Here's What G5ing Your Gear Will Cost You

Why is it an issue? Should engineering be mandatory?
They present a challenge in having much tougher shields and armour than the lowest level, and use better, harder hitting, weapons. They can be beaten, but not by just standing there and firing at them, as unengineered our CMDR is certainly not 'tanky' enough to ignore the encounter.

Of course, if engineering follows on the same tack as the base game, by the time a player has G5'ed everything the NPC opponents may as well be cardboard cut-outs...
The toughest NPCs in the game can be defeated by most players (I've yet to see anyone say otherwise) in the 150k suit with G1 weapons.

This is an issue. It's unrelated to this topic. It is, however, directly linked to the upgrade process. But there's no point discussing NPC difficulty if the feedback on the upgrade process is about how the upgrade process could be made better. You're saying the upgrades aren't needed but we're not saying they are; we're not talking about the quality of the upgrades and whether they are or are not worth it (they actually are, up to a point of the process). Whether the rewards for the process are adequate or not is irrelevant when considering how fun the process of getting them is.

And if the best argument to advocate a game process to remain untouched (and so vouch for its quality) is to say "you don't have to do it" then that's an extremely unconvincing argument.

It is the most repetitive argument I see here. It disproves nothing of what the OP states. I have no idea what the motivation is to try to argue against players giving feedback to make part of the game more fun. If you're worried that it is too fast to upgrade then we're all on board with that. Time isn't the issue - we're happy for it to take time. Longer than how long it takes now.

It's what we have to do - and the lack of things to do that we'd like to do and how repetitive that has become after just two short weeks - to get the upgrades that is the issue. We want that process to be better designed, more appropriately designed. That's it. It's about making the game better, not easier. We want it harder! Just not repetitive.

Why is that so difficult to process to the point that arguments about two weeks and "don't do it" have to occur?
 
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Engineers now not a grind? Well that is a very refreshing take on the matter 😋
as I said before (if you bothered taking the time to read) this is before engineering costs for suits and weapons are taken into account.

Are you purposely being blind and not reading replies to your inane comments?

Did you also forget that they had to revamp engineering ships twice to get it to a halfway acceptable stage and even then you admit right there that engineers are still complained about being a grind.

again, 100x the mats, and ten times the time taken is such a dumb move on Fdevs part.
 
The toughest NPCs in the game can be defeated by most players (I've yet to see anyone say otherwise) in the 150k suit with G1 weapons.

This is an issue. It's unrelated to this topic. It is, however, directly linked to the upgrade process. But there's no point discussing NPC difficulty if the feedback on the upgrade process is about how the upgrade process could be made better. You're saying the upgrades aren't needed but we're not saying they are. Whether the rewards for the process are adequate or not is irrelevant when considering how fun the process of getting them is.

And if the best argument to advocate a game process to remain untouched (and so vouch for its quality) is to say "you don't have to do it" then that's an extrmeley unconvincing argument.

It is the most repetitive argument I see here. It disproves nothing of what the OP states. I have no idea what the motivation is to try to argue against players giving feedback to make part of the game more fun.
I was not making any effort to disprove the OP's point... But thank you for suggesting it!

But, as a straight question - why should the upgrade process be made better?
The OP spent a lot of time 'grinding' to give us valid information WRT upgrades - which even I acknowledged said effort as it is useful.

So why has it to be improved? To speed up the process? Wouldn't it be fabulous that some real challenges were faced in pushing to the fabled G5?

This isn't being confrontational (as you are already aware that words have no inflection and are easily misinterpreted!) - read it as a few politely asked questions, please ;)
 
So why has it to be improved? To speed up the process? Wouldn't it be fabulous that some real challenges were faced in pushing to the fabled G5?
This has been covered already in the thread.

Speeding it up isn't the reason. Could you explain why you have to ask that when I just said in the post you quoted that making it take longer is desirable and I said exactly what we want changes to achieve?
 
as an example, I have been doing last weeks CG collecting bounties.

I play about 2 hours a day farming pirates til about 10m in bounties (which btw are bugged and its giving me 8x the bounty reported on the kill :ROFLMAO: ) and collecting engineering mats.

When I get full of mats I go trade them - doing this for around 12 hours in the last week has let me max nearly every type of manufactured mat, enough for 10 ships worth of upgrades, along with data mats from scanning the pirates and other ships to and from the haz res.

thats 12 hours for 10 ships worth of mats or more.

If I needed raw mats I could go mining for a similar amount of time and get plenty, or run out to common farming sites for them in a similar amount of time.

so around 24 hours of play time, not gaming the system but playing normally.

Between the bounties and the profits from mining I could easily afford at least 5 ships and gear, and upgrade them to all max grade 5 specs and still have over half the mats left.

And this "mod" says that suit engineering isnt a grind :ROFLMAO: and again, thats before the costs of engineering access or upgrades :ROFLMAO:
 
This has been covered already in the thread.

Speeding it up isn't the reason. Could you explain why you have to ask that when I just said in the post you quoted that making it take longer is desirable and I said exactly what we want changes to achieve?
I quoted the full post you had made at the time...
You edited further content in...
Excellent 🤷‍♂️

ETA: which is a tactic that is pretty common here...
 
It's gonna be impossible to balance the engineering grind until relogging for fun and profit is removed from the game.

I appreciate your effort and I'm not criticizing your methods. It is the alpha and your results are invaluable.

If there are exploits that can speed up the process, then they will be used to measure the time it takes. Any complaint that it takes months will be retorted with "only 2 weeks if you do it right"

Until we have someone repeat this process organically, we can not know how long it will actually take to do this.
Or, maybe fdev could get us a "relog" binding that saves us a few clicks.
 
I quoted the full post you had made at the time...
You edited further content in...
Excellent 🤷‍♂️
Fair enough, ignore that last question. Me being quickfire McGraw.

But you do have your answers now (and it has been covered with lots and lots of detail in the thread). (Actually, I'll edit in a bullet summary)..

  • Allow gathering materials directly via combat - acceptance criteria for this would be that progress can be made entirely via combat specifically for items that are purely for combat (admittedly, that's most of the items we can upgrade).
  • The above change needn't remove the existing methods - they're suplementary and fine as they are (and quite fun in isolation, but not in huge doses)
  • Allow gathering materials more efficiently via mission rewards
  • Change the requirements so that there are fewer bottlenecks like MIs. This isn't a good part of the process, it's just obviously a way to gate everything else but the trader isn't helpful with this at all.
  • My personal request: Allow all materials to be traded at the bar
  • Reduce RNG significantly (prime culprit is the MIs)
  • Gate unlocks via relevant activities - G5 weapons could very well only be available after you've proved yourself in combat for enough time to warrant it. This should be progressed via combat.
  • It's fine to gate upgrades to specific items by enforcing that we use those specific items (i.e. if you want to upgrade the TK Aphelion to G2, you need to use it a certain amount first, more if you want to go to G3 and so on)
  • With the above in place, control the time it takes to achieve "Full G5" by ranks and then change the current material cost to a single transaction (like Guardian modules).
    • This significantly mitigates the fact that there is a current huge list of items per G5 upgrade - there's an end to it to achieve, that changes everthing
  • Further purchases of the upgrade cost credits (like guardian modules)
  • Conditional request: If the above two points are refused, then don't make slotting in Enginered modules permanent. This will be horrible, it's just so obvious. If they are allowed (and replacing a weapon with upgrades just costs credits) then absolutely keep the proposed permanence of Engineer modules - this will be a nice credit sink and that's an acceptable cost to the player.
  • Pipe-dream 1: Allow the progression model to be controlled via specific, fun and engaging missions that link up over the course of the upgrade path.
  • Pipe-dream 2: Revamp navy missions to follow something similar, implement ground navy missions - give us a navy contact in councourse to handle this process - this should be a set of procedurally generated missions but ones that are hand-crafted (like Guardian module sites are hand crafted - they're awesome)
  • Pipe-dream 2a: Tie in the upgrade process to this instead
  • Pipe-dream 3: Do something like all of this to Engineers and make it uneccessary to relog for anything
  • Pipe-dream 3a: Delete reloging as a thing (make it not work for resetting materials)

Ultimately, the goal should be:

  • Allow us to progress through the uprade process with as many varied activities as we can, with as fewer repetitive loops as possible
  • Allow one of those activities to be combat, because I think that's an absolute no-brainer for any combat game with combat upgrades.
  • Gate the upgrade process so that it takes us time to fully unlock everything
  • Reduce or remove the RNG element of success (if we succeed, we should win what we want to win) but enhance the trader to mitigate the times when RNG just has to happen (fair enough that not all settlement should contain the exact same materials every time you visit - that's understood. But the randomness should be reduced and that is absolutely possible)
  • Plan to add in iteratively more fun and engaging (and challenging) activites for us to enjoy in order to follow through the upgrade path (that is to say, give us more stuff to do). Appreciate we're in Alpha and that this is something that will take time and not be instant.
I think that's covered most of it. I think I've probably missed a few things.
 
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Fair enough, ignore that last question. Me being quickfire McGraw.

But you do have your answers now (and it has been covered with lots and lots of detail in the thread). (Actually, I'll edit in a bullet summary)..
If Frontier removed relogging as the exploit it is (in my perception) the OP would have taken considerably longer!

But, never mind, I don't wish to be accused of 'derailing' the topic further so will gracefully retire from the topic...
 
1. You should be able to upgrade combat items, by doing combat activities. You should upgrade the Artimes suit by turning in exploration activities or by exploring. The Maverick suit, by turning on or off outposts etc and turning in those missions. Somehow tie the activity you are doing, the mission you turn in, with the suit you are wearing and building exp for those suits, tools, and weapons.

2. When this thread started, I knew the regular cohorts will soon be here telling us the grind is in our minds and we should play as they play and enjoy our Sidewinder gear for two years when most of us have an hour to play 3-4x a week.

3. Rebooting the game is not gameplay and don't tell me I don't have to do that and play the game as you play. IDC how you play.

I've played this game since launch and watched quite a few friends leave and never come back due to the grind. It's what Elite is known for. You can have a grind, but hide it. I love the missions in EDO and if doing all these fun out post missions, planet POIs missions, CZ would gradually upgrade my gear over time. It can be lots of time, but I'm not rebooting the game, I'm playing the game. I'm doing missions, switching systems to do the same missions, but with a different sky box and planet lighting because EDO is cool. It's a great addition to EDH. With the grind Elite just throws it in your face. You need these items to upgrade and the best way to get them is rebooting the game. Enjoy gamer, FYI we love you!
 
There’s simply NO WAY that engineering a tiny, tiny little costume should required MORE materials than a goddamn Corvette. It should - of course - require far FEWER materials, even if those materials were harder to find in order to make it more difficult / take longer.

The entire premise of Odyssey seems to be viewing the on-foot capabilities as an “upgrade” (or at least equal to) to the starship gameplay: with MORE grind required than for ship-based activities and an INSANE amount of power attributed to individual commanders in the name of “balance” so that Joe Bloggs in his little spacesuit can fight a Star Destroyer.

It’s ridiculous, completely unrealistic and has no place in the Elite universe.
 
If Frontier removed relogging as the exploit it is (in my perception) the OP would have taken considerably longer!

But, never mind, I don't wish to be accused of 'derailing' the topic further so will gracefully retire from the topic...
As I promised, I edited that post with my full list of summarised "things we'd like". I may have missed some, some are just my own opinion and I do always only speak for myself.

But I cover relogging there. Relogging is an aberation of game play. It must be deleted. But things need to change before that can happen. And I think you'll find Fdev agree with a lot of that (or else Bruce was lying?)

That's a case in point by the way. Very few of us want reloggin to be a thing. It's almost universally agreed. Having it removed would make a lot of things take a whole lot longer for some of us. Yet we want it removed. I think it's fair to say we don't just want things faster. And I think that's the misconception some others have whenever they see threads like this.
 
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Added this to my list above:

  • It's fine to gate upgrades to specific items by enforcing that we use those specific items (i.e. if you want to upgrade the TK Aphelion to G2, you need to use it a certain amount first, more if you want to go to G3 and so on)
 
Added this to my list above:

  • It's fine to gate upgrades to specific items by enforcing that we use those specific items (i.e. if you want to upgrade the TK Aphelion to G2, you need to use it a certain amount first, more if you want to go to G3 and so on)
using items for the purpose they are used for is a good gating mechanic as you do it just by playing the game.
 
I was not making any effort to disprove the OP's point... But thank you for suggesting it!

But, as a straight question - why should the upgrade process be made better?
The OP spent a lot of time 'grinding' to give us valid information WRT upgrades - which even I acknowledged said effort as it is useful.

So why has it to be improved? To speed up the process? Wouldn't it be fabulous that some real challenges were faced in pushing to the fabled G5?

This isn't being confrontational (as you are already aware that words have no inflection and are easily misinterpreted!) - read it as a few politely asked questions, please ;)
As long as the fabled G3 isn't needed to experience the bulk of gameplay - I'm fine with it.
 
But I guess we know how it will play out again. The meta-grinders power their gear to 11 and in 1 or 2 weeks they pretty much can own the average player in open making the whole MP premise pretty pointless. We'll get another round of troll "open only" initiatives to generate forum salt and fun PvP is something rather had to be elsewhere. In time the NPCs will have to be buffed because many players have their OP gear assembled and complain it's all too easy and it will be a bulk change for all NPCs with only player rank mitigating the bulletsponge but this time I guess more player will feel the bulletsponge on them and either grudgingly grind through or come to the forum and complain.
In two years FD will maybe address some of the issues.
 
There’s simply NO WAY that engineering a tiny, tiny little costume should required MORE materials than a goddamn Corvette. It should - of course - require far FEWER materials, even if those materials were harder to find in order to make it more difficult / take longer.

The entire premise of Odyssey seems to be viewing the on-foot capabilities as an “upgrade” (or at least equal to) to the starship gameplay: with MORE grind required than for ship-based activities and an INSANE amount of power attributed to individual commanders in the name of “balance” so that Joe Bloggs in his little spacesuit can fight a Star Destroyer.

It’s ridiculous, completely unrealistic and has no place in the Elite universe.
I do agree that upgrades (we don't actually know what the engineering is gonna cost yet, but we can guess they'll likely be too heavy) are too time costly or requiring relog exploitation and that more and different paths to acquiring materials is required.

However the 'it shouldn't cost more material' argument doesn't hold water. By this logic then, ship engineering mat requirements should be tied to hull mass or module size in some way.

I mean there no way that engineering my tiny Sidewinder should require as much as a Corvette right?
 
As long as the fabled G3 isn't needed to experience the bulk of gameplay - I'm fine with it.
G2 isn't even needed (particularly for suits). It's just so much less fun to do combat with G1 weapons; that's an issue (it's less fun unless you upgrade, not necessarily more fun because you do; it just gets faster and there's no real difficulty to speak of). But this thread isn't about that and I'm hesitant to muddy it with that topic, you have to address both individually.

The fact that most players can beat high intensity with minimal deaths in G1 gear is not a spectacular quality of the game.

The only thing I will say is this:

Not including looter shooters (and RPG shooters) which Elite's FPS model definitely is neither... A good FPS game with upgrade paths shouldn't ever require you upgrade. Upgrading should be lots of fun (absolutely the key for this topic) and the end result is that you should have more fun. Usually, this means that the upgrades are iteratively small and that unlocking things offers more utility/options to the player (which is what Engineers should end up doing right?). Direct upgrades should be heavily skewed towards DPS than defense. Boosting defence (as NPCs do as they rank up) results in excessively slow game play. That makes upgrading desirable because slow game play is not as fun as... well, balanced TTK.

If we're saying "you don't need to upgrade but doing so reduces the boring part of higher end combat" then that's just wrong. Making upgrades based on DPS and less on health directly intensifies combat and makes it harder (doing the opposite just makes it longer, which no one can ever really claim is more difficult because you have so much more time to think).

TLDR: Current FPS difficulty is a major issue. It's a separate issue and does need a lot of attention.
 
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