Hi FD, Any plans to check the game breaking Submit and Highwake issue? ( Its basically an exploit )

It may also be possible to introduce a mechanism that when interdicted, if you then surrender that interdiction you get the normal cooldown period allowing you to jump out, however on reaching the following system you have a longer than normal cooldown period, before you can undertake a further jump.

This is exactly what I was about to suggest: allow highwaking, but leave them stuck in SC in whatever system they jumped to for the usual emergency FSD cooldown period (60 seconds). Plenty of time for the pirate to jump after them and continue pursuit (and maybe even chat a little bit!)

Gives pirates a valid option, whilst requiring use of a wake scanner taking up one of those nice utility slots they like to have full of chaff and shield boosters... You know, for all the talking they like doing.
 

Majinvash

Banned
This is exactly what I was about to suggest: allow highwaking, but leave them stuck in SC in whatever system they jumped to for the usual emergency FSD cooldown period (60 seconds). Plenty of time for the pirate to jump after them and continue pursuit (and maybe even chat a little bit!)

Gives pirates a valid option, whilst requiring use of a wake scanner taking up one of those nice utility slots they like to have full of chaff and shield boosters... You know, for all the talking they like doing.

This is all great and would be fine with this.

Except having High Wake effected by mass lock would sort this anyway.

Even if this mechanic was new implemented, P2P and instancing would render it useless and if just seems to be avoiding the issue, if you have to put in ANOTHER mechanic to fix a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place.

Its currently being used as an unstoppable escape for any ship, in any situation, as long as they can last the 20 seconds or so from submit to highwake engaging.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open
 
This is all great and would be fine with this.

Except having High Wake effected by mass lock would sort this anyway.

Even if this mechanic was new implemented, P2P and instancing would render it useless and if just seems to be avoiding the issue, if you have to put in ANOTHER mechanic to fix a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place.

Its currently being used as an unstoppable escape for any ship, in any situation, as long as they can last the 20 seconds or so from submit to highwake engaging.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

Now you are just being whiney again. FIX IT MY WAY OR IT AIN"T FIXED!

Honestly, the whole thread goes in the trash as far as I am concerned. It is becoming more and more clear that the only thing you want is to be able to destroy other players not actually fix thing in a balanced way.

Fortunately, I have some faith that somewhere in FD they point and laugh at your transparent attempt to make FD a gankfest.
 
How about a limpet that operates like a hatch breaker, but disables fsd while active. Then a standard pirating would be drop shields, disable, then talk.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Was turning the "Save and exit button" into an "Eject" button ever attempted as a solution for combat logging?

Glorious thought
 
Now you are just being whiney again. FIX IT MY WAY OR IT AIN"T FIXED!

Honestly, the whole thread goes in the trash as far as I am concerned. It is becoming more and more clear that the only thing you want is to be able to destroy other players not actually fix thing in a balanced way.

Fortunately, I have some faith that somewhere in FD they point and laugh at your transparent attempt to make FD a gankfest.

Yup - I can't help but note that the proposal is very one sided i.e. stop ships escaping when mass locked, but with zero suggestions about how someone might escape from that situation especially when facing a wing. The whole suggestion is nothing more than "make it so I win always in specific circumstances."
 

Majinvash

Banned
Sigh...

If you cant help but note, its probably a case you didn't understand the post.

I was very clear about it would effect and benefit both sides.

Sorry you are so jaded or bad at PVP that you cannot see this.

Some situations, you just are going to loose. As it should be.

Will it lead to some player killing?, yes darn straight. As is human nature.
Would that same player killer be at the mercy of an opposing wing? Yes.. Yes he would..
Sounds pretty balanced.

The only way I would get access to more kills than I already get with a change like this, would be if you goodies didn't organise and try and stop us. But that is getting dangerously close to player created content.

Imagine a group like the fuel rats but made up to counter and chase a criminal threat. If HW wasn't the easy way out, a group like that might actually have a chance and get some traction.

Please go back and read the original post, it might help with your replies.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open
 
I was very clear about it would effect and benefit both sides.
And The Chairmaker's/my suggestion also provides that benefit, it just means a little extra work to chase your prey if you think it's likely to be worth it.

The only way I would get access to more kills than I already get with a change like this, would be if you goodies didn't organise and try and stop us. But that is getting dangerously close to player created content.

Imagine a group like the fuel rats but made up to counter and chase a criminal threat. If HW wasn't the easy way out, a group like that might actually have a chance and get some traction.
You spend a decent amount of time maligning that instancing is problematic and will ruin several ideas proposed by others, and yet this hypothetical group of counter-pirates (which actually already exist, I've talked to several such wings at CGs before now, usually failing to get into the same instance as pirates) will of course be able to find and attack you without problem...?

You talk about the mechanic being "broken," but it's only broken from your perspective, because you don't like it. My suggestion augments it with an emergency cooldown on high-wakes straight from interdictions which addresses your complaints, but that's not enough because... why, again?
 

Majinvash

Banned
And The Chairmaker's/my suggestion also provides that benefit, it just means a little extra work to chase your prey if you think it's likely to be worth it.


You spend a decent amount of time maligning that instancing is problematic and will ruin several ideas proposed by others, and yet this hypothetical group of counter-pirates (which actually already exist, I've talked to several such wings at CGs before now, usually failing to get into the same instance as pirates) will of course be able to find and attack you without problem...?

You talk about the mechanic being "broken," but it's only broken from your perspective, because you don't like it. My suggestion augments it with an emergency cooldown on high-wakes straight from interdictions which addresses your complaints, but that's not enough because... why, again?

Because you are producing a solution to a problem that can be fixed easier.

The problem is victims can only see how it would effect them.
And hunters can only see how it would benefit them.

You can see this from the responses.

The players who play as pirates and bounty hunters know this is an issue.
The people getting pirated can only see their guaranteed escape from all situations being lost and having to change their game play or even worse.. Losing!

Instancing is fine enough IN system, its really terrible when you jump into a new one. Your cool down is a band-aid to the problem.
So if I understand it, I have to chase you to another system, get into your wake or interdict you, take your shields down, disable your drives in the "xx" seconds it takes for the cool down to reset before, guess what.. you can HIGH wake out again. That's not fun or emergent game play. Its just impracticable and a bit of a chore.

Every CG or player run event of late I have gone to, I have gotten into epic wing battles, which 95% of the time result in very few kills because EVERYONE ( including me ) high wakes out the moment they think they are about to lose. That's pretty dull as well.

With the new hull tanking coming with Horizons, this issue is going to become even more apparent.

So while you might think im poo pooing your ideas, its really a case of there is a simple solution to an issue which makes no in game sense. ( It makes perfect out of game sense, so that people rarely lose )

But as we are never going to agree, let me ask you a question.

What is mass lock, in the game for?

Majinvash
The Voice of Open
 
Because you are producing a solution to a problem that can be fixed easier.

The problem is victims can only see how it would effect them.
And hunters can only see how it would benefit them.

You can see this from the responses.

The players who play as pirates and bounty hunters know this is an issue.
The people getting pirated can only see their guaranteed escape from all situations being lost and having to change their game play or even worse.. Losing!


Every CG or player run event of late I have gone to, I have gotten into epic wing battles, which 95% of the time result in very few kills because EVERYONE ( including me ) high wakes out the moment they think they are about to lose. That's pretty dull as well.

I don't really care either way, I am not on one side or the other, except that I do not find your logic particularly compelling, especially since you admit using it to your advantage.

Not much dedication there mate, why are you highwaking out if you want everyone to stop?

You want the mechanics to force you to the right thing?
 

Majinvash

Banned
I don't really care either way, I am not on one side or the other, except that I do not find your logic particularly compelling, especially since you admit using it to your advantage.

Not much dedication there mate, why are you highwaking out if you want everyone to stop?

You want the mechanics to force you to the right thing?

^^ Level playing field .. As I said it effects both sides ..

But I asked you a simple question.

"So what is Mass lock, in the game for?"

Majinvash
The Voice of Open
 
High Wake is the only escape option for small slow ships. Remove it, and everyone will fly the same 5 ships in Open. ...Boring.

Besides, they already nerfed SCBs and incentivized weaker shields with biweave. If you can't strip shields and shoot out a person's drives before they can wake, don't blame Frontier. They are doing everything they can to make the predator/prey mechanic balanced.

This means the predator/predator balance may suffer a little, but if you want PVP with consequences, don't play 1v1.
 
^^ Level playing field .. As I said it effects both sides ..

But I asked you a simple question.

"So what is Mass lock, in the game for?"

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

SO you can kill Commanders that don't high wake out.

Once you get +50% ammo you will be happy. Relax, hit the Onionhead son, you are too wound up over a game.

If you had your way, you would just drive more people to Solo, and eventually the universe would be empty in Open, and you would be upset about that.
Your suggestion would be the slow death of Open, and give you the exact opposite of what you want.

Perhaps you should really look at that and see if this is the game for you. FD will always give an out, and you want a game without an out.
 
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High Wake is the only escape option for small slow ships. Remove it, and everyone will fly the same 5 ships in Open. ...Boring.


Yeah I have to agree. Their are certain ships whose only option when attacked is high waking, if you take that away then those ships become death traps in open play. And pirates have the wake scanner mechanic to pursue so it's not like it isn't an answerable tactic.


Heck, a lot of players don't even KNOW about the high wake tactic, I know I didn't until like half a year after launch, and honestly I'm not sure I've ever even used it.
 
Yeah I have to agree. Their are certain ships whose only option when attacked is high waking, if you take that away then those ships become death traps in open play. And pirates have the wake scanner mechanic to pursue so it's not like it isn't an answerable tactic.


Heck, a lot of players don't even KNOW about the high wake tactic, I know I didn't until like half a year after launch, and honestly I'm not sure I've ever even used it.

And such a death trap would reduce the number of players in Open, either through quitting, or going to Solo/Group play.

Either way, the problem he wants solved gets worse. It is a negative feedback loop.
 
Mass locking has its purpose, but I feel mass locking high wakes would have the effect of guaranteeing pirates only operate a small number of vessel types. Namely fast high mass vessels.

It is bad enough at present with the Clipper obsession, due to its speed, mass lock ability and legacy shield cell spamming ability.

The more types of ships and loadouts pirates are able to successfully use, the greater the variety in the gameplay and therefore more fun that can be had by all.
 
But I asked you a simple question.

"So what is Mass lock, in the game for?"

Majinvash
The Voice of Open
There is merit to the idea that the interdictee (heh) has to chose between running from the system but escape mass-lock and wanting to stay in-system and be subject to mass-lock. Most traders will be interdicted on the way to their final destination where they want to sell their goods. They don't want to jump out of system.

So both High as Low Wake have their drawbacks.

As often in games, your question can only be answered by looking at the game mechanics in place. There is no 'scientific' explanation for the difference. Going from those game mechanics, engaging into supercruise to navigate the astronomical objects in system, the calculations are being made more complex by the presence of a massive body, called "the Oprah effect" by scientists n 3300. Since High Waking needs to calculate the coordinates in a different system where this massive body isn't present, this will not complicate the calculations.

As I said, after the fact reasoning, far from conclusive.
 
But I asked you a simple question.

"So what is Mass lock, in the game for?"

I've only been playing a week and yet I seem to have more of an answer for that than most of the posters in this thread: to enforce the requirement of either your speed > their speed or your tank > their dps to disengage, because if there are no restrictions on disengaging nobody will die for any reasons other than greed, ignorance or a truly overwhelming force, and that's boring. Yes, mass lock affecting HW will of course make a lot of ships riskier to fly solo and a fast mass locker in every pirate wing is a requirement, but that's the intended game design and the latter part won't change without a way to slow down ships other than taking out modules.

Combat logging and "driving people to solo" are separate issues, important but not relevant.
 
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Majinvash

Banned
I've only been playing a week and yet I seem to have more of an answer for that than most of the posters in this thread: to enforce the requirement of either your speed > their speed or your tank > their dps to disengage, because if there are no restrictions on disengaging nobody will die for any reasons other than greed, ignorance or a truly overwhelming force, and that's boring. Yes, mass lock affecting HW will of course make a lot of ships riskier to fly solo and a fast mass locker in every pirate wing is a requirement, but that's the intended game design and the latter part won't change without a way to slow down ships other than taking out modules.

Combat logging and "driving people to solo" are separate issues, important but not relevant.

Very good.

The others in this thread know exactly what mass locking is for. But to properly explain it, would show why High Waking ignoring ALL of it is a game breaking feature. Originally as I understand it because early players complained how it was annoying to be mass-locked longer than they wanted when flying out of a station and wanting to jump to a different system.

Ziggy pointed out that its an option to either try and get back to super cruise so you can dock at a station or High wake to another system. He's not wrong but it still ignores the basics of masslock.

Mass lock is a way to keep a ship in an instance long enough to interact with it.
Without mass lock, everyone would simply submit to an interdiction and then jump straight back into super-cruise.

Forcing you to get 4k away from a larger ship, as their mass disrupted your FSD is a great feature and allows for a lot of options and demands a level of skill. It also in certain situations would be inescapable.
It was also designed in such a way that a larger ship cannot be held by a smaller ship.
Many players have even called for a change in this, so that a number of smaller ships could mass lock a single larger ship. Making wolf packs a thing. Another feature mentioned early on in development but never actioned.

Whether HW out of combat was ever designed as a feature or just a side effect mechanic due to the players wanting to be able to high wake quicker away from a station ( I assume to speed up trade grinding ).
It has become a crutch for easy escape, so much so and so overly used that my question about removing it caused such fear and dread.

I use it all the time to escape Wing fights, that wing fights don't even fill me with excitement any-more. I have started stopping to a degree, but when others I am fighting still use it. Well...that just unfair.

I am asking to increase difficulty and add more tactical flying into the game, this scares a lot of folk who just want an easy risk free life in ED. Even when they have the option of Solo or Private available to them, they want it to be just as mundane in the Open.

They are overly entitled. Now I am sure someone will say the same as me.
But I am just asking for an in game feature to make sense, which currently it doesn't.

Will it push people to solo or private? Maybe but these same people who will complain about that, will also be in another thread fighting to the death about how mode switching is a key feature and shouldn't ever be changed.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open
 
Mass lock is a way to keep a ship in an instance long enough to interact with it.
Without mass lock, everyone would simply submit to an interdiction and then jump straight back into super-cruise.
Reading your posts, maybe it would be an idea to turn your attention to the submit feature.

If submitting came with more drawbacks than it does now, players would fight interdiction more often (adding gameplay) which means the more skilful pilot would escape/successfully interdict. Upon a successful interdiction the FSD is cooked, which has an effect on both high and low wakes.

Just popped in my head, so don't ask for details. I aint got them :)
 

Majinvash

Banned
Reading your posts, maybe it would be an idea to turn your attention to the submit feature.

If submitting came with more drawbacks than it does now, players would fight interdiction more often (adding gameplay) which means the more skilful pilot would escape/successfully interdict. Upon a successful interdiction the FSD is cooked, which has an effect on both high and low wakes.

Just popped in my head, so don't ask for details. I aint got them :)

One battle at a time buddy.

Imagine if I asked about two changes....

I would be happy for a single response by someone from FD to why HW isn't effect by masslock, when it definitely is by a space station.
Are there two types of mass in space? Na, its just not thinking through a mechanic or how it can be abused.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open
 
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