How long would a ship need to remain persistent to prevent a menu log from being abused?

[Nadreck]

When an engagement is initiated, then both parties at least have accepted to be present until the end of it by logging in to OPEN. No?

No. Wrong on two counts:

Firstly, merely logging into Open cannot be taken as consent to engage in any specific combat encounter (or indeed any combat encounter): merely some sort of interaction with other players.

Secondly, even if both participants wanted the fight, neither consented to ignore all possible real-world interruptions. Consent can be withdrawn if circumstances change. I wouldn't consent to play ED while my kid was tumbling down the stairs, therefore it's reasonable to assume that my prior consent is cancelled if my kid subsequently tumbles down the stairs.

And if I'm in a battle and my opponent suddenly announces that his kid has taken a tumble down the stairs, I personally wouldn't cry "waah, I wanna blow up your spaceship, you loser!!!".

 

[Threeofseven]

If the doorbell wings, I'll menu-log.

If I can't menu-log, I'll task-kill.

Pick one.

A few weeks ago I was in an intense fight when my son woke up. I had no choice but to message him “gotta go, son woke up, go ahead and kill me” as I set my throttle to zero and went to get my son. I came back about 20 mins later expecting to see a rebuy screen but instead my ship was still there and a GG was on the comms. Very honorable Cmdr. I was not about to combat log.

 

[Morbad]

Which brings us back to the problems that IP manipulation would cause if such a system were in place - which is probably why FDev are content to leave things as they are.

I'm not convinced that being at a loss for a practicably implementable solution is the same as contentment.

 

[Good Death]

If you're getting super salty about a player logging then I'm sorry I can't help but lol at you. If you can't get a sense of achievement out of player quitting then maybe you should join the military or go mow the yard. Your sitting on your but playing a video game how hilarious.

 

[Good Death]

Dear mod you've been duped this is a pvp thread.

 

[Vash627]

I don't know why people have to get so annoyed with combat logging. It happens, find a new target when it does. Just because you've fired your weapons does not entitle you to getting a kill, the universe does not owe you that explosion.

 

[Riverside]

Just sticking my opinion here in case a Dev reads this:

I agree with the OP's basic premise that abuse of the timer is a legitimate source of frustration, however programmes that will not close elegantly when I want them to (requiring a wait then confirmation in this case) is also a source of frustration.

I support the proposal that confirmation be moved to the start with an option to cancel. I would like to add a caveat that the game is no longer rendered, effectively making the game appear to be closing (black screen) except for the option to cancel. Once the timer has completed the game will return to the desktop as usual.

Potentially the option to cancel could remain for only a few seconds, with the game returning to desktop for other use while the game engine continues to host the players ship/assets/instance at minimal resource cost to that computer.

This may be against some console T&Cs, my suggestion is with a windows PC in mind.

For full disclosure I have never waited out the timer, I always return to the game & put my ship in a safe place if it comes up (usually because I'm near a star). I have had genuine emergencies while playing & simply left the game running.

 

[Maro-Val]

It is about 'your way' because the way it is already is FD's way and it's their game.

My way probably happens to be the right thing to do.
And who said otherwise about being their game? Discussions are aiming to exchange opinions and if something turns out to be wrong, devs can change it for the better. If we apply your logic, we should turn off these forums and shut our virtual mouths.

No. Wrong on two counts:

Firstly, merely logging into Open cannot be taken as consent to engage in any specific combat encounter (or indeed any combat encounter): merely some sort of interaction with other players.

Secondly, even if both participants wanted the fight, neither consented to ignore all possible real-world interruptions. Consent can be withdrawn if circumstances change. I wouldn't consent to play ED while my kid was tumbling down the stairs, therefore it's reasonable to assume that my prior consent is cancelled if my kid subsequently tumbles down the stairs.

And if I'm in a battle and my opponent suddenly announces that his kid has taken a tumble down the stairs, I personally wouldn't cry "waah, I wanna blow up your spaceship, you loser!!!".

You are still using your kid as an example by implying the importance of that particular example. Carefull because if i continue the discussion by using your kid (which i have the right because YOU started it), you are not gonna like it. When you are playing with others they dont care whats your reasons of logging. You may as well log from a fight to go outside for a super fart. The reasons are irrelevant.
Which brings us to this: If your kid has taken a tumble down the stairs and you spent time to even press the esc button or task kill the program... then what can i say.

A few weeks ago I was in an intense fight when my son woke up. I had no choice but to message him “gotta go, son woke up, go ahead and kill me” as I set my throttle to zero and went to get my son. I came back about 20 mins later expecting to see a rebuy screen but instead my ship was still there and a GG was on the comms. Very honorable Cmdr. I was not about to combat log.

A simple but very honorable thing to do. A honorable commander that i hope we cross our weapons somewhere out there.

If you're getting super salty about a player logging then I'm sorry I can't help but lol at you. If you can't get a sense of achievement out of player quitting then maybe you should join the military or go mow the yard. Your sitting on your but playing a video game how hilarious.

Lol all you want, but stop getting super salty about others getting super salty.

 

[Taimaru]

Maybe Frontier should implement a ship explosion when someone logs out to the menu during combat so the person shooting them thinks they've killed them and they can feel better about themselves.

 

[Maro-Val]

Maybe Frontier should implement a ship explosion when someone logs out to the menu during combat so the person shooting them thinks they've killed them and they can feel better about themselves.

Why are you saying that? Its not only for the explosion but for the entire package.
So dissapearing from a fight on the other hand, thats what makes you feel better about yourself? Thats sounds "more right"? I m really struggling to understand how some people think about the whole thing.

 

[Taimaru]

Why are you saying that? Its not only for the explosion but for the entire package.
So dissapearing from a fight on the other hand, thats what makes you feel better about yourself? Thats sounds "more right"? I m really struggling to understand how some people think about the whole thing.

It doesn't bother me what someone does especially as I don't actually PvP. However, it seems to bother some people so I am only trying to come up with a solution.

 

[Stigbob]

Why are you saying that? Its not only for the explosion but for the entire package.
So dissapearing from a fight on the other hand, thats what makes you feel better about yourself? Thats sounds "more right"? I m really struggling to understand how some people think about the whole thing.

Maybe the issue is that they just don't think about it at all, its not like logging out of a video game is a big deal.

 

[Aashenfox]

Maybe the issue is that they just don't think about it at all, its not like logging out of a video game is a big deal.

To some it is, to some it isn't. That's why we don't smoke in restaurants any more. One has a negative effect on the other. If you combat log, you are blowing smoke in my face while I eat my 60 sterling fillet. If you are cool with that, go ahead and say it.

 

[Aashenfox]

A few weeks ago I was in an intense fight when my son woke up. I had no choice but to message him “gotta go, son woke up, go ahead and kill me” as I set my throttle to zero and went to get my son. I came back about 20 mins later expecting to see a rebuy screen but instead my ship was still there and a GG was on the comms. Very honorable Cmdr. I was not about to combat log.

This right here is the best way to handle it. Any other way and you are selfishly saying 'I don't care about you, it only matters that I do what I want', which is what is ruining this world. Entitlism. I'm entitled to do this and it doesn't matter who I hurt, because I'm entitled, it's my right. If someone gave me a right to torture puppies, you bet I'd be doing it all day long.

Believe it or not, being a good person is about not always exercising your rights, especially where they butt up against respect for another human being.

 

[Stigbob]

To some it is, to some it isn't. That's why we don't smoke in restaurants any more. One has a negative effect on the other. If you combat log, you are blowing smoke in my face while I eat my 60 sterling fillet. If you are cool with that, go ahead and say it.

I don't clog so any reference I make to logging is the completely OK menu log, you don't have any input at all in when I decide to do that.

 

[Aashenfox]

I don't clog so any reference I make to logging is the completely OK menu log, you don't have any input at all in when I decide to do that.

OK, please substitute the words combat log with menu log, in this context there is no difference whatsoever.

What do you mean I don't have any input? I was fighting you, winning and you menu logged, denying me the kill, satisfaction, and materially, the combat experience and the player kill count. Not to mention doing something which FD have said is frowned upon, but legal.

Since we're talking personally, I should point out that I personally, see your logging as a victory, but just because I don't mind people smoking in a restaurant, doesn't mean it's ok. Are you really ok with being that guy?

 

[Stigbob]

OK, please substitute the words combat log with menu log, in this context there is no difference whatsoever.

Clogging is cheating menu logging is fine, so there's always a difference.

What do you mean I don't have any input? I was fighting you, winning and you menu logged, denying me the kill, satisfaction, and materially, the combat experience and the player kill count. Not to mention doing something which FD have said is frowned upon, but legal.

I'm not bothered by any of that. If we were winged up or dueling or whatever I'd send a quick "real life calling o7". If it was some random encounter I'd probably not bother, maybe a sarcastic "meep meep".

Since we're talking personally, I should point out that I personally, see your logging as a victory, but just because I don't mind people smoking in a restaurant, doesn't mean it's ok. Are you really ok with being that guy?

It would be more realistic to see it as Stigbobs kitchen timer just went ping the phone is ringing or he quite fancies a coffee.

 

[Maro-Val]

It doesn't bother me what someone does especially as I don't actually PvP. However, it seems to bother some people so I am only trying to come up with a solution.

Nice of you, but your solution changes absolutely nothing. The kill must register when someone logs out by task kill and by selecting the menu exit it should be much more minutes than just 15. Since the person that logs doesn't care about the other human player, at least he must pay the price of losing his ship with its cargo if any. And i say "at least" because if done repeatedly, as many people use it reguraly, there should be a penalty of not logging into open for a given time.

Maybe the issue is that they just don't think about it at all, its not like logging out of a video game is a big deal.

I think the discussion is about logging out during an encounter and not just logging out of a video game. The 15 second timer will trigger when there is some danger if dont know it.
And in my opinion they should think about it, because they are educating players to a behavior that should dissapear from the gaming culture and not make it something that we see everyday. For me it is unacceptable for the devs. Its not that we dont have the solutions.
If they implement the right mechanics (which exist even for the p2p architecture), then people with busy door bells will prefer solo from open or if they have slippery stairs, they can play with other humans and accept the loss/punishment for not honoring the engagement, which is the healthy attidude.

This right here is the best way to handle it. Any other way and you are selfishly saying 'I don't care about you, it only matters that I do what I want', which is what is ruining this world. Entitlism. I'm entitled to do this and it doesn't matter who I hurt, because I'm entitled, it's my right. If someone gave me a right to torture puppies, you bet I'd be doing it all day long.

Believe it or not, being a good person is about not always exercising your rights, especially where they butt up against respect for another human being.

This. Agreed 1000%. o7.

 

[Noctover]

The 15 second timer is an insult to PVP. They either need to implement a "fine go on log off, but your ship will stay in space" for 2 minutes system or change the logout timer during combat to 2 minutes.

People always make excuses like "What if i have a SUDDEN EMERGENCY!!!!" its all just confetti to hide the fact people prefer the safety blanket of a legal escape.

 

[Lily from anim.o.v.e]

The 15 second timer is an insult to PVP. They either need to implement a "fine go on log off, but your ship will stay in space" for 2 minutes system or change the logout timer during combat to 2 minutes.

People always make excuses like "What if i have a SUDDEN EMERGENCY!!!!" its all just confetti to hide the fact people prefer the safety blanket of a legal escape.

and what about game crashes and dc's? Imagine the "fun" all those non PvP gamers have when they got any of thos,e return to the agem and see their stuff blown up die to a nice 2 minute timer. As long as a game is an online game, any of those timer stuff just screws either the one or the other set of people.