how does ED compare to SC ?

StarTux

S
izzy said:
Yed Michael said that the first buid will be only SP missions (dogfighting and perhaps other things) :) There will be some builds for alpha phase :D
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I am in the Alpha for Il2:BOS and currently we're limited to Tuesday to Thursday play times, as is this the second week it maybe a bit of time before this gets opened up to more days. Really not sure what Frontier will do, every company has its needs/wants from Alpha's/Beta's so we shall have to wait and see, but best to be prepared in case we get the same limited days. Oh for SOTA Alpha is literally two days...
 
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Jack Booted Thug

J
Mike Evans said:
Yeah it's not an FPS, trying to line up your gun sights with a mouse isn't anything like doing so in a typical FPS game. I mean we could have made it so your guns track where your mouse is and shoots towards that but then we would have a balance problem on our hands so we didn't. Plus this game incentiveses pitching and rolling not yaw so even if they do use a mouse to aim their ships it's going to slow going for them if they expect it to work like a FPS. Much better to roll and then pitch to turn for example.
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Yay.

Just like in the original.
 

Mephane

Mephane
Mike Evans said:
Yeah it's not an FPS, trying to line up your gun sights with a mouse isn't anything like doing so in a typical FPS game. I mean we could have made it so your guns track where your mouse is and shoots towards that but then we would have a balance problem on our hands so we didn't. Plus this game incentiveses pitching and rolling not yaw so even if they do use a mouse to aim their ships it's going to slow going for them if they expect it to work like a FPS. Much better to roll and then pitch to turn for example.
Click to expand...

Now what mouse control system is ED going to use? I know of two schemes that are done in games, those are

a) Mouse position = joystick position. A cursor may either be displayed and used as a freely movable crosshair (e.g Freelancer) or the cursor is hidden and weapons and crosshair are still fixed in a forward position (e.g. Strike Suit Zero).

b) Mouse position = spaceship orientation. Rate of change in the mouse' position equals the rate of change in the ship's orientiation (which will also lag behind that movement, of course, due to simulated inertia).

Scheme b) has the disadvantage that it is virtually impossible to maintain a steady rate of rotation ever, it will always be jerky, because it actually is basically identical to how an FPS is controlled. It also requires to lift up the mouse and reposition it frequently in tight maneuvers, or set mouse sensitivity extremely high and thus trade in precision for the reduced to move the mouse around all the time.

Scheme a) has the disadvantage that is is virtually impossible to maintain a straight heading unless mouse control can be actively disengaged. In the case of Freelancer, you could use spacebar to toggle between mouse control on and off, additionally mouse control is active whenever the left mouse button is being kept held pressed (in Freelancer, when mouse control is off the mouse can also be used to interact with the HUD).

I am now wondering which of the schemes ED will employ. You agree with a post that states ED will be nothing like Freelancer in terms of mouse control. But Freelancer indeed uses the much smoother scheme a), thus I am now worried we might end up with scheme b), which I consider absolutely horrible, to the point where I think games like that are unplayable with a mouse.

Or will ED use a different solution c) which I am simply unaware of?
 
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Mike Evans

Designer- Elite: Dangerous
Frontier
Mephane said:
Now what mouse control system is ED going to use? I know of two schemes that are done in games, those are

a) Mouse position = joystick position. A cursor may either be displayed and used as a freely movable crosshair (e.g Freelancer) or the cursor is hidden and weapons and crosshair are still fixed in a forward position (e.g. Strike Suit Zero).

b) Mouse position = spaceship orientation. Rate of change in the mouse' position equals the rate of change in the ship's orientiation (which will also lag behind that movement, of course, due to simulated inertia).

Scheme b) has the disadvantage that it is virtually impossible to maintain a steady rate of rotation ever, it will always be jerky, because it actually is basically identical to how an FPS is controlled. It also requires to lift up the mouse and reposition it frequently in tight maneuvers, or set mouse sensitivity extremely high and thus trade in precision for the reduced to move the mouse around all the time.

Scheme a) has the disadvantage that is is virtually impossible to maintain a straight heading unless mouse control can be actively disengaged. In the case of Freelancer, you could use spacebar to toggle between mouse control on and off, additionally mouse control is active whenever the left mouse button is being kept held pressed (in Freelancer, when mouse control is off the mouse can also be used to interact with the HUD).

I am now wondering which of the schemes ED will employ. You agree with a post that states ED will be nothing like Freelancer in terms of mouse control. But Freelancer indeed uses the much smoother scheme a), thus I am now worried we might end up with scheme b), which I consider absolutely horrible, to the point where I think games like that are unplayable with a mouse.

Or will ED use a different solution c) which I am simply unaware of?
Click to expand...

I said that you don't fire weapons like you do in freelancer not that the control scheme is nothing like it. We actually have both methods described above implemented but let me go into detail on them:

Absolute Positioning Mouse Control
This works like you described; i.e. a virtual joystick controlled by the mouse. At the moment we don't actually have the mouse cursor on the screen yet but this will be going in soon as I believe it's a necessity for this control method to work. We have two versions of this scheme; one for pitch and roll (default for mouse control) and one for pitch and yaw. Both of those also have versions that invert the pitch if desired. To solve the issue of not being able to fly straight we just have a small dead zone around the centre of the screen which should allow easy straight flying once you can see the cursor and place it within.


Relative Positioning Mouse Control
This works somewhat like you describe but it's actually built off of the above method. It basically works the same except when you've finished moving the mouse on the "virtual joystick" and the ship begins to move in the desired way the input is moved back to the centre position automatically. This results in the movement of the ship coming to a rest quickly after moving the mouse thus requiring you to keep scrolling the mouse to keep moving as in an FPS game. The issue with this scheme though is that it doesn't work well at all with a pitch and yaw scheme (contrary to how FPS players would expect it to work) because we've deliberately crippled the ships ability to yaw in favour of pitching and rolling. Thus I decided to leave out the pitch and yaw version of this scheme and only keep a pitch and roll version. There is also an inverted pitch version for those that require it. This scheme doesn't require a mouse cursor though to function so it has a slight advantage there.

Both of the above schemes move the ship but none of them do anything extra for your guns firing angle so there is no advantage to be gained by being quick with the mouse. Your ability to aim is limited by your ships manoeuvrability and your control of it.
 

Tinman

Tinman
Mike Evans said:
I said that you don't fire weapons like you do in freelancer not that the control scheme is nothing like it. We actually have both methods described above implemented but let me go into detail on them:

Absolute Positioning Mouse Control
This works like you described; i.e. a virtual joystick controlled by the mouse. At the moment we don't actually have the mouse cursor on the screen yet but this will be going in soon as I believe it's a necessity for this control method to work. We have two versions of this scheme; one for pitch and roll (default for mouse control) and one for pitch and yaw. Both of those also have versions that invert the pitch if desired. To solve the issue of not being able to fly straight we just have a small dead zone around the centre of the screen which should allow easy straight flying once you can see the cursor and place it within.


Relative Positioning Mouse Control
This works somewhat like you describe but it's actually built off of the above method. It basically works the same except when you've finished moving the mouse on the "virtual joystick" and the ship begins to move in the desired way the input is moved back to the centre position automatically. This results in the movement of the ship coming to a rest quickly after moving the mouse thus requiring you to keep scrolling the mouse to keep moving as in an FPS game. The issue with this scheme though is that it doesn't work well at all with a pitch and yaw scheme (contrary to how FPS players would expect it to work) because we've deliberately crippled the ships ability to yaw in favour of pitching and rolling. Thus I decided to leave out the pitch and yaw version of this scheme and only keep a pitch and roll version. There is also an inverted pitch version for those that require it. This scheme doesn't require a mouse cursor though to function so it has a slight advantage there.

Both of the above schemes move the ship but none of them do anything extra for your guns firing angle so there is no advantage to be gained by being quick with the mouse. Your ability to aim is limited by your ships manoeuvrability and your control of it.
Click to expand...

Just release the Alpha already! It's going to save you time compared to typing these things out! ;)
 

Cmdr Eagleboy

Cmdr Eagleboy
StarTux said:
I am in the Alpha for Il2:BOS and currently we're limited to Tuesday to Thursday play times, as is this the second week it maybe a bit of time before this gets opened up to more days. Really not sure what Frontier will do, every company has its needs/wants from Alpha's/Beta's so we shall have to wait and see, but best to be prepared in case we get the same limited days. Oh for SOTA Alpha is literally two days...
Click to expand...

So far answers from FD indicates there will be no time limits.
 

Rog

Rog
Looks pretty! I have to say though that planetary landings are going to feature in possibly the first E: D expansion, and we're hoping for something truly stunning there too.

Loved that IL2:BOS vid that StarTux posted too.

Need moar monies!
 

synchromesh

synchromesh
Here the difference in both games ( From my point of view )

Star Citizen is an Epic, Cinematic experience probably the best space opera ever....Just like all the other Wing commander games..
Star Citizen is the Ultimate space game to play and I want it as much as ED

Elite Dangerous....More like real life in the future....You get up in the morning to go to work....anything can happen...you choose.. Mining, Assassin, pirate or explorer.. pick a mission from the bulletin boards...Hire yourself out ...It is literally another life..just do what you like and when you like..

Elite Dangerous is another way of life and not so much a game and I want it as much as SC

Both games will be a totally different experience and unless your nuts....you will own both
 

PacalB

PacalB
synchromesh said:
Here the difference in both games ( From my point of view )

Star Citizen is an Epic, Cinematic experience probably the best space opera ever....Just like all the other Wing commander games..
Star Citizen is the Ultimate space game to play and I want it as much as ED

Elite Dangerous....More like real life in the future....You get up in the morning to go to work....anything can happen...you choose.. Mining, Assassin, pirate or explorer.. pick a mission from the bulletin boards...Hire yourself out ...It is literally another life..just do what you like and when you like..

Elite Dangerous is another way of life and not so much a game and I want it as much as SC

Both games will be a totally different experience and unless your nuts....you will own both
Click to expand...

+1

I'd agree with all of that. I'd say, I want ED a weee bit more though just because I've always wanted to get out into space. ED seems to be the closest damn thing we'll get to it for a long time (galaxy wise). :)
 

Jason S

J
If you like Space Games it is not so expensive to dip your toe in both as there is no monthly subscription for either.

That is if you can meet the min requirements for the games although Elite Dangerous is a little more gentle on not demanding such a monster PC as Star Citizen.
 

synchromesh

synchromesh
PacalB said:
+1

I'd agree with all of that. I'd say, I want ED a weee bit more though just because I've always wanted to get out into space. ED seems to be the closest damn thing we'll get to it for a long time (galaxy wise). :)
Click to expand...

Given the choice of being stuck on a desert Island with only one of the games then it would have to be Elite Dangerous as much as I want to play SC..

1... Because I have waited 20 years for it..

2... Because you really can live another Virtual Life..
 

CTR69

C
It looks to me the Elite forums are more quiet, the way i like it and how SC used to be, but now they're taking all the mainstream battering. I can't imagine staying there when the DFM gets out, lol.

I imagine this wont' be such a problem here with the alpha and that's a very good thing.
 
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