How could player-owned outposts / bases work?

[Mr_Zeno]

More thoughts:
Station security forces should be hired by the station administrator (player) in a similar manner to npc crew, more money better the pilot and better the ship they have. Obviously if you want a black market then having a security force would discourage one forming.
Medical facilities (Medbay upto Hospital) would increase the popularity of the outpost, assuming you have a steady supply of medical resources.
Laboratories for creating chemicals (inc medkits).
Another issue the admin would have to deal with is waste, having it mount up is bad so is dumping it in space.

The whole outpost thing would be a massive resource hog especially in the beginning, so the chance of failing and the station becoming derelict would be quite high... Derelict station = pirate haven

 

[lenna]

Starting to think theres some sorta agenda to just say no to everything from you ^

Resorting to personal attacks now?

I don't need to play a game to understand the negative effects it has had on the gaming community... this kind of attitude speaks volumes. Can't come up with a valid counter to my counter points, so resort to swearing and/or personal attacks.

 

[lenna]

Fringe benefits won't be abused, they can't be abused

You are so naïve... IMO... You seem to ignore the ways such things can be abused which I have highlighted on several occasions.

We want bases because we want new ways to interact with the game on planets WITH OUR FRIENDS.

That reads to me like you want to hang out with your friends at a base... hardly a hyperbole interpretation.

As for ED, I have only been truly against arbitrary placement of bases and bases which have a cross-instance impact since both aspects could be easily abused by players... Your counter to that was it would be too much work for FD... well IMO is that it would be too much work for FD to deal with the fall-out of allowing such things. They have procedural generation algorithms already for the population of the universe, and adding player base locations to that mix would probably be less work than introducing a whole new mechanic to build bases (especially temporary ones).

 

[Avetorian]

You are so naïve... IMO... You seem to ignore the ways such things can be abused which I have highlighted on several occasions.


That reads to me like you want to hang out with your friends at a base... hardly a hyperbole interpretation.

As for ED, I have only been truly against arbitrary placement of bases and bases which have a cross-instance impact since both aspects could be easily abused by players... Your counter to that was it would be too much work for FD... well IMO is that it would be too much work for FD to deal with the fall-out of allowing such things. They have procedural generation algorithms already for the population of the universe, and adding player base locations to that mix would probably be less work than introducing a whole new mechanic to build bases (especially temporary ones).

My counter to it was that there was no reason not to, and your counter points, as stated by OTHER people have largely nothing to do with the BGS since there is no real way a small little player house would have such an impact on the BGS. You are completely delusional and are hiding behind your hatred for EVE online. It's in so many of your posts, your only back up is that it essentially would be too much work for FD, but you fail to say why, you fail to say how, and you fail to realize that FD has an interest in this feature themselves, I've quoted the developers statements, I showed you a video from 2014, you can look at the grand vision they have for this game by researching the forums.

Ahem.

Short answer: this is not a certain other space based MMO,

This sounds TOO much like moving in the direction of EvE... No, Thank You.

Player owned bases would add nothing but further opportunities for players to harass and grief each other.

There are other BETTER ways exploration can be enhanced with out resorting to the depraved depths of EvE like mechanics.

Then go play EvE or other group/faction/empire based game...

and when someone finds a hole in your argument you run back to... you guessed it

I don't want Elite to become a completely free to play (or just buy to play) equivalent of EvE - I have avoided EvE for this very reason and would consider steps in the direction some want it to go a betrayal of the trust of the user base. .

Eve online. A game you never g played, and claim to know the mechanics of. Right on.

 

[lenna]

...

You hide behind your love of EvE on-line using it like some kind of shield to justify your crusade for a certain type of gameplay. Your repeated raising of how great EvE is, is the only reason why I point you in the direction of EvE where base building mechanics are concerned. If some one used X as a rational for it, I would point them at that game too.

My personal opinions of EvE are largely moot, I will never consider it or any other game a good justification to consider any given mechanic.

My arguments against player owned/controlled facilities that have cross-instance impact are based on numerous reasons... largely the same reasons why I think adding an MMO element to the X-series would be disastrous for that game.

It is not just about direct impact of bases on the BGS but how players could use such things for area denial, stock-piling trading goods (which could be used to adversely affect trading for others), potentially by-passing the limits of the pending crime and punishment measures, and many other game balance related reasons.

If FD do ever implement player owned facilities, I hope they keep in mind all of the above and do not err on the side of implementing mechanics that penalise players that choose to play in any mode but Open... (i.e. no player zone control/area denial mechanics).

We have seen how certain groups have tried to infiltrate PvE groups to cause trouble, cross-instance player owned/controlled facilities would basically provide a way to do that by proxy if implemented in the way that some want to see them done.

Personally, I think the only way to avoid the problem is to effectively have the kinds of facilities some want to see neither owned nor controlled by players - especially where arbitrary placement of them is concerned. Allowing such things is a can of worms that FD seems to be ill-prepared for currently IMO - at least based on their handling of balancing issues to date. ALOT of damage can be done by players in a very short time.

The temporary base/campsite debate is a side issue, but my concerns could be mitigated by not allowing certain facilities at such bases - i.e. no storage nor repair facilities. Repair facilities might not be so bad if they are implemented in the right way - maybe synthesis like in nature with a high material/resource cost per percentage of repair. If allowed, it would need to be balanced VERY carefully so as to make it very hard to exploit by those who might have more disruptive uses for such places and features.

WRT the "potential" player owned facilities/bases falling into disrepair - I think they should be annexed automatically by the most appropriate local BGS faction if such a thing were to ever be allowed.

Personally, I would rather all cross-instance features be owned/controlled by minor factions and kept under the heel of the BGS.

 

[Omgzzwtf]

I would like to see the ability to claim a station, outpost, or other landable object as a home location. Doing so would give you some benefits but should require some pre-requisites.

• Payment of a one-time fee to purchase living/storage space. This amount would depend on size/accommodation (luxury/bare-bones & amount of space for ships/modules/materials/etc)

• At least cordial with the faction in charge at the time
• Possibly required to complete a special mission for the really nice ones
• Rank lock certain ones to require a certain rank in combat/exploration/trading?

Some of the benefits could be that you can still access the boards during a lockdown, since you are a resident, and know who to go to to get what you need.

You could get reduced prices on some goods/services in your home. maybe reduced ship/mod delivery times, and it would be the only place you can store materials or data

 

[lenna]

I would like to see the ability to claim a station, outpost, or other landable object as a home location. Doing so would give you some benefits but should require some pre-requisites.

• Payment of a one-time fee to purchase living/storage space. This amount would depend on size/accommodation (luxury/bare-bones & amount of space for ships/modules/materials/etc)

• At least cordial with the faction in charge at the time
• Possibly required to complete a special mission for the really nice ones
• Rank lock certain ones to require a certain rank in combat/exploration/trading?

Some of the benefits could be that you can still access the boards during a lockdown, since you are a resident, and know who to go to to get what you need.

You could get reduced prices on some goods/services in your home. maybe reduced ship/mod delivery times, and it would be the only place you can store materials or data

Other than the material/cargo storage options, I generally like this basic idea... assuming you are not actually talking about controlling/owning the station/outpost.

We already have free storage for modules/ships and I think the current limits are more than adequate for now. We should probably be limited to one such base of operations and the one off fee could include any relocation costs. If you want to move back to a previous residence, the current full fees should still apply IMO.

I kind of see this idea as in-line with the general premise of things described in the Drew Wagner Elite books. For example, owning an estate located in the habitation ring of a Coriolis station.

 

[Rustnsawdust]

rlsg, just repped you for your conduct in this thread (and others). Your patience, reason, logical argument and refusal to rise to personal attacks has been exemplary.

I've followed the thread (and similar) with interest because I have mixed feelings about it. But I have come to - at least - two conclusions:
1. No player should be able to make money or rank without actively playing the game. So whatever form player-owned bases might take, they cannot generate money while the player is offline. So no markets, black markets, re-fuelling, selling of modules or weapons.
2. Player-owned bases should be *exactly* like any other player-owned asset - ie, it should be possible to destroy, or damage it (or somewhere down the line, steal it). There cannot be a case where a player can gain any reward from in-game assets with no associated risk.

It goes without saying (but I'll say it anyway) that those two conditions apply across all ED modes - including Solo, so NPCs should be able to attack, damage, destroy or blockade the base.

 

[Avetorian]

You hide behind your love of EvE on-line using it like some kind of shield to justify your crusade for a certain type of gameplay. Your repeated raising of how great EvE is, is the only reason why I point you in the direction of EvE where base building mechanics are concerned. If some one used X as a rational for it, I would point them at that game too.

My personal opinions of EvE are largely moot, I will never consider it or any other game a good justification to consider any given mechanic.

Because you keep talking about EVE like you know everything it has to offer, you don't appreciate how the systems are interconnected with one another. Unlike Elite, EVE has crime and punishment, where there effectively is NONE in Elite, at least not in any significant way that can really affect the player. Turns out that EVE handles crime and punishment far better than Elite does.

So moving on from EVE. you say that players can use bases to grief or as systems to hide behind crime and punishment. Well no they can't because they can't produce commodities, they don't build ships and eventually they will need the bubble if they are effectively exiled from it. What I find irritating with your posts, is you are finding the worst possible form of implementation and then throwing that onto us, and provide some alternative that does not satisfy the proposed topic of this thread, which is how player bases could work.

Myself, Cosmo, Verminstar, and others have suggested the idea of putting down a little hut for ourselves somewhere, in such away that it does not affect you, not even if they can repair their ships, (because that's already coming) the first discovery market will always be available, there will always be new systems to explore, I bet you a million dollars a lot of people are waiting until we can land on atmospheric worlds (Ice, Volcanic) before going back out there, and some people don't want to have anything to do with human space, so why should they be forced to? again blaze your own trail.

In whatever way player bases are implemented you can be sure FD is not stupid to allow a griefing system, then again the UA bombing thing does exist, which I think is but hey. They will find a way to make it work, and options will eventually exist for everyone.

A few pages back I said we define our own needs and desires through in whatever virtual realm we interact with. This is no different than that, everyone has a niche, some people want to stay on their ships, some people want to go somewhere and form a community, some people want to destroy communities, some people want to pirate, or just burn everything, some people just want to see the sights, some people want live a nomads way of life. So on and so forth.

I'll say it again, there is enough room in the galaxy for everyone to have their cup of tea. I'll keep saying this until the end of time.

 

[Cmnd Fulsom]

You know, even if the system does allow greifing, or facilitate players to run from the consequences of griefing, (which is ridiculous, since bounties only apply in single systems for the most part anyway and anarchy systems just exist and many have stations) I would be fine with that. You know, it really is the wild west. If you get into some heat it really should be possible to just run to your hidden asteroid base and wait until the heat cools down. On the other hand, I also think that we need marshals too. I think that the bounty hunters that chase you if you have a bounty out on you should increase in rank and then start coming in wings as your total bounties climb.

I'll also go farther than some others too, I think players should be able to incorporate from their little bases, and eventually with enough money and community support build them up into actual stations. The background sim can already faclitate the placing of stations without the devs needing to shut down the server. It's not so farfetched to think that one day the BGS could dynamically build up outposts bigger and bigger as more and more resources are poured into them.


Stay Frosty



Cmnd Fulsom

 

[DNA-Decay]

Sorry wut?

You want a base that's connected to the universe enough that you have to ship supplies.
But disconnected enough that it's invulnerable to BGS effects and can only ever belong to you.
And you want to be able to say who can come and go from there?

Uh - that's not Elite.

Not sure what that is.

 

[Cmnd Fulsom]

Additionally, it's also not what anyone in this thread said.


I do think it would be cool though, if the smallest bases were only capable of storing things you bring, so you can load up a weapons cache/ammo dump, ect, but as they grow they'll begin to gain space for actual facilities. That would be cool.

Stay Frosty


Cmnd Fulsom

 

[Wiskey Echo]

Ok so moving on, As more "recipes" are added to the synthesis so will the time we (the commanders) spend aimlessly driving around planets waiting for the triple RNG of surface deposits to shine in our favor. As I've previously alluded to, currently when you abandon (dismiss) your ship it is completely uninvolved in surface operations. A suggestion I have grown quite fond of recently is the possibility that we could deploy "mining towers" similar to the current NPC mining operations that we find planet side. Unlike these NPC sites, one would have to be thoughtful where they deploy them and would of course have to return in order to pick up the materials.

I know this flies in the face of the "anti-automation" crowd but as there is already a separate threads on the subject of "grinding materials" and how boring it is (as well as removing the arbitrary inventory limit in favor of individual stack size), supplemental material income could be provided by these player deployables. Once again this effects ONLY player progress and their individual game experience.

Furthermore the dependence on outside tools has been raised multiple times by the cannon thread, specifically the requirement to use outside programs to decode spectograph messages given to us by the thargoid sites. In this regard had player bases already been implemented FDev wouldn't have had to "hand-wave" these new listening posts into existence a few weeks back, the base owners could have simply started receiving unknown transmissions. Furthermore in actually RL archaeology scaffolding and other structures are almost immediately erected around newly discovered sites, further creating that "living world" feel.

In this regard I revisit the only talking point that received relevant response from my last post, the "game world" that FDev has created is massive but it is EMPTY there are systems with supposedly billions of people living in them yet this is simply a stat for the BGS. Again currently there are active threads talking about how "bland" elite is atm, from moon landings to the lack of station / ship variation. The ability to actually "live" in this world vs just having stations, ships, crew etc simply manifest themselves into existence.

(I blatantly stole this from Tim C on stack exchange) who defines player agency by three criteria:

1. The player has control over their own character's decisions.
2. Those decisions have consequences within the game world.
3. The player has enough information to anticipate what those consequences might be before making them.

Currently these principles are being violated while we have control over our ships the "player" simply exists as simple picture in chat. Being "wanted" is a laughable experience and the only reliable way to build new stations is wait for "community" goals. In a live stream earlier this year Fdev confirmed that after an entire 12 months of "power play" the supper power distribution had not changed in the slightest. Despite the actions of thousands of players we had accomplished NOTHING and our exploration efforts have slowed when compared to previous years. Finally as the current "Sirius Business Operation" evolves we may finally be able to see the marginal effects of player actions.

In conclusion the players of Elite currently mean nothing and do nothing, you are all Holograms, go back to your preprogrammed subroutines.

 

[Avetorian]

Sorry wut?

You want a base that's connected to the universe enough that you have to ship supplies.
But disconnected enough that it's invulnerable to BGS effects and can only ever belong to you.
And you want to be able to say who can come and go from there?

Uh - that's not Elite.

Not sure what that is.

Ignorance is bliss isn't it. Thankfully the galaxy is big enough for you to remain ignorant, and everyone else to enjoy their cup of tea.

Additionally, it's also not what anyone in this thread said.


I do think it would be cool though, if the smallest bases were only capable of storing things you bring, so you can load up a weapons cache/ammo dump, ect, but as they grow they'll begin to gain space for actual facilities. That would be cool.

Stay Frosty


Cmnd Fulsom

I like that approach, could work, It will be interesting to examine what angles of approach F-Dev plans to handle this eventual rocky road. But yeah an organic element to the system in which bases grow into something through player or NPC growth depending on location could be interesting.

 

[Cmnd Fulsom]

I can imagine all sorts of uses for something like that. Like, I could see explorers setting up little "truck stops" out in the black, and filling them up with the synthesis materials for fuel, repair limpets, and FSD boosts and then having a big community effort to keep a web of locations for these caches all across these uninhabited worlds logged and stocked for the benefit of those out exploring. Which would be great, and eventually, if these areas get enough traffic it might even be a way to organically expand the human habitation of the galaxy as people move farther and father out to support the explorers.


Stay Frosty


Cmnd Fulsom

 

[Avetorian]

I can imagine all sorts of uses for something like that. Like, I could see explorers setting up little "truck stops" out in the black, and filling them up with the synthesis materials for fuel, repair limpets, and FSD boosts and then having a big community effort to keep a web of locations for these caches all across these uninhabited worlds logged and stocked for the benefit of those out exploring. Which would be great, and eventually, if these areas get enough traffic it might even be a way to organically expand the human habitation of the galaxy as people move farther and father out to support the explorers.


Stay Frosty


Cmnd Fulsom

Hell yeah, I like that idea, explorers don't get enough support as it is, this would go along way for them and encourage more exploration. After all explores find the stuff, everyone else plays with it. They need more support for sure.

 

[lenna]

some people don't want to have anything to do with human space, so why should they be forced to? again blaze your own trail.

Short version... why are they even playing the game then?

Using your reasoning even the most unreasonable features could be justified... I am sorry but that is not the way things do nor should work.

You have to engage with human space for ships, equipment, and certain ammo types (e.g. Heat Sinks) that can not be synthesised (at least currently - and probably for good balancing reasons), in addition it is required to hand in exploration data.

Whether hull repair limpets ever surface or not is pretty moot since the limpets would need to be purchased (current mechanics limits) and that means only "limited" in the field hull repairs. I also doubt "Power Plant" repairs would be included with that feature. On this basis allowing ship repairs in the field like you could get at a regular station is an unreasonable expectation. As has been pointed out by a few ppl in this thread, people do stay out in the void for months on end even without such facilities so there is currently nothing actually stopping you from doing the same. If you are sensible with your throttle control, you probably will never (or at least rarely) find hull integrity a major concern.

If a base is accessible cross-instances it can affect EVERYONE's game play to some degree or another. That is an unavoidable fact, and leads to an unacceptable situation since the universe is a shared state and any cross-instance persisting features are more than likely going to affect everyone regardless of their mode of play.

I am sorry but I totally disagree with your overall stance and approach to the issues at hand - you apparently have ZERO grasp of all the issues in play and seem to be hell bent focused and totally inflexible.

Thankfully, FD tends to listen to everyone and given this I reckon you may be disappointed with what they eventually implement in this area (if anything).

 

[lenna]

Additionally, it's also not what anyone in this thread said.

Actually, it is pretty much what some people seem to be asking for... Al33's post #249 could be read as being exactly that.

Whether that is what they meant or not is another matter but what many have been asking for is at least a 90% fit to DNA's summary.

 

[Avetorian]

Thankfully, FD tends to listen to everyone and given this I reckon you may be disappointed with what they eventually implement in this area (if anything).

I sure as hell hope they don't listen to you, because your mindset is basically, no player ownership of anything that they have control over other than ships. No player governed anything because you think it will become EVE online. You're arguments are hyperbolic and that's all there is too it, you offer no reasonable way or solution that this could happen. If a base is accessible across instances IT DOESN'T MATTER! because anarchy systems do already exist with bases for pirates and griefers to camp one mode they can really affect, and that's open play! There are no consequences for doing so, Look at code look at SDC and so on. No crime and punishment for them, already doing what you are SO afraid of. Have fun.

Why would a griefer go all the way out to to the galactic core and camp someones base in one mode when they can do the same over in human space with IMPUNITY because Anarachy systems, because of mode switching, and your concerned about some poor little guy out in the core having a base? give me a break.

Now people in the void not interacting with the bubble are playing the game because they found something in it they enjoy, and it doesn't involve your human bubble, and they are requesting more things that would enhance their experience out there. I disagree with your stance, and I'm going to agree to disagree, I don't think theres any point in going in circles with you, because you keep retorting the same crap and making garbage accusations. You have zero grasp of the larger picture, and can't seem to understand that many people want to do different things, and if they don't consign to your little rule set you've prescribed "Oh well why are they even playing the game?" right?

But you're right, I'm hell bent on the idea that players should be able to put a house down somewhere, its a big galaxy, there's plenty of room to do whatever the hell you want realistically and for it to have no real bearing on any other part of the galaxy. My stance is not going to change on this, because you are never gonna see one player faction dominating the galaxy it's never going to happen, even with bases. By the way, I've been to Sag A, I was out of the bubble for 6 months in a python, I came back for 2.3 and the new content, not because I had to. I'd just like more stuff to do, more things to interact with, It just so happens that having my own little base somewhere I can continue doing my own thing is one of those things.

Oh and btw, It was kind of boring because I couldn't really do anything out there.

Nice pictures though.

 

[Cmnd Fulsom]

Actually, it is pretty much what some people seem to be asking for... Al33's post #249 could be read as being exactly that.

Whether that is what they meant or not is another matter but what many have been asking for is at least a 90% fit to DNA's summary.

I assure you, having just gone back and read that post, you are either misunderstanding or deliberately misrepresenting that post.


Stay Frosty


Cmnd Fulsom