Hit a brick wall in training

[Bollen]

Hello community! First time poster long time player here. I've played Elite for years and have almost Elite rating in everything except combat, which I generally avoid since I lost a very expensive ship many years ago. Since the last update (the one where they included the training scenarios), I've been diligently practicing every level, up till competent where I just can't get behind or defeat the 1st ship.

A quick note about me: coming from flight simulators I consider myself a highly competent pilot, I can think quickly on all 6 axes. I play with a HOTAS and I'm relatively good at changing power settings as the need arises. I can use flight assist off fairly well and if the ship actually performs better, but for the most part I just use it to turn or for smooth landings.

The problem: Every time I sit down to play I will spend a couple of hours on the combat scenarios first before jumping into the actual game. I can finish all the scenarios with 100% shields and zero damage very easily and I can mostly stay on 6 on all enemy ships, the Type 9 being the hardest one. But when I reach the Incursion: Competent scenario, I cannot for the life of me get behind the baddie! I've tried:

1. All power to Engines as soon as it passes me
2. Boosting to get into position
3. Flight assist Off to try to turn faster
4. several combinations of the above
5. pitching and strafing
6. Yaw and strafe
7. roll, pitch and strafe
8. Pitch with with FA Off
9. Pitch with FA Off and strafe
10. Jousting with all power to shields and the rest to weapons, then swapping to engines when it passes

In all cases I end up dead with the baddie still having most of it's shields and facing me. I even watched a Youtube video of somebody doing it and replicated every movement: Engine at 108, as soon as it passes all power to engines, then once in target swap to Balance and give it hell! But I cannot get my ship to turn like his/her. By the time I have it in view it's facing me and shooting it's whole arsenal at me (missiles, lasers, etc.). The only thing I haven't tried is playing with a mouse and keyboard because I am terrible at trying to fly like that, but it really seems like my ship cannot turn fast enough or at least not like in that video.

If any of you have managed to get through even one ship on this particular scenario I would love to hear some tips if you would be so obliged! And also, am I alone in thinking that the level difference between Incursion: Mostly Harmless and Incursion: Competent is HUGE? Finally, have any of you tried mouse/keyboard versus HOTAS, does it make a difference in terms of turn rate?

I truly appreciate any thoughts!

 

[tafkabb]

Welcome to the galaxy, Commander!
The Incursions are training missions, not tutorials as such. So don't feel you have to complete them, they're there for you to practise and hone your skills. One day you'll beat them, but don't worry too much if for now you find them very difficult, because they are very difficult.

 

[Lightspeed]

Welcome to the forum, Cmdr Bollen. Sounds like you will find the actual game easier than the training mission.

Test yourself (and your ship) out in a few in-game situations. I'm willing to bet you will rank up pretty quickly, so long as you equip your ship accordingly ... you will have to engineer it to get the best out of it, of course.

You may find what is being said in this thread encouraging, and to give you ideas about where to re-start combat.

 

[elliesims]

I would post your ship stats that you use in general play as well as you may have done something easy to remedy that would improve your combat endurance / effectiveness.

 

[Bollen]

Welcome to the galaxy, Commander!
The Incursions are training missions, not tutorials as such. So don't feel you have to complete them, they're there for you to practise and hone your skills. One day you'll beat them, but don't worry too much if for now you find them very difficult, because they are very difficult.

Hi Bongo! Thank you for your response. Yes I'm aware they are not tutorials, but I'm taking them as a personal challenge! I'm glad to hear that they are actually "very difficult! I would like however, to be able to beat them, since I've been stuck on that particular one for months now. I know it's stupid, but basically I'm afraid of taking any missions that require a level of Competent in the game until I can get past this training. I still think there's an issue with turning...

Welcome to the forum, Cmdr Bollen. Sounds like you will find the actual game easier than the training mission.

Test yourself (and your ship) out in a few in-game situations. I'm willing to bet you will rank up pretty quickly, so long as you equip your ship accordingly ... you will have to engineer it to get the best out of it, of course.

You may find what is being said in this thread encouraging, and to give you ideas about where to re-start combat.

Hello lightspeed and thank you! Yes, in game is much easier because I have a pretty engineered Asp Explorer. Nevertheless, it's this particular scenario I want to beat to build on my confidence in game! It's not particularly ranking that I'm concerned with, but rather getting over my fear of getting 'mugged'! I have a type 9 that I never use because it's so easy to get interdicted in it... I somehow feel that if I could get the skill right to beat the Competent scenario, I would be less panicky when confronted by a 'Competent in game'.

I would post your ship stats that you use in general play as well as you may have done something easy to remedy that would improve your combat endurance / effectiveness.

Hi Ellie! Yes, like I said above, my in game ship is pretty reasonable. maximum engineering on Engine and Shields. I still haven't received an invitation from the engineers that do weapons, but I'll probably put that on next to-do list.

 

[Bollen]

I feel like you might be having trouble translating the FA Off turn. It is mostly likely because of ship stats. Just a guess.

Interesting... Could you elaborate? I do use the FA Off for a very limited period since I find I can lose control pretty easily with a joystick... Buttons are different story. In the case of the scenario you're pretty much stuck with whatever ship they decide to give you...

 

[Northpin]

I somehow feel that if I could get the skill right to beat the Competent scenario, I would be less panicky when confronted by a 'Competent in game'.

Somehow i dont think the Competent scenario is related with the Competent NPC level in game.
With a good enough engineered ship, there are hardly any NPC that can pose a threat

 

[Bloodsign]

I haven't done all the training scenarios, but I suspect that your scenario is tougher than the game itself, OP.

Keep in mind that (if you are smart) your fights in ED will be largely asymmetrical; in other words you will have stacked all controllable factors in your favor and you will be at an advantage in most engagements.

I say this as a pilot who has been taking down Elite NPCs since I was ranked Competent.

 

[MickyG1982]

First rule about training...

It isn't mandatory.

Learn the basics, landing, taking off, jumping, treat the rest as on the job training, i.e. learn it as you go along.

 

[Bollen]

Keep the FA off during the entire turn. Turn it off slightly before you begin. Nose up central pivot. Then when you have your nose back on target, turn the FA on and boost.

You know, you sound like the type of cat who should just fly FA Off.

Why thank you sir, you flatter me! That which you describe is pretty much my go to maneuver, if I can afford to have most pips on engine I will also do a double boost i.e. 1st boost a little bit after I initiate the turn and a 2nd boost when the target is on sight. It will depend on things like whether I'm being attacked or if my ship is slow and sluggish.

I think the best scenario to describe my goal is the one called Wolfpack Tactics, since in that scenario you're confronted by an NPC on a Cobra MkIII and you're fying the same ship. However, the NPC does some crazy maneuvers and it's almost impossible to keep up with. In some cases, despite having say two pips on engine, throttle in the middle of the blue zone FA Off I start to make a turn and the ship just halts... I doubt this is a bug and I still can't quite get what to do to get out of it..? Sometimes pulling the throttle quickly down and then up seem to jerk the ship out of this state, but sometimes the only thing that makes it react is to give it another pip to the engine... It's weird! And if your engine already has three pips, then there's no way of getting out of it...

Somehow i dont think the Competent scenario is related with the Competent NPC level in game.
With a good enough engineered ship, there are hardly any NPC that can pose a threat

I partly agree with your statement! Yes, all the Mostly Harmless ships I've engaged in game barely fight back and they are considerably easier than the scenario ones. However, I did attempt to engage a Competent NPC (which was falsely advertised as a Harmless ranked mission) and nearly wiped the floor with me! I managed to get away, thanks to my lovely fast Asp, with about 20% hull integrity, no shields and several modules malfunctioning. The NPC on the other hand still had shields.... Love your signature by the way, I couldn't agree more!

I haven't done all the training scenarios, but I suspect that your scenario is tougher than the game itself, OP.

Keep in mind that (if you are smart) your fights in ED will be largely asymmetrical; in other words you will have stacked all controllable factors in your favor and you will be at an advantage in most engagements.

I say this as a pilot who has been taking down Elite NPCs since I was ranked Competent.

That's quite impressive, I am just too afraid ! jokes aside though, I am just truly loving the challenge of these scenarios. I like the main game just fine, but I don't feel as interested in the tasks there (engineering, missions, etc.) and I can go months without playing the game. But when they added these scenarios it all changed for me! Now I look forward to the weekend when I can take on these challenges and try to overcome them! However, not being able to move past this particular scenarios is becoming frustrating...

First rule about training...

It isn't mandatory.

Learn the basics, landing, taking off, jumping, treat the rest as on the job training, i.e. learn it as you go along.

Thank you for your comment Micky, but I think you misunderstood my post. I have mastered everything else, this is why now I want to master the one thing I have neglected all along and the Scenarios offer me the opportunity to practice them as a specific goal, because it's always the same situation with the same ship, configuration and baddie. But like I said above, as much as I like a challenge, I also want to be able to actually (eventually) overcome it...

 

[Voracity_T]

Engineer a ship, do PvP.

Then the training missions are an absolute cakewalk.

 

[Autoculto]

Combat tutorials ? I've got about 16 weeks in game time under my belt and only ever managed to beat the first two lol.

 

[Morbad]

Haven't done this one since they revamped the challenge scenarios and forgot how short the new ones were; I was saving my MCs for the harder waves, only to discover there weren't any. Oh well, small MCs, at least without those flashy effects, are crap anyway.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1WxGbDDjxM


Anyway, thrusters are the key to flying the Viper III. The ship doesn't turn too well without Engineering, but it's vertical and lateral thrust has always been orgasmic...you have to use it.

They really need to let the modules and fire groups be configured before starting the scenario. It's not too bad in the first three as you are faster and/or more agile than the initial waves, but holy crap, is trying to get that disgusting python loadout (never, ever, build a Python like that in the actual game) working correctly, without getting shot to pieces, a royal pain in the keister. I suppose it does train you in pip management and how to manipulate modules in combat though, so mission accomplished, I guess.

 

[Northpin]

impressive flying there, both tailing them enemies and ToT with those fixed beams

 

[DMC831]

I always forget about the Challenge Scenarios! I've only done the first 2 I think; I've been wanting them to add missions like this to the actual game, where you're hired to fly someone else's ship to finish a job (my normal example has been "take an unshielded T6 full of cargo and get it past a blockade", or "here, fly my Eagle and help escort me to the XYZ system, the Feds are after me", I'm sure everyone can think of a thousand similar fun mission types like this).

Just contrive a reason why we can't do it in our own ships, and then we gotta make do with the possibly awkward loadout and often non-engineered ship.

EDIT: The easier version of the missions could be the opposite approach, where you borrow an engineered FDL (or whatever) and tasked with patrolling a RES, and that could be fun for those who don't have that ship or the engineering yet and give them a taste of something to aim for.

 

[DMC831]

Haven't done this one since they revamped the challenge scenarios and forgot how short the new ones were; I was saving my MCs for the harder waves, only to discover there weren't any. Oh well, small MCs, at least without those flashy effects, are crap anyway.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1WxGbDDjxM

I did this one when I was on a long-for-me-but-not-for-real-explorers exploration trip; I was really in the mood for some fightin' and was kicking myself for going on the trip, so I did the first scenario and this one to get it out of my system. It reminded me that I never flew the Viper when I was coming up in the game and also reminded me of what flying a non-engineered ship is like again (it was good to see how the other side lives after being engineered for so long).

When I got back home, I G5'd my first Viper and it's become one of my favourite ships and my go-to "mess around at a CG" ship. You called it re: the thrusters, I love 'em on that ship.

 

[Troopi]

Yeah they should put the "escape with your t-9 full of cargo" scenario too. XD

 

[Morbad]

If any of you have managed to get through even one ship on this particular scenario I would love to hear some tips if you would be so obliged! And also, am I alone in thinking that the level difference between Incursion: Mostly Harmless and Incursion: Competent is HUGE? Finally, have any of you tried mouse/keyboard versus HOTAS, does it make a difference in terms of turn rate?

There is no difference in rotational rates between control types, provided whatever inputs you are using can reach their full range.

Anyway, my recommendation is to pay close attention to your thrusters/throttle, your distance to target, and your closing velocity. You want to get out of their cone of fire and then you want to stay close. When they move, you should follow (always keeping in mind their cone of fire) and prevent them from opening up too much of a gap. When you are close, stay in the blue zone (and don't think only the main throttle can do this, transverse thrust applied in addition to, or opposite of, your actual direction of motion will still accelerate the ship, and it's actual velocity, not throttle setting that matters) so you can rotate fast enough to keep weapons on target. When boosting to close distance, try not to overshoot, expend some of the boost transversely, if you need to, and loop back in on them.

Remember the first gen or two of first person shooters where you could run faster diagonally because it just added the x and y vectors? That's how thrusters work in ED. The transverse/reverse speed caps are 80%/60% with FA on, but only if you only apply them one at a time. If you use both lateral and vertical thrust simultaneously, it's 100%, even with FA on, while vertical/lateral + reverse is something like 88%. So, if you fly diagonally, and use roll plus yaw, as needed, to manipulate your actual movement vector relative to your opponent, it's much easier to keep up than if you are only using a single thrust vector.

Personally, I find the competent challenge to be the easiest, but that's probably because I spent more than a thousand hours in the Viper III during the early game and I'm still decent enough with it.

impressive flying there, both tailing them enemies and ToT with those fixed beams

I've always liked both the Viper III and fixed beams, so this scenario is right up my alley.

Yeah they should put the "escape with your t-9 full of cargo" scenario too. XD

I'd like to see some scenarios that have been pulled (namely the stealth one) reintroduced, and some more 'real-world' game scenarios, such as your escape scenario, added.

 

[DMC831]

Remember the first gen or two of first person shooters where you could run faster diagonally because it just added the x and y vectors? That's how thrusters work in ED. The transverse/reverse speed caps are 80%/60% with FA on, but only if you only apply them one at a time. If you use both lateral and vertical thrust simultaneously, it's 100%, even with FA on, while vertical/lateral + reverse is something like 88%. So, if you fly diagonally, and use roll plus yaw, as needed, to manipulate your actual movement vector relative to your opponent, it's much easier to keep up than if you are only using a single thrust vector.

I didn't know this, but it makes sense! And it's my natural way of flying in combat, I'm glad I'm doing something right for once. I've been playing for 2000 hours, so I'm dumb to not know that about the game, but it's nice to still learn new stuff all the time in a game after this many hours.

 

[Morbad]

Morbid, can I ask about your cockpit set-up?

I normally use a full CH setup (Fighterstick USB, Pro Throttle, Pro Pedals) and having that analog mini-stick for vertical/lateral thrusters certainly helps. I also have a Thrustmaster T.16000M FSC, which is roughly comparable in performance (also has an analog mini stick, that I use for the same purpose, though I find it's placement less than ideal), but requires more modifiers to account for it's relative lack of buttons.

Other than that I'm sitting at a fairly normal desk, with my controls attached to it so they don't slide, in the cheapest Chinese-made gaming chair that I could find and bend into vague symmetry, with the wheels replaced with stationary floor casters.