Can't help myself Brokk, see em lurking under bridges, must feed em!
Powerplay How is Powerplay not open only yet?
Can't help myself Brokk, see em lurking under bridges, must feed em!
it is only a matter of perspective, the forumdads have the forum version pvp, others prefer to play with plasmas and rails and enjoy the game.
its just two different sides of the same coin.
its just two different sides of the same coin.
Better idea, lock all PvP to CQC - after all, that was designed as PVP only.
Then all PvP can be removed from PGs and Open, which will encourage more people to play PP in Open than have ever played it in Open before.
But Powerplay is about conflict, so how would removing any chance of it help the current design?
Powerplay fails because NPCs just don't provide resistance. Unless its reworked currently only players can offer that in some way.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
It's only about direct conflict for those who engage in it in Open and encounter those pledged to opposing Powers. The conflict for those not in the same mode (or platform) is indirect.
Hopefully the challenge posed by Powerplay NPCs would be addressed in any update to the feature.
Its about conflict and mitigating it- either NPCs or players. NPCs have no way to molest or even divert you when you travel about. Without that, Powerplay is just a DPD simulation.
Well, its needed because without it Powerplay has no real 'meat' to it. Territories are meaningless since you are left alone regardless of where you are (and only get hostile if you carry merits or bounties), hauling is hassle free...Powerplay tries to scale NPCs to it but fails and brings the feature down with it.
I probably should have put a sarcasm tag on my post, I'm fed up with constantly reading stupid suggestions that have already had an answer by Frontier. So decided to make a stupid suggestion myself.
However, as you've asked a valid question I will answer it.
Players do currently provide resistance, just not primarily with their guns.
PowerPlay is a PvE token pushing game with optional PvP. You know this, it's been explained, repeatedly, for years.
What it needs is the NPCs fixing, but that can be said for the entire game if we are going to be completely honest. Because AFK gameplay shouldn't be a thing and the NPC pirates are awful. When I flew a Type 9 I used to just park up when NPC pirates attacked so I could collect the bounty vouchers to go with my massive haul of gold. There should never be any circumstance I was able to level my combat rank in a space lorry full of valuable cargo. Yet I have.
Even now with my Cutter, I just boost once then jump.
So by fixing the AI and tweaking the PP NPCs you get the extra resistance you want and it effects Solo Mode.
You are incorrect though.
Part of Powerplay is 'token pushing'- and even then thats debatable. The other answer depends wholly on what FD intend to do- if they keep the current framework then NPCs can't be made to work any better because the point to point flight is set by PvE outside the feature.
Combat powers have 'the best' PvE in Powerplay because they have explicit zones for it, and powers can UM. Once outside of that PvE falls totally apart as hauling goes uncontested- its here and general traversal around the bubble Powerplay just falls over because the PvE layer is underpowered and ill fitting.
So you have the merit generation half (for combat powers only) and then........nothing else. Its in this empty half PvP should fit in, or better NPCs. But as I pointed out above thats impossible currently because point to point flight has no risks attached- you take off in safety, jump in safety x times and the only marginal risk is in SC at the destination- and even then you bypass NAVs, drop down into a stations protection immediately. So hauling has really no PvE attached to it at all.
Powerplays problems stem from too much of it is optional and skippable.
But I'm not though, NPC whack-a-mole for merits is so dull and inefficient token pushing beats it hands down.
It really does come down to what is the best use of your time, which is token pushing.
NPCs can be made to do whatever is needed. And as there are PP specific NPCs, then even if the rest are left in meh mode. The PP ones can be made to pose a threat to those doing PP.
The only "ill-fitting" part is PvP, as PP was designed around Solo mode, with token pushing and NPC whack-a-mole.
In fact, PvP is so bad, look at how Frontier had to deal with PvP cheating in PP when it came out. By making players worthless targets.
Just as players killing players became a problem elsewhere I the game and aspects of the game got massive nerfs.
All PvP has ever done in Elite is cause problems.
The only part skippable is PvP. The problems stem from over-entitled people trying to force me to play their game - which was never on the cards in Elite.
Right from day one, it was made clear PvP is optional.
Then you don't get the problem. 'Token pushing' needs someone or something to make your efforts < 100% efficient- i.e., provide some form of immediate pushback that is not simply chasing a graph. We do fly spaceships in this game.
They can't. For NPCs to be any threat they need to be numerous in SC, station drop points further back from stations and infested with them, NAV points utilized, and engineered.
This is what I meant by FD reworking Powerplay- if they don't rework that transport loop then the above can't be changed because it impacts the wider game, but is the only way NPCs can be made to even annoy players.
PvP is the only part that makes sense, because only players can think beyond the immediate area they exist in. Powerplay is one giant bubble wide POI essentially- but NPCs lack persistence across systems and consistency inside them. Players can adapt to a rivals plans and (currently) somewhat block them if they are in the same mode / instance...which is the biggest flaw in this. Outside of that the UI, pledge, territory / limited actions / real time nature of the action supports PvP because you can instantly tell who is doing what and when as well as where.
PvP 'cheating' (in this case collusion piracy) was a stupid loophole because there is no rep penalty for losing cargo- it can be designed out but takes volition from FD.
The modes have caused problems and how features are made to stretch over all of them. Its peoples misunderstanding of Open thats the problem too.
And in my view everyone should have a part to play, but instead of the jumbled mess FD expect to work focus roles on modes that fit. Its why my only open suggestion separates out Open and Solo roles, and that they support each other but don't trip each other up.
I don't want ED to be totally open- the BGS is just not set up for it, and that would be unfair. However, the parts of Powerplay that benefit Open should go open totally, while the parts that suit solo should be polished and added.
I know the honest problem, your grasping at straws and making excuses for your argument.
We fly our spaceships in various modes on various platforms. We don't "need" direct PvP "pushback" in any shape or form.
Because that is how the entire game, including Power Play, was made. So we can solo the entire game.
Indirect PvP is the only real PvP in Elite.
Completely wrong, because you refuse to acknowledge that Frontier can do something with the NPCs - they just haven't. This is another argument, we all should be making together.
They can increase the number of PP NPCs in SC, which is doable in a heartbeat. They can make them more aggressive, they can make them interdict more often, they can make them sing and dance if they want, but they seem to refuse to do anything with the NPCs.
LMAO.
Yeah, only for someone who can only see as far as the end of their gun barrels. But thanks for the laugh, I needed that today.
3 game modes, 3 platforms.... the only consistent thing is the NPCs.
You put too much faith in other players for a start, that is a major flaw. I mean come on, you see how stupidly people play the game now, the mode system has nothing to do with that. People always choose the dumbest, latest way of doing things. I played EVE Online, an open only, server-client game and people did the dumbest things thinking they were helping. Second funniest thing you've said
lolPlus you know how broken the P2P networking is, so even with Open only content, there will be thousands of people that will never be seen or challenged due to their network settings or just rubbish ISP. Or have you forgotten the farce of the game's launch when Twitch streamers spent hours in popular systems not seeing anyone or each other - due to 1 single network command Frontier left turned off?
Open only anything in Elite is a flawed concept outright. It always was thanks to P2P and all its problems.
Now, if Fronter made Elite: Dangerous 2 with an actual server-client model, then I'd be happy to jump on that bandwagon for an open only game. As it would work, complete with anti-cheat software and reduced network issues.
I'm not grasping at straws, because thats the problem. I'll say it again because you seem ignorant to it:
If FD can't or won't radically change how hauling is done, then there is precious little they can do to jazz up NPCs. The only way to provide some form of capable resistance (network limitations permitting) within those confines is making that part Open only, because pledges are not restricted in what they can equip, plan or do.
Powerplay was slowly killed because its all indirect. Its just you pushing a bar up over and over, with each run being the same. If PvE can't be radically changed then PvP is the next best thing.
You just don't see the problems.
You can't double PP NPCs in SC because each type of NPC has a quota %. You can't suddenly up it because something else gets blocked out. Non pledges in the past complained NAVs were full of useless PP NPCs- what you suggest would make that worse for them.
They can make them more aggressive, but unless you are in places that allow for them to attack then making them top end is futile.
People complain about overuse of interdictions- which feeds back to what I pointed out before with stations being to generous with protection, NAVs underused, NPC persistence and predictability.
The only way to free NPCs is to change the hauling (and indirectly combat) PvE. I've had several ideas that do just that- here is one as an example:
Powerplay in Solo
That's in the case of the current incarnation of the feature. If OP's measure was enacted, which is the substance of this thread, the roles would be reversed, or partly so. And whether or not to reverse the roles comes down to which players you want to detriment, again. In which case it's a...
This is what I mean with FD- if they choose to skimp then better PvE is not going to happen.
Well it does- players can outsmart other players and provide intelligent conflict in Powerplay. PP NPCs constrained as they are will never be able to do that in a feature thats about conflict.
Which is why I keep saying the PvE layer is the thing to fix. Its also why I highlight that if FD skimp then that ideal is a burden and not an asset. Making a feature rely on old (as in 2015 and even then that was thin) PvE is not going to work.
You put too much faith in other players for a start, that is a major flaw. I mean come on, you see how stupidly people play the game now, the mode system has nothing to do with that. People always choose the dumbest, latest way of doing things. I played EVE Online, an open only, server-client game and people did the dumbest things thinking they were helping. Second funniest thing you've said
Plus you know how broken the P2P networking is, so even with Open only content, there will be thousands of people that will never be seen or challenged due to their network settings or just rubbish ISP. Or have you forgotten the farce of the game's launch when Twitch streamers spent hours in popular systems not seeing anyone or each other - due to 1 single network command Frontier left turned off?
And you can design out these issues. For example:
Powerplay Proposal (strong anti 5C, mode specific, plus other tweaks)
This is a Powerplay overhaul proposal that uses all of Sandros ideas plus a few more based on the 3.x BGS rework to enhance the feature, and employ strong anti 5C measures. Sandro Sammarcos proposal changes are included as they were originally. Problem Powerplay does not function well across...
Open only will never be perfect for everyone, but if the majority get that then its as good as it can be. It can't be any worse then now with NPCs being as they are.
I mean, this was from ages ago but was just fine:
Doing the hauling part you're fairly reliably going to get an NPC interdiction attempt, however this is low level.
Problem is when I turned round to slap the nuisance I got slapped with the largest bounty I've ever had (by some margin) so subsequent interdiction attempts get evaded.
Problem is when I turned round to slap the nuisance I got slapped with the largest bounty I've ever had (by some margin) so subsequent interdiction attempts get evaded.
Hauling is fine, you are literally making stuff up at this point.
Players pick items in station 1, travel to station 2 and drop off - that is perfect hauling.
YOU are not responsible for providing "resistance" while they do that and you can provide that resistance to those who choose to let you. (because direct PvP is optional)
The only true "resistance" any player, in any mode on any platform should feel while doing PP is what Frontier set with their NPCs.
And Frontier, well no Sarah J Avery proved beyond all doubt she can make NPCs provide as much "resistance" as she wanted. Those in charge however made her undo some amazing changes 3 days later and dumb the AI down again. So again your whole spiel of NPCs not being capable is simply proven to be untrue.
PvE doesn't need to be changed, that's just your nonsense trying to force PvP on people who do not want it.
Also, PP isn't dead. People are doing it. You're just ignoring that fact as it undermines your argument.
Ah yes, pretend you're smarter than everyone else.
I've seen the problem from day one, it's why I have "The Wall of Information" in my sig. The problem is PvP'ers who are a small subset of loud players screaming to get their own way. Frontier said no, since 2012 they have no to open only content and here we are in 2021 and PvP'ers are still screaming. Even in the development of PP David Breben himself said no.
And who controls that quota?
Oh, Frontier.
Who can change it?
That will be Frontier again.
Again, you are telling lies. Frontier can change the NPCs as much or as little as they like. They actually have that power. Constantly saying they cannot do it is a bad reflection on you. If they want to quadruple the number of NPCs in the and make it an even split of general NPCs and PP NPCs - they can do that.
Again, Frontier have the power to do that, plus I've had NPCs follow me right up to a station attacking me. So nowhere is safe from them, it's just how much they hurt that is the issue.
And PvP'ers can choose not to gank new players..... oh wait Frontier had to add safe zones because people would rather have dumb carnage than put real effort in.
PP is being used as another conduit to gank unwilling targets and forcing open only is how to get more targets. PvP is the cancer of the game and hinders real multiplayer options.
Sorry but this is not the first-person EVE, it is not Call of Duty in space. If you cannot grasp that by now, after the CEO himself explained it and thousands of other posts explained it in detail for you, then there is nothing else to say.
I'm not making this up LOL. You just don't get how Powerplay is structured conceptually.
Powerplay is about keeping a power solvent against outside threats from up to ten other powers, be it NPC or players. Except....that does not happen in solo because NPCs are poor.
And as I keep on saying- FD can't provide NPCs with opportunities without radically changing how hauling is done. Do that and great, but in doing so overlaps with the main game uncomfortably.
You could make every PP NPC ATR level and it would not matter, because the only place you can get attacked hauling or traversing space is in SC, the same place people complain has too much SC and at other times empty flying. Now, players can help with the former, but not consistently with the latter.
I can take off in total safety because stations have a no fire zone which NPCs never break. I can fly out for miles and have no PP NPC even appear or scan me.
I then jump x times, with impunity.
I don't need to enter dangerous areas like NAVs where these 'super' AI can work.
I then arrive at my destination. Here is the only opportunity for NPCs to really attack- and even now player v NPC interdiction is easy.
I then drop directly into the stations protected zone. And and all NPCs just turn around at this point. They don't try anything, ever.
So there I just broke down why point to point flight and hauling in Powerplay against NPCs does not work, and that all the AI in the world won't change that. As I keep on repeating its not the AI thats the biggest problem, its how point to point flight is structured because all risk has been taken out of the general game here which impacts Powerplay.
Yes, Powerplay has been a massive sucess. And, none of my ideas forces PvP on people. PvP gets a role, but so does Solo in one idea. The rest are all PvE based. If I remember right you even approved of the split role idea.
And like that worked out? How players saw 5C five minutes after Powerplay was launched? How its the players pointing out issues that the devs never even contemplated?
Its even funnier that the lead dev at the time even wanted a greater role for PvP in Powerplay twice. But of course that does not count, does it?
Yes, they are going to flood systems and blot out the BGS, after the vast majority of players asked for less of them because they mess up BGS spawns. Powerplay is not popular enough to warrant that.
And how long did they last against a stations guns? Why are they dropping right into a NFZ? I've had the same and its incredibly rare. As I pointed out above by design the current setup neuters PP NPCs and all the engineering in the world won't fix that.
And PvP in Powerplay is not the same as equating PvP across the whole game.
Powerplay is unique in that its an overtly confrontational feature- NPCs and players are allowed to kill you with impunity, in an opt in feature. Its not imposed on you if you opt in to the feature and the mode.
Then what is it? What is Powerplay in this context? How does Powerplay separate and justify itself to attract new players?
I'm not asking ('shouting' in your parlance) for Open everything, just for situational PvP to have a sensible home in the main game.
So, did any of you, @Rubbernuke and @Jockey79 feel convinced by the opposite side?
Cause if not then it's really hard to get through the wall of quotes and responses and you just seem to be going back and forth without much success.
Cause if not then it's really hard to get through the wall of quotes and responses and you just seem to be going back and forth without much success.
LOL... did you write that with a straight face?
Quite easily. Like I said, in Powerplay the only real PvE is in combat zones or UM, the rest is moving it against nothing.
The irony is, I have only one Open Only idea- this one:
Powerplay Proposal (strong anti 5C, mode specific, plus other tweaks)
This is a Powerplay overhaul proposal that uses all of Sandros ideas plus a few more based on the 3.x BGS rework to enhance the feature, and employ strong anti 5C measures. Sandro Sammarcos proposal changes are included as they were originally. Problem Powerplay does not function well across...
That which Jockey actually liked once upon a time. Its as far as Open only goes with me.
The rest of my ideas are all PvE, because thats one of Powerplays worst issues.
Here are examples of ideas FD could do using what they have:
Powerplay in Solo
That's in the case of the current incarnation of the feature. If OP's measure was enacted, which is the substance of this thread, the roles would be reversed, or partly so. And whether or not to reverse the roles comes down to which players you want to detriment, again. In which case it's a...
Powerplay - Powerplay V.2 using Squadron / megaship mechanics
Wall of text alert! Powerplay is all about people (us) who support a leader who appeals to our sense of moral (im)purity and values (or lack of them!). We support them outside of the law, in essence we are paramilitary groups fighting over who is 'right'. Powerplay is always seen as an...
[POWERPLAY] Proposal for redesign using BGS style mechanics that work with the new BGS
Here is an alternative concept for Powerplay, where Powerplay works like a modifier for the BGS to make each system more unique. Unlike the current system it simulates the political aspect and is 5C proof. Powerplay V2: Expansions / prep / CC / bubbles removed and each system has every power...
'Inverted' NPC Driven Powerplay where teamplay means survival
A random thought I wanted to externalise before I forget it. Problem: in Powerplay you have two 'phases' of play- merit earning in PvE zones and merit dropping (hauling, sniping etc). In the latter you do not have effective opposition, or opposition that reacts to your efforts. This idea might...
Ideas and solutions are not the problem, its how far FD are willing to go to change things, and what / where they see Powerplay fitting in. Open Only was one of Sandros ultimate answers because Powerplay PvE is crap, and NPCs constrained as outlined above.
Interesting, because i suspect if people stopped the token pushing all powers would collapse overnight.