How stupid can one be?

Well, I was looking for a book in my collection, and it was nowhere to be found, of course it was my wife's fault, and after I corrected her, I found myself crafting a wood figure in our garden shed.....

As I knew I was going to be there for a little while, at least until someone need to take the garbage out, I checked an old chest I've placed in the corner.
AND BEHOLD! there it was my book...


Fractal Cities

Are you still here? good, so let me continue.

What will the cities be in ED, how will they make them, what kind of ideas do FD have when they actually make these places, and how can they make them fast without using 6000 man hours to design them.

"Fractal Cities is the pioneering study of the development and use of fractal geometry for understanding and planning the physical form of cities, showing how this geometry enables cities to be simulated through computer graphics. The book explains how the structure of cities evolve in ways which at first sight may appear irregular, but when understood in terms of fractals reveal a complex and diverse underlying order."

It's a great book, I highly recommend it. When you design a large urban area, you need to make it look realistic, you need to make it interresting and believable. How can you do all that?




Well by using Math! ...Oh hold on, hold on.... wait for it ..... wait for it. It's not the same as the other threads I promise.

let no one enter who does not know geometry

We need to split the cities into 3 phases, decorativ, semi interactive, full interactive.

The Decorative part of the city would be visible from a distance, however you can't get close to the city itself. This can be controlled with no fly zones or you need to keep a certain height. The example below was made by using algorithm use in mandelbrot patterns or 3d models


Parts of the city need to be semi interactive, areas where you can land, but not explore. These part would most likely be landing pads that will take you to connecting transports, like tube trains or similar, into the full interactive part of a city.



"Therefore our approach to urban form will be through tracing the 'invisible
structure' of relations which underlie the external form or outward
appearance of cities, using ideas involving hierarchies and networks and
searching for functions which are consistent with the shape of cities and
their evolution. We can sketch out such a structure from the top down,
illustrating how urban space can be seen as both a hierarchy and a network
which in fact represent different sides of the same coin"



Using the math to add variation is key to get variety in your cities.

Making different "house" models and then use ProGen to generate it, would be one way of doing it, however if you truly want to create something that is astonishing you would need to release the power of fractals in your models.

Nature is rich in fractal design, just look closer, no closer....


wish ya all a G'day

Edit:

Read more here:
http://sub.blue/aurullia

http://sub.blue/fractal-lab
 
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This is an interesting post... and some intriguing images!

I'm willing to bet DB and his team of number-crunchers are familiar with this technique, but it's all new to me! Sadly, the title of your thread will probably mean that loads of people who wouldbeinterested (and able to participate) probably won't!
 
Is this an advert for some book? Forums T&C don't allow adverts.

Book sales never accounts for how many are actually read. Just ask Stephen Hawking.

Millennials don't read books. They just 'know'.
 
It depends what you're looking for (and OP get a mod to re-title your thread lol). If all you want is eye candy then PG generated cities are fine I suppose but what about if you want more?

Once you start down the "more" route, you have to realize the work becomes harder in order of magnitudes. Is ED going to make cities you can just see or are they going to make ones you can interact with. This is the big problem with all space games. If it's no believeable, don't even bother?

I suppose we'd need something like GTA 5 level of complexity and FD have already made a game like this it just never got published so they might be able to pull it off.

However, the next part is adding in gameplay. What do you put in your cities to make them worth visiting in the first place.

So before you look at how you make them, you need to know what you're going to put in them or you cater for a crowd that only cares about it being there to look at but not use.
 
It depends what you're looking for (and OP get a mod to re-title your thread lol). If all you want is eye candy then PG generated cities are fine I suppose but what about if you want more?

Once you start down the "more" route, you have to realize the work becomes harder in order of magnitudes. Is ED going to make cities you can just see or are they going to make ones you can interact with. This is the big problem with all space games. If it's no believeable, don't even bother?

I suppose we'd need something like GTA 5 level of complexity and FD have already made a game like this it just never got published so they might be able to pull it off.

However, the next part is adding in gameplay. What do you put in your cities to make them worth visiting in the first place.

So before you look at how you make them, you need to know what you're going to put in them or you cater for a crowd that only cares about it being there to look at but not use.
Well, the title is actually correct, maybe add cities in ED :D

The issues here is that you need to make something that will generate large areas of interesting looking cities, and how will you do that? No it's not an advert for a book, the book is just
a tool to get some ideas.

ED need to create large cities, however they can't make all of it intractable, they also need to make cities that look interresting and different almost alien, and how can you do that.
My point is use of fractals to create large areas, then split it into sections. Some of it can be fully interactable, other areas are only decorative filler. You can then over time make more of it interactive as time goes by.
 
Great read! +1

Is this an advert for some book? Forums T&C don't allow adverts.

Book sales never accounts for how many are actually read. Just ask Stephen Hawking.

Millennials don't read books. They just 'know'.
This is a bad post and you should feel bad.
 
The game that never was.

The game that never was.

[video=youtube;yI5YOFR1Wus]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI5YOFR1Wus[/video]



Frontier already have city tech.

[video=youtube;Glr71X-cr84]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Glr71X-cr84[/video]

so was this film sanctioned?

[video]http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2198241/?ref_=fn_al_tt_2[/video]
 
I'm definitely excited about landing in cities, if they do eventually get round to it. Obviously, we need atmo landings first!

Landing in different types of cities would be great:

Alliance/Fed/Slaver high tech boom / capital worlds would be awesome if they looked like Corellia or the central planets like Ariel from Firefly - big shiny skyscrapers, local traffic, human docking contacts and landing pads with nice shiny superstructures in a nicely laid out "airport".

For industrial / mining worlds, landing in something that looked like LA 2019 from Blade Runner would be amazing - lots of pipes, gas flares and exposed girders. Pads would be grimy, practical and full of boxes. Robot voice contacts.

Low-tech, poor terraforming worlds might be like descending into Mos Eisley from Star Wars or Eavesdown Docks on Persephone from Firefly - basically pads hewn out of the local rock and very scruffy. Heavily accented, colloquial slang voice contacts.

And when (if?) we get legs, exploring all these options will be a dream come true. I want all of this so hard!
 
The game that never was.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI5YOFR1Wus



Frontier already have city tech.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Glr71X-cr84

so was this film sanctioned?

[video]http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2198241/?ref_=fn_al_tt_2[/url]
Yes they do, however this is all handcrafted and ED will be a huge challenge to fill with different types of cities.
Only by adding different mathematical equations or variables they will be able to accomplish this in due time.
 
ED need to create large cities, however they can't make all of it intractable, they also need to make cities that look interresting and different almost alien.
A few "standard landing pad" layouts, which the fractal generator could bolt onto the outskirts of cities would probably solve the problem. It works pretty well for outposts in the current game, it just needs scaling up: There's no reason why starports shouldn't be fairly standard in design/layout just with a few local quirks and different views of the surrounding city.

The need to make some areas "interactive", and some not, probably isn't absolutely necessary: The city, with it's buildings and structures, is largely inaccessible to your ship anyway - much like planetside bases are now - you only really need somewhere to 'park up' when you land. Trying to land anywhere else is a traffic violation, like in a station, and if you don't get the heck back on a 'legal' trajectory, someone will blow you up (skimmers or city-wide defence grid?).
 
Well, the title is actually correct, maybe add cities in ED :D

The issues here is that you need to make something that will generate large areas of interesting looking cities, and how will you do that? No it's not an advert for a book, the book is just
a tool to get some ideas.

ED need to create large cities, however they can't make all of it intractable, they also need to make cities that look interresting and different almost alien, and how can you do that.
My point is use of fractals to create large areas, then split it into sections. Some of it can be fully interactable, other areas are only decorative filler. You can then over time make more of it interactive as time goes by.
Yes I get your point but what I'm saying is that unless you have something to do in those cities, something worth going there for then don't bother. Whilst you might love architecture and seeing what a PG generation can make, most people don't. They want a game to play not a museum to look around.

This is why you have to work out what you're going to do with them first, what's going to go in them or how are you going to PG around the game design? Once you have the game design you then work out the way of making the cities to fit in with that design and find the most effective way of doing that. If that's using fractals then great.

At the end of the day, players just want to see good looking stuff after all. One thing with PG is that your stuff can look samey. Employing artists with different styles can get around that as styles can wildly vary between artists "Hi this is cow in wee world" LOL).

Making them intereactive after you build them is a bad idea. Game design needs to be front with graphical design behind it and conforming to the game play you're creating I think. This way once you know your design, you can start off basic but build in things to allow for the rest of your design to fit in.

- - - Updated - - -

I would expect a lot of cities would be domed. Especially on planets that need to have been terreformed. We shall see.
It certainly gives your imagination a good work over as you think of the possibilities. Cities in different styles but also ruins and settlements on breathable worlds and none breathable worlds too. The biggest issue with a galaxy is filling it with stuff that doesn't look the same everywhere.
 
Yes I get your point but what I'm saying is that unless you have something to do in those cities, something worth going there for then don't bother. Whilst you might love architecture and seeing what a PG generation can make, most people don't. They want a game to play not a museum to look around.

This is why you have to work out what you're going to do with them first, what's going to go in them or how are you going to PG around the game design? Once you have the game design you then work out the way of making the cities to fit in with that design and find the most effective way of doing that. If that's using fractals then great.
I had to pause here as Frontier seems to take a "Build it and they will come.. if they want to." kind of philosophy with their mechanics/features.

I get what you're saying, I do, I'm just saying that I wouldn't be surprised to see fully fleshed out cities that are virtually content empty hit the game before anything else. Hell, it would be one hell of a pleasant surprise to actually get living cities in a single update rather than the step-by-step type of implementation we seem to have been going through over the last 2+ years.
 
The level of detail that is possible with fractals is both truly amazing, and often underestimated.

The following image is entirely a fractal, generated within fractal software. Yet the form of the image is instantly recognisable:




There's some extremely fine control that can be put over fractal generation - and when you start looking at Mandelbulb algorithms and added a third dimension to them, then you will be able to very quickly create entire worlds. Surreal worlds for sure, but worlds none the less.


[video=youtube;liQydzU4sus]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liQydzU4sus[/video]


The technology certainly exists to make fantastic looking cities with fractals. It's an approach I would like see Frontier use, as it would allow for infinite variation - and this would be great for alien cities. Do keep in mind after all, that we aren't just talking about human cities in Elite's future.

Jex raises a good point about making the cities functional from a gameplay point of view. I'd imagine a balance needs to be created here. However, Elite probably doesn't need full on GTA interaction for cities, and that opens up room to go a little crazy with scale and design.
 
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Nice pictures, CMDR.

Guess FD have started on the cities already, they are just being really realistic about their goal, and call them ruins. They're interactive but I'm really puzzled as to why FD have chosen to place some ruins under the ground. They must have a good reason.
 
Yes I get your point but what I'm saying is that unless you have something to do in those cities, something worth going there for then don't bother. Whilst you might love architecture and seeing what a PG generation can make, most people don't. They want a game to play not a museum to look around.

This is why you have to work out what you're going to do with them first, what's going to go in them or how are you going to PG around the game design? Once you have the game design you then work out the way of making the cities to fit in with that design and find the most effective way of doing that. If that's using fractals then great.

At the end of the day, players just want to see good looking stuff after all. One thing with PG is that your stuff can look samey. Employing artists with different styles can get around that as styles can wildly vary between artists "Hi this is cow in wee world" LOL).

Making them intereactive after you build them is a bad idea. Game design needs to be front with graphical design behind it and conforming to the game play you're creating I think. This way once you know your design, you can start off basic but build in things to allow for the rest of your design to fit in.

- - - Updated - - -



It certainly gives your imagination a good work over as you think of the possibilities. Cities in different styles but also ruins and settlements on breathable worlds and none breathable worlds too. The biggest issue with a galaxy is filling it with stuff that doesn't look the same everywhere.
I hear you, and basically I agree.

What can be done to make it interresting? landing pads, get out of your ship and take a tube train to an area where you can A) get special missions not available on the BBS. Visit shady Tavern or just hang out at the local ship dealer to see then from the inside maybe even test drive one (virtually of course).

Walk around the docking bay, look at the activity, maybe sneak onboard a ship, place a tracker in some cargo crates the only sky is the limit.

Stores where you can buy pants, jackets, suits for in game credits or get to a special store where you can get tailor made "stuff" for real money.

- - - Updated - - -

The level of detail that is possible with fractals is both truly amazing, and often underestimated.

The following image is entirely a fractal, generated within fractal software. Yet the form of the image is instantly recognisable:

http://pre05.deviantart.net/19c6/th/pre/i/2012/129/e/3/un_soffio_caldo_by_lindelokse-d4nruj4.png


There's some extremely fine control that can be put over fractal generation - and when you start looking at Mandelbulb algorithms and added a third dimension to them, then you will be able to very quickly create entire worlds. Surreal worlds for sure, but worlds none the less.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liQydzU4sus


The technology certainly exists to make fantastic looking cities with fractals. It's an approach I would like see Frontier use, as it would allow for infinite variation - and this would be great for alien cities. Do keep in mind after all, that we aren't just talking about human cities in Elite's future.

Jex raises a good point about making the cities functional from a gameplay point of view. I'd imagine a balance needs to be created here. However, Elite probably doesn't need full on GTA interaction for cities, and that opens up room to go a little crazy with scale and design.
drooling, yes that would be my dream world for sure.
 
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