Hit a brick wall in training

Haven't done this one since they revamped the challenge scenarios and forgot how short the new ones were; I was saving my MCs for the harder waves, only to discover there weren't any. Oh well, small MCs, at least without those flashy effects, are crap anyway.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1WxGbDDjxM
I did this one when I was on a long-for-me-but-not-for-real-explorers exploration trip; I was really in the mood for some fightin' and was kicking myself for going on the trip, so I did the first scenario and this one to get it out of my system. It reminded me that I never flew the Viper when I was coming up in the game and also reminded me of what flying a non-engineered ship is like again (it was good to see how the other side lives after being engineered for so long).

When I got back home, I G5'd my first Viper and it's become one of my favourite ships and my go-to "mess around at a CG" ship. You called it re: the thrusters, I love 'em on that ship.
 
If any of you have managed to get through even one ship on this particular scenario I would love to hear some tips if you would be so obliged! And also, am I alone in thinking that the level difference between Incursion: Mostly Harmless and Incursion: Competent is HUGE? Finally, have any of you tried mouse/keyboard versus HOTAS, does it make a difference in terms of turn rate?
There is no difference in rotational rates between control types, provided whatever inputs you are using can reach their full range.

Anyway, my recommendation is to pay close attention to your thrusters/throttle, your distance to target, and your closing velocity. You want to get out of their cone of fire and then you want to stay close. When they move, you should follow (always keeping in mind their cone of fire) and prevent them from opening up too much of a gap. When you are close, stay in the blue zone (and don't think only the main throttle can do this, transverse thrust applied in addition to, or opposite of, your actual direction of motion will still accelerate the ship, and it's actual velocity, not throttle setting that matters) so you can rotate fast enough to keep weapons on target. When boosting to close distance, try not to overshoot, expend some of the boost transversely, if you need to, and loop back in on them.

Remember the first gen or two of first person shooters where you could run faster diagonally because it just added the x and y vectors? That's how thrusters work in ED. The transverse/reverse speed caps are 80%/60% with FA on, but only if you only apply them one at a time. If you use both lateral and vertical thrust simultaneously, it's 100%, even with FA on, while vertical/lateral + reverse is something like 88%. So, if you fly diagonally, and use roll plus yaw, as needed, to manipulate your actual movement vector relative to your opponent, it's much easier to keep up than if you are only using a single thrust vector.

Personally, I find the competent challenge to be the easiest, but that's probably because I spent more than a thousand hours in the Viper III during the early game and I'm still decent enough with it.

impressive flying there, both tailing them enemies and ToT with those fixed beams
I've always liked both the Viper III and fixed beams, so this scenario is right up my alley.

Yeah they should put the "escape with your t-9 full of cargo" scenario too. XD
I'd like to see some scenarios that have been pulled (namely the stealth one) reintroduced, and some more 'real-world' game scenarios, such as your escape scenario, added.
 
Last edited:
Remember the first gen or two of first person shooters where you could run faster diagonally because it just added the x and y vectors? That's how thrusters work in ED. The transverse/reverse speed caps are 80%/60% with FA on, but only if you only apply them one at a time. If you use both lateral and vertical thrust simultaneously, it's 100%, even with FA on, while vertical/lateral + reverse is something like 88%. So, if you fly diagonally, and use roll plus yaw, as needed, to manipulate your actual movement vector relative to your opponent, it's much easier to keep up than if you are only using a single thrust vector.
I didn't know this, but it makes sense! And it's my natural way of flying in combat, I'm glad I'm doing something right for once. I've been playing for 2000 hours, so I'm dumb to not know that about the game, but it's nice to still learn new stuff all the time in a game after this many hours.
 
Damn. That video is impressive. So clean.

Morbid, can I ask about your cockpit set-up? I think I'm at a point where I need something other than a stock controller. If I can get some of those lovely lateral drifts, as you demonstrate, I'd owe you a few pints. :)
 
Morbid, can I ask about your cockpit set-up?
I normally use a full CH setup (Fighterstick USB, Pro Throttle, Pro Pedals) and having that analog mini-stick for vertical/lateral thrusters certainly helps. I also have a Thrustmaster T.16000M FSC, which is roughly comparable in performance (also has an analog mini stick, that I use for the same purpose, though I find it's placement less than ideal), but requires more modifiers to account for it's relative lack of buttons.

Other than that I'm sitting at a fairly normal desk, with my controls attached to it so they don't slide, in the cheapest Chinese-made gaming chair that I could find and bend into vague symmetry, with the wheels replaced with stationary floor casters.
 
I normally use a full CH setup (Fighterstick USB, Pro Throttle, Pro Pedals) and having that analog mini-stick for vertical/lateral thrusters certainly helps. I also have a Thrustmaster T.16000M FSC, which is roughly comparable in performance (also has an analog mini stick, that I use for the same purpose, though I find it's placement less than ideal), but requires more modifiers to account for it's relative lack of buttons.

Other than that I'm sitting at a fairly normal desk, with my controls attached to it so they don't slide, in the cheapest Chinese-made gaming chair that I could find and bend into vague symmetry, with the wheels replaced with stationary floor casters.
Do you lean aside in the chair while playing a dogfight?
I ask that because I can't stop doing it. XD
 
There is no difference in rotational rates between control types, provided whatever inputs you are using can reach their full range.

Anyway, my recommendation is to pay close attention to your thrusters/throttle, your distance to target, and your closing velocity. You want to get out of their cone of fire and then you want to stay close. When they move, you should follow (always keeping in mind their cone of fire) and prevent them from opening up too much of a gap. When you are close, stay in the blue zone (and don't think only the main throttle can do this, transverse thrust applied in addition to, or opposite of, your actual direction of motion will still accelerate the ship, and it's actual velocity, not throttle setting that matters) so you can rotate fast enough to keep weapons on target. When boosting to close distance, try not to overshoot, expend some of the boost transversely, if you need to, and loop back in on them.

Remember the first gen or two of first person shooters where you could run faster diagonally because it just added the x and y vectors? That's how thrusters work in ED. The transverse/reverse speed caps are 80%/60% with FA on, but only if you only apply them one at a time. If you use both lateral and vertical thrust simultaneously, it's 100%, even with FA on, while vertical/lateral + reverse is something like 88%. So, if you fly diagonally, and use roll plus yaw, as needed, to manipulate your actual movement vector relative to your opponent, it's much easier to keep up than if you are only using a single thrust vector.
Dear Morbad, thank you very much for the advice and the video! It's nice to have one with FA on as a comparison. And thank you everybody else for contributions, it actually helped! I was able to get all the way to the 4th contender, in fact, the 2nd and 3rd barely put up a fight! The 4th however brought my shields down immediately with the missiles and since I already had 62% hull it took me out easily.:(

I learned two valuable lessons here, 1 is that once you manage to take their shields down or at least get them very low the NPCs will make a run for it, and once I'm on their 6 I rarely if ever lose them. But number 2 is still puzzling me... I would have thought that I have a fairly decent ability to conceptualise movement in three dimensions i.e. I have an internal feel to where and how the ship is moving according to the manoeuvrer I'm performing, but my 2nd realisation whilst trying to replicate Mobad's manoeuvrers was that at least in this scenario the ship seems to turn much faster if I thrust up whilst pitching up, than if I thrust down whilst pitching up. Hmmmm... I don't understand this :unsure:... After several simulations with a packet of cigs I tried drawing it to understand what's happening here:
134919

So when pitching up and strafing down, technically the ship should have less trajectory time and consequently a "faster" turn. Whereas strafing up gives the ship a much larger curve since it is being pushed up as it's turning up... Well at least until it reaches the 90 degree turn at which is point it's being pushed down. So I tested the scenario with both techniques and it was with the strafe up whilst pitching up that I managed to get them into my view... I'm quite puzzled and don't really understand it....

Any thoughts?

PS: I also tried disabling unnecessary modules, but I found no improvement in performance, maybe they don't really work in scenarios? (or maybe shields last longer).
 
Dear Morbad, thank you very much for the advice and the video! It's nice to have one with FA on as a comparison. And thank you everybody else for contributions, it actually helped! I was able to get all the way to the 4th contender, in fact, the 2nd and 3rd barely put up a fight! The 4th however brought my shields down immediately with the missiles and since I already had 62% hull it took me out easily.:(

I learned two valuable lessons here, 1 is that once you manage to take their shields down or at least get them very low the NPCs will make a run for it, and once I'm on their 6 I rarely if ever lose them. But number 2 is still puzzling me... I would have thought that I have a fairly decent ability to conceptualise movement in three dimensions i.e. I have an internal feel to where and how the ship is moving according to the manoeuvrer I'm performing, but my 2nd realisation whilst trying to replicate Mobad's manoeuvrers was that at least in this scenario the ship seems to turn much faster if I thrust up whilst pitching up, than if I thrust down whilst pitching up. Hmmmm... I don't understand this :unsure:... After several simulations with a packet of cigs I tried drawing it to understand what's happening here:
View attachment 134919
So when pitching up and strafing down, technically the ship should have less trajectory time and consequently a "faster" turn. Whereas strafing up gives the ship a much larger curve since it is being pushed up as it's turning up... Well at least until it reaches the 90 degree turn at which is point it's being pushed down. So I tested the scenario with both techniques and it was with the strafe up whilst pitching up that I managed to get them into my view... I'm quite puzzled and don't really understand it....

Any thoughts?

PS: I also tried disabling unnecessary modules, but I found no improvement in performance, maybe they don't really work in scenarios? (or maybe shields last longer).
It's precisely the opposite. If you strafe down while pitching, the ship will add the down vector to your directional speed, resulting in your ship getting under and away from the target. You will do a larger turn and end further away from the target.
But if you strafe up while pitching, your ship will do a tighter turn and end closer to the target.
Each method has its purpose. If you are trying to pursue an enemy and stay at his tail, as long as you have enough speed for it, you should use the strafe up.
But if the ship is boosting and turning to face you, you will risk ending the turn at his face, and getting rammed.
Strafing down while turning can make you avoid the ramming and still point at him for a fire solution.
But if you want to stay at his tail, you must be watchful of when he boosts, and what type of boost he uses (boost to flee, boost to turn around and joust, boost to strafe around you)
Big ships will most of the time use boost to turn around and face you for firepower. Avoid that by keeping close to them and boosting under them.
Fast ships like eagles will try a lot to boost and strafe around you. Match your boost with strafe up and pitch to pursue.
 
It's precisely the opposite. If you strafe down while pitching, the ship will add the down vector to your directional speed, resulting in your ship getting under and away from the target. You will do a larger turn and end further away from the target.
But if you strafe up while pitching, your ship will do a tighter turn and end closer to the target.
Each method has its purpose. If you are trying to pursue an enemy and stay at his tail, as long as you have enough speed for it, you should use the strafe up.
But if the ship is boosting and turning to face you, you will risk ending the turn at his face, and getting rammed.
Strafing down while turning can make you avoid the ramming and still point at him for a fire solution.
But if you want to stay at his tail, you must be watchful of when he boosts, and what type of boost he uses (boost to flee, boost to turn around and joust, boost to strafe around you)
Big ships will most of the time use boost to turn around and face you for firepower. Avoid that by keeping close to them and boosting under them.
Fast ships like eagles will try a lot to boost and strafe around you. Match your boost with strafe up and pitch to pursue.
Interesting, I'll need a 3d spacial sim to visualise it, in my head it still seems that it should be the other way around. I seem to be able to consistently get to the 4th baddie now, but my stupid ship ship still doesn't turn as fast as in the videos I see...
 
Any thoughts?
Pitch rate is independent of movement vector for any given velocity and ENG pip setting. However, your turn radius is smaller if you are moving in the direction you are trying to point at.

If you are noticing that you are actually turning slower, it's due to poor net velocity control.

I also tried disabling unnecessary modules, but I found no improvement in performance, maybe they don't really work in scenarios? (or maybe shields last longer).
Disabling the unnecessary modules simply lowers standing heat load slightly, it doesn't really mean much...I was expecting many more waves and wasn't sure how hot the ship they gave me would be. I stopped myself from fully sorting out module priorities when I realized it would all likely be meaningless given the scenario.
 
I have a type 9 that I never use because it's so easy to get interdicted in it... I somehow feel that if I could get the skill right to beat the Competent scenario, I would be less panicky when confronted by a 'Competent in game'.
Have you tried your T9 in solo mode? For me at least, NPC interdictions are a joke. I made a new character about 3 months ago and ran her all the way up to trade elite via cargo transport and missions. In that whole time, she's never been successfully interdicted by an NPC character, despite what feels like thousands of attempts. She's flown a T6, T7, Python, Anaconda, T9, and a Cutter. NPC interdictions are just an annoyance that means she has to line back up with her destination after evading them.

Of course, against players it's a whole different situation.
 
Pitch rate is independent of movement vector for any given velocity and ENG pip setting. However, your turn radius is smaller if you are moving in the direction you are trying to point at.
Ah! That's actually quite interesting, I always thought it had everything to do with pip setting since it's using thrusters to pitch/roll/yaw...(?). I must thank you for the advice since now I am more consistently reaching the 4th baddie, perhaps it will take a few more months to overcome this scenario. Great game you gotta say it!

Have you tried your T9 in solo mode? For me at least, NPC interdictions are a joke. I made a new character about 3 months ago and ran her all the way up to trade elite via cargo transport and missions. In that whole time, she's never been successfully interdicted by an NPC character, despite what feels like thousands of attempts. She's flown a T6, T7, Python, Anaconda, T9, and a Cutter. NPC interdictions are just an annoyance that means she has to line back up with her destination after evading them.

Of course, against players it's a whole different situation.
Yes, I almost exclusively play solo (unless I run out of fuel :p). I was really surprised myself since I have never, ever been interdicted not even on the original sidewinder! But the T9 got interdicted twice during the same mission and the cost was so expensive I decided not to use it any more until I can afford to fully engineer it and arm it to the teeth. I don't have much time to play (once or twice a week) so this ain't likely to happen anytime soon...:(
 
Ah! That's actually quite interesting, I always thought it had everything to do with pip setting since it's using thrusters to pitch/roll/yaw...(?). I must thank you for the advice since now I am more consistently reaching the 4th baddie, perhaps it will take a few more months to overcome this scenario. Great game you gotta say it!



Yes, I almost exclusively play solo (unless I run out of fuel :p). I was really surprised myself since I have never, ever been interdicted not even on the original sidewinder! But the T9 got interdicted twice during the same mission and the cost was so expensive I decided not to use it any more until I can afford to fully engineer it and arm it to the teeth. I don't have much time to play (once or twice a week) so this ain't likely to happen anytime soon...:(
Maybe I've just got used to what it takes to evade. I can remember being successfully interdicted when I first started playing years ago, but now a lot of times, I just slow down so they can catch up and just get it over with.

Pirate: "There's no escape!"
Me: "Riiight." :sleep:
 
I would like someone to confirm this, but I seem to notice that I can evade interdictions more easily by setting my ship's speed in the blue zone. The ship seems more agile then, while trying to stay in the circle.
 
Top Bottom