How many CMDRs really cheat in PVP?

[CMDR 1936]

[THAT PARTICULAR SOURCE] literally got banned for being a clown, I would advise taking anything from that guy with an immense grain of salt.

As for range control, it's a skill that takes some time to master. A lot of it involves turning super early, and timing your boosts, to catch your opponent in a stall. It can be very difficult to break range against someone super aggressive, especially if you're just spamming boost. I've never been very good at explaining things like this, but I'm sure someone else can if you ask around enough.

Of all things I would expect someone to cheat at, I'm afraid competent piloting isn't something you could hack.

Edit: I’d like to shoot at you one of these days, if I’m ever on again. As I said, I’m far from the best, but I’m no pushover. Kinda wanna see where you’re at, especially as someone who still struggles with range control from time to time myself.

I’ve got an exact copy of my ships from the Xbox transfer, no cheats, or mods, voice attack, or even custom HUD colors. I’d be happy to set something up.

That particular source shows recorded conversations. It is not inferred, it is blatant. Regarding range control and stuff, other players (who are programmers themselves) did calculate what is possible given the game constraints with a tool-assisted AI (these TAS are very commun in speedruns and no-damages runs to assess what is or isn't possible in a game) so these results are something that no human can accomplish, because it is based on what the physical model of the game enables you to do as an absolute maximum: basically, if you were a perfect player you could reach that and no more because it is a mathematical limit given the physical constraints implemented in the game. Yet these guys are even better than the theoretical model, because they suppress all the inertia their ship has... So if you can explain to me how they do it, I would be interested.

Now, there is NO QUESTION that there are great pilots: some of them do combat exclusively since the first day the game was launched: their level is therefore truly amazing. I can think of names of amazing pilots that I'm 99.9% sure never cheat and never will. But competition causes perversion: if they do organic in Shinrartha, of course they won't hack. But in a Tournament against other top players, every marginal gain you can have changes things, so here, like in any high-level competition, there is a temptation to get that little extra boost. And let's get real: anybody can find a hacking software on the internet in 2 minutes. Is every player capable of resisting that temptation? I would love to believe it, but experience proves that it is not the case. Could Elite be the ONLY game where no player ever cheat? C'mon...

Now Tournament aside, to take an example I've seen recently, some Ganker squad posted videos where you see them against SPEAR 3 v 10, beating the sh... out of the 10 and that basically without even losing a ring of their shields. And then they boast: "skill issue"! I mean, I'm no SPEAR, but I know they have some really good pilots: who can believe there can be such a skill gap among experienced fighters? No one.

Your condescendant reaction (basically "git gud") reminds me of that guy who told me roughly the same thing a few months ago and is now perm banned for hacking, but it also reminds me of what i've seen in the past in the real world or in speedrun: people like to believe there are people with super-human abilities, it suits us to believe Superheroes exist like in the Marvel movies... Sadly they don't. To take a very famous example, Lance Armstrong was defended for years by cohorts of fans explaining with statistical evidences and "marginal gains" and "biomecanical revolution" how he was simply the best. We all know how it ended up.

Haven't watched the video. But, did they use the hack to alter the ship stats? Does the tournament result still stand? Do the pilots beaten consider they were beaten fairly? How serious was the tournament? Was there a cash prize? For what reason are people who happen to have flown with the cheat users considered guilty?

No 'cause you can't prove anything. Only Frontier could check the code. And that is worse: if nobody cheated, great, I would be the first to be happy, to admire them, and to apologize personally to all of them for suspecting them! But there is a doubt, and facts, that is the issue. Like Northpin said, Frontier dosen't take it seriously: it can't fall on players to identify cheating: it is counterproductive and innefficient.

 

[Za1zeR]

I PvP, I don't hack, I blow up, I have fun. Shame on you hackers. SHAME.

 

[JR250]

As I understand it, the artist formerly known as [THAT PARTICULAR SOURCE] was banned for tracing IP addresses to the general region or country of source. They were trying to prove the source address was cheating by using network techniques. That was not their to-do, obviously, and they took it beyond the TOS. The ends were seemingly good, the means were bad.

Back on subject, one cheater is too many but there are quite a few out there. I'm not an expert on the topic or a reliable source but I've observed that while not all gankers might be cheaters, all cheaters are also gankers. They can't help themselves. Ganking is a gateway drug that starts by not respecting others in game. I've seen people argue for days on forums on how ganking is cool, if you go on open you're consenting to ganking, etc. Several of those same guys arguing were caught up in this recent cheat. Funny how that happens.

If I may politely ask, can we please not discuss cheat names or how they work? Ganker and cheater minds are weak enough to be tempted by that and go search on how to do it.

 

[Yamato2012]

That particular source shows recorded conversations. It is not inferred, it is blatant. Regarding range control and stuff, other players (who are programmers themselves) did calculate what is possible given the game constraints with a tool-assisted AI (these TAS are very commun in speedruns and no-damages runs to assess what is or isn't possible in a game) so these results are something that no human can accomplish, because it is based on what the physical model of the game enables you to do as an absolute maximum: basically, if you were a perfect player you could reach that and no more because it is a mathematical limit given the physical constraints implemented in the game. Yet these guys are even better than the theoretical model, because they suppress all the inertia their ship has... So if you can explain to me how they do it, I would be interested.

Now, there is NO QUESTION that there are great pilots: some of them do combat exclusively since the first day the game was launched: their level is therefore truly amazing. I can think of names of amazing pilots that I'm 99.9% sure never cheat and never will. But competition causes perversion: if they do organic in Shinrartha, of course they won't hack. But in a Tournament against other top players, every marginal gain you can have changes things, so here, like in any high-level competition, there is a temptation to get that little extra boost. And let's get real: anybody can find a hacking software on the internet in 2 minutes. Is every player capable of resisting that temptation? I would love to believe it, but experience proves that it is not the case. Could Elite be the ONLY game where no player ever cheat? C'mon...

Now Tournament aside, to take an example I've seen recently, some Ganker squad posted videos where you see them against SPEAR 3 v 10, beating the sh... out of the 10 and that basically without even losing a ring of their shields. And then they boast: "skill issue"! I mean, I'm no SPEAR, but I know they have some really good pilots: who can believe there can be such a skill gap among experienced fighters? No one.

Your condescendant reaction (basically "git gud") reminds me of that guy who told me roughly the same thing a few months ago and is now perm banned for hacking, but it also reminds me of what i've seen in the past in the real world or in speedrun: people like to believe there are people with super-human abilities, it suits us to believe Superheroes exist like in the Marvel movies... Sadly they don't. To take a very famous example, Lance Armstrong was defended for years by cohorts of fans explaining with statistical evidences and "marginal gains" and "biomecanical revolution" how he was simply the best. We all know how it ended up.


No 'cause you can't prove anything. Only Frontier could check the code. And that is worse: if nobody cheated, great, I would be the first to be happy, to admire them, and to apologize personally to all of them for suspecting them! But there is a doubt, and facts, that is the issue. Like Northpin said, Frontier dosen't take it seriously: it can't fall on players to identify cheating: it is counterproductive and innefficient.

First of all, lot of people here who say they pvp yet have never been seen in open. I can only vouch for cknarf and morbad who have. And second your source, spear network are lying to you. They are incapable of improving at the game and their TAS is also complete nonsense. I have offered to show them that the range control they say is impossible, is possible, under conditions they monitor to ensure I am not cheating however they refuse the offer, such a clear and perfect opportunity to see if they are correct or not. Why would anyone refuse such a golden opportunity to demonstrate whether their years long claim about the flight model and cheating in pvp is true? Because they secretly know its a lie. Certainty about cheating in pvp would crack the illusion that groups that are lower skill need to exist, the spear network needs this lie to justify to themselves their constant and consistent losing in equal and even superior number fights for the last 7 years. So just remember that this offer to demonstrate what they call impossible has been open, has been refused and is still open but they will not take it and know for certain proving them correct or incorrect. The truth is not important to a decent part of the community, the part that consistently loses, what is more important is keeping alive a get out of jail card for why they still suck after thousands and thousands of hours of playing.

 

[Martin1970]

First of all, lot of people here who say they pvp yet have never been seen in open. I can only vouch for cknarf and morbad who have. And second your source, spear network are lying to you. They are incapable of improving at the game and their TAS is also complete nonsense. I have offered to show them that the range control they say is impossible, is possible, under conditions they monitor to ensure I am not cheating however they refuse the offer, such a clear and perfect opportunity to see if they are correct or not. Why would anyone refuse such a golden opportunity to demonstrate whether their years long claim about the flight model and cheating in pvp is true? Because they secretly know its a lie. Certainty about cheating in pvp would crack the illusion that groups that are lower skill need to exist, the spear network needs this lie to justify to themselves their constant and consistent losing in equal and even superior number fights for the last 7 years. So just remember that this offer to demonstrate what they call impossible has been open, has been refused and is still open but they will not take it and know for certain proving them correct or incorrect. The truth is not important to a decent part of the community, the part that consistently loses, what is more important is keeping alive a get out of jail card for why they still suck after thousands and thousands of hours of playing.

You knowingly fought a player in a tournament who had cheated his way into an FDL, while "almost" everyone else had to work hard to get theirs with engineer unlocks, powerplay modules, materials and credits.

 

[Yamato2012]

You knowingly fought a player in a tournament who had cheated his way into an FDL, while "almost" everyone else had to work hard to get theirs with engineer unlocks, powerplay modules, materials and credits.

That's right, that's why we checked their modules to make sure they weren't cheating, because I didn't want to play against cheats either lol, in a tournament final.

 

[Martin1970]

That's right, that's why we checked their modules to make sure they weren't cheating, because I didn't want to play against cheats either lol, in a tournament final.

They did cheat. They cheated to get an FDL. Why are you OK with that?

 

[Yamato2012]

They did cheat. They cheated to get an FDL. Why are you OK with that?

This thread is about cheating in pvp, what goes on outside of pvp, I'm sure is much larger and impossible to investigate, but not the point of this thread. This thread is about people who cheat to get an advantage in pvp.

 

[Deio]

They did cheat in organic too. Not only in tournaments. And speaking of tournaments, since most of them cheat there (in that particular group), they did cheat check with screen share
Talk about suspecting one another, they are hilarious. Then they started to fight in social networks and insult one another and insult anyone that interferes.
As I told, they did cheat subtle at first, minor "adjustments". Like that meme "copy so it can't be told the difference". Minor stats increase, minor speed increase and inertia gain.
They still could not beat the lawfuls because the lawfuls always come in high number and are more organized and more disciplined.
And seems a deceiver and a cheater did hopped here to "turn" the tides and somewhat divert. He knows who he is
Ain't working like this, mate. Ain't.
They cheat. Blatanly. In PvP, in solo, wherever they can. They are less now because yes, consequences do exist.

 

[CMDR Cknarf]

Your condescendant reaction (basically "git gud") reminds me of that guy who told me roughly the same thing a few months ago and is now perm banned for hacking, but it also reminds me of what i've seen in the past in the real world or in speedrun: people like to believe there are people with super-human abilities, it suits us to believe Superheroes exist like in the Marvel movies... Sadly they don't. To take a very famous example, Lance Armstrong was defended for years by cohorts of fans explaining with statistical evidences and "marginal gains" and "biomecanical revolution" how he was simply the best. We all know how it ended up.


No 'cause you can't prove anything. Only Frontier could check the code. And that is worse: if nobody cheated, great, I would be the first to be happy, to admire them, and to apologize personally to all of them for suspecting them! But there is a doubt, and facts, that is the issue. Like Northpin said, Frontier dosen't take it seriously: it can't fall on players to identify cheating: it is counterproductive and innefficient.

It’s hardly condescending if it’s the truth, man. Again, as a predominantly Xbox player, a platform with ZERO instances of actual hacks, there are people who are simply that good at the game, I swear to you. It’s just that many don’t have the same level of interaction with the most dedicated PvP people as some of us do— it’s quite the shock to the uninitiated. I can say for sure There were few of that level on Xbox, but they certainly existed. And I don’t mean to say ‘git gud’, but you are severely underestimating what it takes to fly against top-level guys, and exactly how much work they put into flying the way they do.

Many of the very best Xbox guys have moved on to PC, as Xbox has no future, and some are even competitive in the PC environment.

There’s no way I can prove I’m not cheating, unless you somehow have access to an Xbox, but from your attitude towards PvP, and apparent ‘If I lose, they have to be cheating’ postion, I don’t know if it would do any good anyway.

I’m not trying to be rude, I’m really not. But as someone who’s been involved in PvP for 5+ years, it honestly sounds to be that you need to practice more, plain and simple. I’ve been telling people for YEARS on this forum that there’s more to PvP than having a good ship, yet they keep finding some reason to avoid the truth.

You should worry less about cheaters, and more about taking on anyone and everyone until you’re up to snuff.

 

[Martin1970]

This thread is about cheating in pvp, what goes on outside of pvp, I'm sure is much larger and impossible to investigate, but not the point of this thread. This thread is about people who cheat to get an advantage in pvp.

Player using the cheat to go from a starting sidewinder to a fully pvp FDL in under 10 minutes is literally "people who cheat to get an advantage in pvp".

 

[Yamato2012]

Player using the cheat to go from a starting sidewinder to a fully pvp FDL in under 10 minutes is literally "people who cheat to get an advantage in pvp".

No its not, cheating to get an advantage in pvp is when you increase your ingame stats beyond what is possible in game, shields damage cooling whatever. That is what people are referring to when talking about cheating in pvp. Getting an FDL in 10 minutes is 100% cheating, but not what people are referring to when they say cheating in pvp.

 

[TEBORI]

first of all respect to @CMDR 1936 for starting this thread
the part of the "what is possible given the game constraints with a tool-assisted AI" was very interesting as well.

 

[Yamato2012]

first of all respect to @CMDR 1936 for starting this thread
the part of the "what is possible given the game constraints with a tool-assisted AI" was very interesting as well.

My offer to show you that this range control under conditions that YOU set is still open by the way . Something that would conclusively prove you correct, yet you still won't take this offer up.

 

[TEBORI]

@Yamato2012
You offered to show me the base game, which I interpreted at best as trolling in response to my inquiry about what exactly you wanted to show me.

Furthermore, we are neither interested nor in need of any information from someone who does not object to players creating ships with a hack system, that is truly audacious, for a tournament. I use the term "we" because we are a working group that includes individuals beyond just Spear, and we already have all the necessary information.

There are no remaining questions. If anyone still believes that it is possible, for example, for someone to turn faster than what is possible with any ship in the game or to move ships in a way that is not consistent with the normal flight physics of the game, then that person must continue to hold that belief.

For everyone else, a new PvP community is currently emerging, where all members reject any form of cheating in the game or supporting cheaters.
If anyone is interested in joining this community, there are numerous contacts within and outside of Spear.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Closed - as the discussion has moved to the participants and not the topic.