of the pattern repeating, so it doesn't appear that anyone's yet been able to record the whole thing. That is of course assuming that there is a 'whole thing' which plays and then repeats. - this might not be the case.

Funny that it's looks like a simple task - stay still and record, but it can take a lot of time and no one know exactly how much. I saw several recordings of barcode and don't see repeatable patterns. Maybe it's time for new recording...

 

[Thatchinho]

Funny that it's looks like a simple task - stay still and record, but it can take a lot of time and no one know exactly how much. I saw several recordings of barcode and don't see repeatable patterns. Maybe it's time for new recording...

Yeah, agreed. Think we need some more info about each recording too - site, obelisk, time of recording, was the obelisk scanned, what artefact combo was it scanned with, was it scanned with the artefact combo for the Ram Tah data.

 

[Shockbot]

Well, i'm personally more on the road that thargoids are the descendants of the guardian AIs, so to speak.

Look at it in this perspective:
We know the guardians could alter DNA, create living beeings for special purposes.
They were realy advanced in biology and it was no shame to use it.
In their future, they created AIs, used them with no concerns. The technology group linked itself with them, used global networks etc. (It's said that Thargoids have some sort of colective mind > maybe a development step from the network. It was their way to communicate, the best way. Why not use it in another form, more advanced and independant.)
But after some time the guardians split in two groups, fighting each other. The AIs were teached from this war that the hosts, the guardians, are to vulnerbale and they created their own bodies to exist without a need of a vulnerable host/implant.

So my personal thought about the thargoids:
They ARE the AIs, or what they are now.
They destroyed the guardians entirely, maybe. Because ALL of them could be a potential threat to them. Or the old story: Live is imperfect, makes mistakes, emotional (religious), to slow in developement and a threat because fear and so on.
It would explain why they act so passively, when you don't harm them. They doing their job. We are not of interest, for now and in this moment. Effectiveness all in all. Like an AI would act, like an AI "learned" to act.
They search something, they need to destroy a ship for that? They do it. They see guardian technology? They want to destroy it.

That would be very terriying.

See the Story of Mass Effect 1 - 3 .

"The geth ("Servant of the People" in Khelish) are a race of networked artificial intelligences that reside beyond the Perseus Veil. The geth were created by the quarians as laborers and tools of war. When the geth became sentient and began to question their masters, the quarians attempted to exterminate them. The geth won the resulting war, and reduced the quarians to a race of nomads.The history of the geth's creation and evolution serves as a warning to the rest of the galaxy of the potential dangers of artificial intelligence and to the legally enforced, systematic repression of artificial intelligences throughout galactic society."

 

[acidburn2k20]

For now it can't be read because it don't have repeated messages.
I called it "a post code" ("a barcode" is fine too).

Spoiler

https://i.imgur.com/x5IGn49.jpg

the spoiler looks like a DNA test results "yes bob your mother was a thargoid, but the DNA test reveals you dad is the Milk man from Zaonce"

 

[lorrad]

Has there been any thought at all regarding the site out at SKAUDAI ?

It just seems odd having one lonely little site way out there.
Has there been any survey work in that direction? (In other words, I'm thinking of cruising out that way. But do not want to reinvent the wheel...[smile])
(Assuming the Guardians had a wheel )

I'm out there now; initially to see if there have been changes since 2.4 but it seems the ruins out here have not been examined at all other than having been located. Two more systems were reported here that don't appear on the Canonn data sheets: PRUA PHOE UG-B D86, 3 sites on C2, and 2 on C3 and PRUA PHOE TS-B D252, not been there yet.

Worth noting the Sacaqawea Space Port in Skaudai CH-B d14-3, a nice local base for operations.

No work it seems have been done on any of them. Could these site belong to the exiles, sure a long way from the rest. Could they cough up something different? Would exiles run a separate network? Are they just more of the same, or a stepping stone in the Guardian story?

----------------
Spoke too soon, the Canonn sheet https://ruins.canonn.technology/# was updated today with two more systems in the area and nice new graphics with the sites all worked out but its all just more of the same.

 

[Meme the little Thargoid]

Exactly!
It could be plausible that the thargoids are in some sort the guardian AIs, OR they are both. The exiled guardians and AIs as one.
But what we realy know for now: The thargoids react to guardian technology.
If they aware of the guardians as a race is in question or if they only react to this specific sort of energy signature, because it is unknown.
The first seems more logical.

 

[Thatchinho]

Exactly!
It could be plausible that the thargoids are in some sort the guardian AIs, OR they are both. The exiled guardians and AIs as one.
But what we realy know for now: The thargoids react to guardian technology.
If they aware of the guardians as a race is in question or if they only react to this specific sort of energy signature, because it is unknown.
The first seems more logical.

Yes, but there are alternatives. Allow me to present one of them.

The reaction may be because Guardian tech was used against them before.

Consider;

Two reference points are used by the Thargoid tech:

- Merope

- Col 70 Sector FY-N C21-3

This has been established for a while.

Col 70 is locked to independent cmdrs, but it is not locked to all of humanity. For example, Wreaken Construction have bases in Col 70.

So while we independent cmdrs are unable to go to Col 70 Sector FY-N C21-3, it's pretty much unthinkable that those with access would have known it's relevance but not been there.

That leaves the only option that some of humanity already know what is in Col 70 Sector FY-N C21-3.

Now one thing possibly not that well known about that particular system is that it is closer to what appears to be the centre of the Guardian bubble than the first system in which ruins were discovered.

That's all pretty much fact... into speculation:

So, given the comparative distance the possibility is definitely open that there was a Guardian site there.

What's the relevance of that possibility?

Well, the Guardians were experts in biological warfare. Which is what we used against the Thargoids.

It's been suggested that Merope was ground zero for the Mycoid. Perhaps Col Sector 70 FY-N C21-3 was the launch point.

An INRA base.

Using Guardian technology.

It would explain a lot of things.

 

[CMDR Dreamstate]

Yes, but there are alternatives. Allow me to present one of them.

The reaction may be because Guardian tech was used against them before.

Consider;

Two reference points are used by the Thargoid tech:

- Merope

- Col 70 Sector FY-N C21-3

This has been established for a while.

Col 70 is locked to independent cmdrs, but it is not locked to all of humanity. For example, Wreaken Construction have bases in Col 70.

So while we independent cmdrs are unable to go to Col 70 Sector FY-N C21-3, it's pretty much unthinkable that those with access would have known it's relevance but not been there.

That leaves the only option that some of humanity already know what is in Col 70 Sector FY-N C21-3.

Now one thing possibly not that well known about that particular system is that it is closer to what appears to be the centre of the Guardian bubble than the first system in which ruins were discovered.

That's all pretty much fact... into speculation:

So, given the comparative distance the possibility is definitely open that there was a Guardian site there.

What's the relevance of that possibility?

Well, the Guardians were experts in biological warfare. Which is what we used against the Thargoids.

It's been suggested that Merope was ground zero for the Mycoid. Perhaps Col Sector 70 FY-N C21-3 was the launch point.

An INRA base.

Using Guardian technology.

It would explain a lot of things.

I like this... so basically, you're saying INRA used information on biological warfare from the Guardians 150+ years ago to create the Mycoid virus (the "Contengency") in order to exterminate them?

Hmmm that would throw into doubt the possibility that the Guardians are the Thargoids creators - but there is nothing to support it solidly (them being the creators) - so this could well be why the Thargoids hate Guardian technology - they may have been almost exterminated by the Guardians when the Guardians were expanding their bubble - and when the Guardians had almost destroyed each other, perhaps the Thargoids then chose to finish them off - for good?

If that is the case... it would be a better reason for hating the Guardians than merely turning on their creators because of "reasons"...

Perhaps it is a blend of both? This is getting interesting...

Edit: And you know what would also be interesting? "The Return" title doesn't mean the Thargoids... it could mean... *drum roll*... the Exiles returning (late 2.4 of course)? We knew the Thargoids were always going to come back because of so many teases, the UAs, UPs, but would we forsee the Exiles returning to their ancestral homes after a million years on the run from the Thargoids (whom truly despise and hate them)? Everyone assumed "The Guardians" patch was all about ship-launched fighters - no one had any idea it was about the Ancient Ruins with a race called "The Guardians"...

 

[Thatchinho]

I like this... so basically, you're saying INRA used information on biological warfare from the Guardians 150+ years ago to create the Mycoid virus (the "Contengency") in order to exterminate them?

Hmmm that would throw into doubt the possibility that the Guardians are the Thargoids creators - but there is nothing to support it solidly (them being the creators) - so this could well be why the Thargoids hate Guardian technology - they may have been almost exterminated by the Guardians when the Guardians were expanding their bubble - and when the Guardians had almost destroyed each other, perhaps the Thargoids then chose to finish them off - for good?

If that is the case... it would be a better reason for hating the Guardians than merely turning on their creators because of "reasons"...

Perhaps it is a blend of both? This is getting interesting...

Edit: And you know what would also be interesting? "The Return" title doesn't mean the Thargoids... it could mean... *drum roll*... the Exiles returning (late 2.4 of course)? We knew the Thargoids were always going to come back because of so many teases, the UAs, UPs, but would we forsee the Exiles returning to their ancestral homes after a million years on the run from the Thargoids (whom truly despise and hate them)? Everyone assumed "The Guardians" patch was all about ship-launched fighters - no one had any idea it was about the Ancient Ruins with a race called "The Guardians"...

Well, I'm saying that it's a possibility that should be considered, and so far it seems to make a lot of sense of things.

My biggest concern with the hypothesis of the Thargoids being Guardian descendants (AIs, Exiles, etc.) has always been that the Guardians were very advanced in biological warfare, yet we, despite not being so advanced on that front we beat them using biological warfare. And that's not counting the ~2MYears worth of further development the Guardian descendants would have had.

And I see where you're coming from on The Return, and it would be an interesting twist, but I think it's probably just the Thargoids on this occasion.

I still think the Exiles would represent something far far beyond anything we've encountered. They were the Guardians that had neural implants and embraced the technolgical singularity. The exiling may have had some impact but their rate of scientific and tech advancement was in a positive feedback loop and accelerating exponentially. And that was 2 Million Years ago. It's entirely likely that they've advanced so far that both we and the Thargoids are completely insignificant to them.

 

[CMDR Dreamstate]

Well, I'm saying that it's a possibility that should be considered, and so far it seems to make a lot of sense of things.

My biggest concern with the hypothesis of the Thargoids being Guardian descendants (AIs, Exiles, etc.) has always been that the Guardians were very advanced in biological warfare, yet we, despite not being so advanced on that front we beat them using biological warfare. And that's not counting the ~2MYears worth of further development the Guardian descendants would have had.

And I see where you're coming from on The Return, and it would be an interesting twist, but I think it's probably just the Thargoids on this occasion.

I still think the Exiles would represent something far far beyond anything we've encountered. They were the Guardians that had neural implants and embraced the technolgical singularity. The exiling may have had some impact but their rate of scientific and tech advancement was in a positive feedback loop and accelerating exponentially. And that was 2 Million Years ago. It's entirely likely that they've advanced so far that both we and the Thargoids are completely insignificant to them.

I like the thoery, it is sound

Another idea!: I think if they (the exiles) are that advanced, then they may even be hiding near the event horizon of a black hole (or many) - the closer you get, the slower/faster time unravels - for what purpsoe, who can say? Massive speculation here, but if they still do exist and are amazingly beyond us, then making home at black holes under a cloak may be the way to evolve further and advance (albeit slower than the rest of the universe - since 100-200 years to them living by them may mean 1,000,000 years of time passing in normal space) - they would literally be watching the universe evolving around them, watching nebulas exploding thousands of times per-their-second in the distance and watching creation happen in fast-forward. In this manner, perhaps they could have the technology to keep a watchful eye on the galaxy and, perhaps, the Thargoids? Crazy idea

 

[Dedhed]

Thanks Thatchinho for the links to previous posts along these lines. I wonder if the OP for this page - Ozric - might put some pertinent info up on the front page such as this https://ixalon.github.io/elitedangerous/ which shows the symbols on the obelisks.

 

[CMDR Davanix]

Not much to add myself (seems it has all been somewhat covered) however for a space fairing race that was way more advanced then us humans to just wipe eachother out indefinitely seems odd, i mean yes war can kill all however everyone has backup plans in place (like us with colonia) not everone would have faught in this war much like not everyone fights in human wars, everyone has outcasts who ventured into the void never to be seen again but that doesn't mean extinction just missing...... If us humans trived this long during our wars and even our mass nuclear earth (which i beleive is what sent us to other planets in lore? Correct me if im wrong) i am very doubtful the guardians dont remain..... Somewhere in the galaxy still alive and kicking even if it is just a planatary colony of cannibals and nut crackers....

 

[Erid]

Thanks Thatchinho for the links to previous posts along these lines. I wonder if the OP for this page - Ozric - might put some pertinent info up on the front page such as this https://ixalon.github.io/elitedangerous/ which shows the symbols on the obelisks.

Still waiting for CMDR who can solve this stuff
btw I think this visualisation have some little error and lost 2 frames in end (i think), but looks like this error don't change meaning of code itself.

 

[Chesso]

I wonder if there is a link between the obelisk markings and the thargoid patterns? They are both roughly round Been trying squinting at the obelisk paterns

 

[Dedhed]

the spoiler looks like a DNA test results "yes bob your mother was a thargoid, but the DNA test reveals you dad is the Milk man from Zaonce"

Considering this quote by CMDR acidburn2k20 along with the image supplied by Clanga

Spoiler

http://i.imgur.com/1Tp4lJg.png

and this from Erid

For now it can't be read because it don't have repeated messages.

I called it "a post code" ("a barcode" is fine too).

Spoiler

https://i.imgur.com/x5IGn49.jpg

Made me curious, so I went searching and found that they really do look similar. This image is: Whole human karyotype depicted by ideograms

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

[Thatchinho]

I like the thoery, it is sound

Another idea!: I think if they (the exiles) are that advanced, then they may even be hiding near the event horizon of a black hole (or many) - the closer you get, the slower/faster time unravels - for what purpsoe, who can say? Massive speculation here, but if they still do exist and are amazingly beyond us, then making home at black holes under a cloak may be the way to evolve further and advance (albeit slower than the rest of the universe - since 100-200 years to them living by them may mean 1,000,000 years of time passing in normal space) - they would literally be watching the universe evolving around them, watching nebulas exploding thousands of times per-their-second in the distance and watching creation happen in fast-forward. In this manner, perhaps they could have the technology to keep a watchful eye on the galaxy and, perhaps, the Thargoids? Crazy idea

It's certainly an interesting idea for real life, and definitely something I'm going to give some thought to!

There's no sign of time dilation in-game though, so I'm figuring that unfortunately it's a write-off game wise.

However, witchspace/hyperspace offers an alternative. How time works in hyperspace isn't completely clear, but it doesn't appear to correlate directly with time in normal space. Time displacement is mentioned as a side effect of miscalculations with early jump tech.

The things that Halsey described encountering still seems the best match for the Exiles extrapolated for 2 Million Years:

https://community.elitedangerous.com/en/galnet/uid/57023a099657baf74c71f6e8