How long would a ship need to remain persistent to prevent a menu log from being abused?

Morbad

Morbad
At least three minutes:

[video=youtube;1bi05o21NxU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bi05o21NxU[/video]

When someone mistakes dumbfires for seekers and flies in a straight line to outpace them while being shot in the drives with long range lasers, they've screwed up and should have to eject.

There appears to be a widely held misconception that if someone's ship cannot be destroyed in 15 seconds that they are near certain to escape. This is patently false, whether we are talking about combat, or someone getting their ship wedged between the letter box and T-9 while being reckless with traffic.

It took nearly three minutes from the time my thrusters first malfunctioned--they were never going to be usable again as long as a ship that could keep up was in pursuit--and the time my ship finally exploded. A 15 second timer is insufficient to prevent it's use to avoid deserved consequences in a broad variety of both PvP and PvE encounters.
 

Nadreck

N
I think 15 seconds is about right, if it was significantly longer then it would be much easier to quit "illegally" than wait.

The most urgently-needed change is to remove the requirement to confirm after 15 seconds, forcing players to hang around 15 seconds into a domestic emergency just to click "OK" is dumb.
 

Morbad

Morbad
Novo Mundus said:
You're right, however, it wasn't implemented to do that, it was implemented so you could leave the game in a relevant time scale if your dog is chewing on your new slippers.

It wasn't designed as a way to stop combat logging.
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No timer would be needed for, or beneficial to, simply leaving the game. Were ED on a client-server network model, there would be no timer, because there wouldn't be any need for one...a CMDR's vessel could be fined, scanned, or destroyed even if they weren't connected.

The timer's only purpose is to leave opportunity for consequences to happen rather than allowing people to quit the game to avoid them.

Way back when, 15 seconds was considered a good compromise between needing to wait to leave the game and keeping people from leaving the game to avoid gameplay consequences.


Nadreck said:
I think 15 seconds is about right, if it was significantly longer then it would be much easier to quit "illegally" than wait.
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It always has been.

Nadreck said:
The most urgently-needed change is to remove the requirement to confirm after 15 seconds, forcing players to hang around 15 seconds into a domestic emergency just to click "OK" is dumb.
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I agree. Confirmation should be at the beginning, with an option to cancel, irrespective of how long the timer is.
 

Crimson Kaim

Crimson Kaim
As long as combat logging is a thing this discussion will be irrelevant. It could be 15 seconds, 1 minute even a refreshable timer or 1 hour. People combat log for whatever reason. Let it be lack of honor, a ringing doorbell, a simple DC/crash or a fire in the kitchen. Some might be acceptable and some may not. Regardless, 5% ship value is nothing if you grinded your way to the full 100% once. A combat logging fix is long overdue so any discussion regarding that topic is totally pointless and a waste of time. Enough has been said and analyzed and discussed. The time for action is ... was 3 years ago.
 
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Stealthie

Stealthie
Stigbob said:
The only fix needed for menu logging is moving the confirmation to the start not the end. Its just a video game its OK to log out.
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If the menu-log took, say, 3 minutes, I'd want dropping back into the cockpit for the duration of that countdown.
I try to be fair about this stuff but I'm not gonna give somebody three minutes to shoot at my ship unless I can do something about it.

Which is all academic, really, cos I simply wouldn't ever sit around, machine-minding, for the countdown to complete.

I've got ~7,000 hours in this game.
Let's say my average play-session is 3 hours.
That's 2330 play-sessions.
With a 3 minute timer before I can quit (even assuming I only ever quit to the main menu once, at the end of a session), that's 7000 minutes waiting to quit the game - 116 hours, or nearly 5 days... of waiting to quit a game.

Two words. 2nd word is "off".
 

Stigbob

Stigbob
Stealthie said:
If the menu-log took, say, 3 minutes, I'd want dropping back into the cockpit for the duration of that countdown.
I try to be fair about this stuff but I'm not gonna give somebody three minutes to shoot at my ship unless I can do something about it.

Which is all academic, really, cos I simply wouldn't ever sit around, machine-minding, for the countdown to complete.

I've got ~7,000 hours in this game.
Let's say my average play-session is 3 hours.
That's 2330 play-sessions.
With a 3 minute timer before I can quit (even assuming I only ever quit to the main menu once, at the end of a session), that's 7000 minutes waiting to quit the game - 116 hours, or nearly 5 days... of waiting to quit a game.

Two words. 2nd word is "off".
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They'd never set it at three minutes anyway.
 

znôrt

znôrt
Novo Mundus said:
You're right, however, it wasn't implemented to do that, it was implemented so you could leave the game in a relevant time scale if your dog is chewing on your new slippers.

It wasn't designed as a way to stop combat logging.
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no. i agree this never was a real solution for combat logging, just an attempt at handwaving the issue away, but it came definitely in response to criticism to combat logging.

it was an attempt to content everybody: loggers with a 'legal' way of doing the exactly the same thing, and frustrated attackers with more chances to get their kills.

it was further muddied by stating 'the other' combat logging was against the rules, but then wiping their aspes with those same rules.

however:
1. hit point inflation has made the timer long obsolete.
2. it was never a solution to the real problem, which isn't to satisfy two particular groups of whiners, but the fact of a broken virtual world simulation
 

[VR] DDM_Reaper20

[VR] DDM_Reaper20
I'd like it if pressing the button initiated the log-out after fifteen seconds, without me having to wait and twiddle my thumbs to confirm.

Let's face it, sometimes, especially when you've got kids, you CANNOT wait fifteen seconds, not, for example, when one certain person is trying to find out just how far he can twist his sister's arm. Ahem. Not looking at any member of my family, obviously (Pinocchio-mode engaged).
 

StiTch

StiTch
Novo Mundus said:
You're right, however, it wasn't implemented to do that, it was implemented so you could leave the game in a relevant time scale if your dog is chewing on your new slippers.

It wasn't designed as a way to stop combat logging.
Click to expand...

Nice try at hiding the cause under the carpet.

Only that's...exactly what it is meant to do.

If saving the dog from chewing your slippers were all they were concerned about, there would be no need for a timer.

However, FDev themselves are interested in CMDRs not using the menu log as an insta-escape from combat when they're losing. That's why we have the 15 secs. Saving the dog from chewing your slippers is why you are allowed to escape from combat at all.

Morbad - I've mentioned this issue a few times, for one simple fact: the timer is poor for both preventing menu logging as an escape tool AND using it to save RL situations; fifteen seconds is not enough to deter its use as an escape mechanism, especially in a world with engineered shields and thrusters. However, it is also poor for them RL situations as you're required to wait for the timer to finish to log out.

My proposal since...basically joining this forum, was to increase the timer to approx. a minute, and when the timer runs out your are insta-logged out. Now, you are waiting 0 seconds to chase your dog around the house to regain control of your slippers (and dignity) instead of fifteen seconds, but you can't use it to escape someone that's interdicted you before they have looked in your direction and deployed hardpoints.
 

Asp Explorer

Asp Explorer
So how would that solve the actual problem?

You can log out instantly simply by logging into your own account on another machine, because FD only allow one account sign-on at a time. There's no timer mechanic on this world that's going to solve that.
 

znôrt

znôrt
Asp Explorer said:
So how would that solve the actual problem?
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naval action: you may exit the open world at any time, but there's a 2 minute timer which logs you out automatically. go attend your dog without worries. if you kill the process before that ... no worry, the game knows where you are.

so the architecture doesn't allow that? i'm not surprised. it's a crap, unfitting architecture. fix it.

but we've been both there already several times, right? [big grin]
 

Stealthie

Stealthie
znôrt said:
it was never a solution to the real problem, which isn't to satisfy two particular groups of whiners, but the fact of a broken virtual world simulation
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The real problem is that FDev (hopefully) realise that they can't implement any punitive measures for "ungracefully" leaving the game without risking "weaponising" manipulation of IP protocols.

I was reading about the problems with Fallout 76 the other day and it took me, literally, 10 minutes to find out how to remotely disconnect another player from a game like ED using a specific bit of software that I probably shouldn't name.
 
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