HTC Vive resolution and focus

[Sigon]

Thanks for the reply.

I took a quick peak this morning, and there's actually another process that runs while Steam VR is open that isn't there when you run Elite without it. I'll do some testing when I get home from work. I'll definitely try out the asteroid mining to see what happens.

So far, I'm not having the issues other people are describing, except during that that one test with Steam VR. Elite looks just as good as other VR games IMO, and I'd like to find out why if I can.

I'm not quite sure how you get the Vive running without starting Steam VR. If I start without running Steam VR, the lighthouses stay off and the HMD just shows a grey screen.

What steps do you take to get it running? Direct mode off?

Actually, just figured it out. Disabled turning lighthouse off when Steam VR stops and when lighthouses remain active, the HMD displays an image instead of the grey screen. Will check for performance differences.

 

[Toumal]

Guys, two things:

1) It doesn't matter whether you run SteamVR prior to starting the game or not.

2) I do think Elite currently renders a lower resolution on the vive display AND has terrible aliasing artifacts.

Yes, I know the devs stated that they send the same image to the Vive. And I don't say they're not telling the truth or anything. The output on the vive does look lower resolution than what the hardware can support. In the cqc menu when looking about 90 degrees to the right there's a billboard with the top light bar being just about 1 game pixel in size, and you can clearly see that it is almost 2 vive pixels wide. When it aliases, the stepping also clearly jumps more than one vive pixel. And when you quit the game and compare that with the floor lines in the SteamVR default scene, the difference becomes painfully obvious.

I don't have a CV1 to compare it to, but frankly at this point I'd suspect that the image sent to BOTH headsets is actually worse than it should be, just the DK1 deals with it better. That's a wild guess on my part and I may well be wrong on that. The pixel size however is pretty obvious imho.

For comparison, here's a closeup of a 1px line in the game being cut apart like before, compared to a regular pc screenshot of Elite Dangerous viewed inside the vive. You'll notice that this is MUCH better, and indeed, you can check out various elite-themed backgrounds for your default vr room and they look absolutely amazing.

TLDR: It's not the Vive. It's the game.

 

[bitstorm]

2) Elite currently renders a lower resolution on the vive display.

Yes, I know the devs stated that they send the same image to the Vive. And I don't say they're not telling the truth or anything. But the fact is, the output on the vive is a lower resolution than what the hardware can support. You can easily verify that by watching any of the floor lines in a hangar, for example in the cqc menu when looking about 90 degrees to the right. There's a floor line that is just about 1 game pixel in size, and you can clearly see that it is almost 2 vive pixels wide. When it aliases, the stepping clearly jumps more than one vive pixel. And when you quit the game and compare that with the floor lines in the SteamVR default scene, the difference becomes painfully obvious.

I don't have a CV1 to compare it to, but frankly at this point I'd suspect that the image sent to BOTH headsets is actually worse than it should be, just the DK1 deals with it better. That's a wild guess on my part and I may well be wrong on that. The pixel size however is a fact and anyone comparing a 1px line in Elite with a 1px line in the default scene can verify this.

Isn't it the case that the headsets NEVER render at their desired resolution.

They render higher, 1.4x is recommended by Valve. That is mapped into a spherical-ish shape for the headset. This mapping I think is done in the drivers so there is your difference between Oculus and Vive?

I believe Frontier have said they are using 1.4x, you can go higher at cost of gpu for more detail, or go lower if your game doesn't need it.

edit: whoah images just appeared!

 

[Toumal]

I edited my post, and dialed down some of my language in the process.

But I stand by my assertion. I am certain the game's aliasing is absolutely terrible, and we're finally getting the bill for that. Note it's not even a pentile issue, since it affects white and you can clearly see that the vive pixels are much, much smaller than anything rendered by Elite Dangerous.

I hear ya about the resolution, but the thing is: 1.5x oversampling does not look significantly better, the issue is still the same. And Elite is the only game with this problem. I can disable AA on various games like space pirate trainer and the graphics do look a bit more steppy, but elite is the only game where lines are either 2px wide or they disappear completely - and the aliasing is so bad that lines disappear for several pixels between steps.

Oh and there's plenty of software where the output on the Vive is practically indistinguishable from being native. In fact, the default scene floor and ceiling gridlines are super fine and you can't determine individual pixels, much less identify pixel stepping. And there sure as hell are no black gaps inbetween steps, like in Elite.

 

[Filmgeek47]

I edited my post, and dialed down some of my language in the process.

But I stand by my assertion. I am certain the game's aliasing is absolutely terrible, and we're finally getting the bill for that. Note it's not even a pentile issue, since it affects white and you can clearly see that the vive pixels are much, much smaller than anything rendered by Elite Dangerous.

I hear ya about the resolution, but the thing is: 1.5x oversampling does not look significantly better, the issue is still the same. And Elite is the only game with this problem. I can disable AA on various games like space pirate trainer and the graphics do look a bit more steppy, but elite is the only game where lines are either 2px wide or they disappear completely - and the aliasing is so bad that lines disappear for several pixels between steps.

Oh and there's plenty of software where the output on the Vive is practically indistinguishable from being native. In fact, the default scene floor and ceiling gridlines are super fine and you can't determine individual pixels, much less identify pixel stepping. And there sure as hell are no black gaps inbetween steps, like in Elite.

Yesh, I've noticed the same things, particularly how much better the wallpapers look in the Vive vs the actual game. This isn't a hardware capability issue.

 

[CMDR Minion Blob]

Hi everyone,

We’ve had a number of people mentioning that their experience in the HTC Vive is not as sharp or contains resolution/focus issues which are specific to aliasing.

We wanted to post up a quick update on our progress relating to these issues and keep you informed.

We’re implementing a fix shortly which will improve the quality of focus on the UI which we hope will significantly improve the readability. We are continuing to work on additional anti-aliasing techniques and hope to be able to share more news on these improvements soon.

We understand the frustration that this can cause and we truly appreciate your patience while we continue to work on additional fixes.

Thanks

Zac

"Some loss in resolution, quality/focus on the HTC Vive?" Understatement of the century. How about "sorry our product is completely unwatchable and unplayable at the moment" until it's fixed TBD even running on of the line hardware and the latest drivers, etc.

I'm sorry but I find this to be a very unethical business practice as now there are a bunch of customers like me who invested $900 for the primary reason your product was advertised to support it. I can take a "sorry our product team is working on it and will announce support when we have finished coding and testing" than the way you guys have handle this. Put yourself into your customers place for a second and tell me why I'm wrong, please...

I get it, software development and optimization takes time, etc., etc., but how about holding back the rollout until it is actually working at an acceptable level. Currently it is far, far from it. Looks like the fix isn't even the latest 2.1 Beta, please correct me if I'm wrong. There is no guidance at all how to configure the graphics setting in ED VR, only two presets "VR High/VR Low." Touching AA/SS settings makes everything even worse...something didn't think was even possible.

Readability of the text is next to impossible, yes, but the issue is not just the UI. Not by a long shot. Everything is stuttering, jagged edges to all visible surfaces with framerates dropping to the low teens? Coming from an X34 Gsync monitor this is not what I was expecting.

====================

Running CoreI7-6770@4Ghz/Asus Maximus VIII Extreme/2xAsus Matrix 6GB 980Ti/Windows 10Pro with the latest drivers/firmware.

 

[Darkfyre99]

I edited my post, and dialed down some of my language in the process.

But I stand by my assertion. I am certain the game's aliasing is absolutely terrible, and we're finally getting the bill for that. Note it's not even a pentile issue, since it affects white and you can clearly see that the vive pixels are much, much smaller than anything rendered by Elite Dangerous.

I hear ya about the resolution, but the thing is: 1.5x oversampling does not look significantly better, the issue is still the same. And Elite is the only game with this problem. I can disable AA on various games like space pirate trainer and the graphics do look a bit more steppy, but elite is the only game where lines are either 2px wide or they disappear completely - and the aliasing is so bad that lines disappear for several pixels between steps.

Oh and there's plenty of software where the output on the Vive is practically indistinguishable from being native. In fact, the default scene floor and ceiling gridlines are super fine and you can't determine individual pixels, much less identify pixel stepping. And there sure as hell are no black gaps inbetween steps, like in Elite.

Thanks for the feedback. Another thing I'll have to check on when I get home from work. I'm now kind of wondering if my Vive is running at a lower resolution than it can, because I've always been able to make out individual pixels even in other games, like the Lab. Kind of like there's a very a fine mesh between me and what I'm seeing. I've been dismissing it as the difference between being used to seeing things on a 4K monitor at a comfortable distance, and having a 1080p monitor right in front of my face. After all, I've played a few Elite YouTube Videos on the Vive desktop as a comparison.

 

[Bongsc2]

Thanks for the feedback. Another thing I'll have to check on when I get home from work. I'm now kind of wondering if my Vive is running at a lower resolution than it can, because I've always been able to make out individual pixels even in other games, like the Lab. Kind of like there's a very a fine mesh between me and what I'm seeing. I've been dismissing it as the difference between being used to seeing things on a 4K monitor at a comfortable distance, and having a 1080p monitor right in front of my face. After all, I've played a few Elite YouTube Videos on the Vive desktop as a comparison.

That's the screendoor effect. I see it too. I doubt our Vives are running in the wrong resolution. Its just way worse in ED than in other games currently.

 

[Darkfyre99]

OK, yet another report from the VR newbie at the dock.

Now that the "OMFG This is Great!" newness has worn off, I'm definitely noticing things I haven't noticed before.

However, now that I've done a little more testing of Elite with and without Steam VR running, I feel I can say this:

I am more certain than ever that Steam VR, while not the source of the problems, is exacerbating their effects. Here is what I've noticed:

With Steam VR running, the scale seems off. By sheer coincidence, my HOTAS setup has the throttle, stick, and foot pedals almost exactly where they are in Elite. My hands feel like they are about where my avatar's hands are, and my feet where my avatar's feet are. This really helps make me feel like I'm in the cockpit. When I'm running Steam VR, everything seems smaller. My hands, resting on my HOTAS, feel like they're resting several inches on either side of where my HOTAS is visually. I put a chair in real life about where the second chair is in my Cobra Mk 3 with Steam VR turned off. When I ran Elite with Steam VR turned on, that chair, visually, was to the left of where the physical chair was.

With Steam VR running, colors seem off. Space wasn't dark enough, the interior of MacKenzie Relay seemed to be washed out, and it generally felt like the brightness was turned up too high. I also found out that the Vive controllers are visible when they're turned on in the game, and I did have a spot of fun using my laser pointer at ships as they docked.

With Steam VR running, god rays and anti-aliasing artifacts are much worse. When Steam VR isn't turned on, I hardly notice the god rays. They're most noticeable when you start the game, when the Elite Dangerous is large and in charge in front of you. The rest of the time, I pretty much have to look at a very bright light and LOOK for the god rays to see them. This isn't the case with Steam VR running. The god rays are much more noticable, and can be seen from many more light sources.

The same is true with anti-aliasing artifacts. With Steam VR turned off, I pretty much have to be paying attention to see them, with the sole exception of bases and stations that are 15-20km away. When large lights and glowing structures are that far away, they look pretty bad. With Steam VR up and running, the anti-aliasing artifacts are much more common, and thus a lot more in your face.

 

[Toumal]

Ok i shall do more testing later today. I did not reboot last time, perhaps that makes a difference.

 

[SpitTheDog]

"Some loss in resolution, quality/focus on the HTC Vive?" Understatement of the century. How about "sorry our product is completely unwatchable and unplayable at the moment" until it's fixed TBD even running on of the line hardware and the latest drivers, etc.

I'm sorry but I find this to be a very unethical business practice as now there are a bunch of customers like me who invested $900 for the primary reason your product was advertised to support it. I can take a "sorry our product team is working on it and will announce support when we have finished coding and testing" than the way you guys have handle this. Put yourself into your customers place for a second and tell me why I'm wrong, please...

I get it, software development and optimization takes time, etc., etc., but how about holding back the rollout until it is actually working at an acceptable level. Currently it is far, far from it. Looks like the fix isn't even the latest 2.1 Beta, please correct me if I'm wrong. There is no guidance at all how to configure the graphics setting in ED VR, only two presets "VR High/VR Low." Touching AA/SS settings makes everything even worse...something didn't think was even possible.

Readability of the text is next to impossible, yes, but the issue is not just the UI. Not by a long shot. Everything is stuttering, jagged edges to all visible surfaces with framerates dropping to the low teens? Coming from an X34 Gsync monitor this is not what I was expecting.

====================

Running CoreI7-6770@4Ghz/Asus Maximus VIII Extreme/2xAsus Matrix 6GB 980Ti/Windows 10Pro with the latest drivers/firmware.

You are obviously frustrated but very few people are taking the "sorry our product is completely unwatchable and unplayable at the moment" stance right now. You have a spec very similar to mine and disabling SLI and playing about with the settings as per comments in this forum made the game absolutely playable for me. Sure the text isn't what it should be but it is far from impossible to read. I am impatient for them to deliver a fix and wish they'd be a bit more communicative about this, but it is far from unethical business practice as you call it.

I have spent many hours playing in CQC and if it was as bad as you said I wouldn't be whupping so many butts. I have played less in the main game but even there since I have to navigate a lot via the menus I can tell you it works well once setup correctly.

I'd like to stop seeing the detail of lines as individual pixels/checkerboard and I'd like for the jaggies to go away on the edges but it is eminently playable.

 

[Lestenio]

Readability of the text is next to impossible, yes, but the issue is not just the UI. Not by a long shot. Everything is stuttering, jagged edges to all visible surfaces with framerates dropping to the low teens? Coming from an X34 Gsync monitor this is not what I was expecting.

====================

Running CoreI7-6770@4Ghz/Asus Maximus VIII Extreme/2xAsus Matrix 6GB 980Ti/Windows 10Pro with the latest drivers/firmware.

Working fine for me with I5 and a 970. Don't run in SLI. It will break just about every VR experience you have.

 

[vizvayu]

Working fine for me with I5 and a 970. Don't run in SLI. It will break just about every VR experience you have.

Framerate in Vive in many places is about 1/20th (or worst) of what I get in regular 1080p. I know it's rendered on a higher resolution but still, there's too much difference in performance.
Text is barely readable, and only if I move my face really close to it.
Graphics are horrendous, with low resolution and lots of aliasing.
And I'm running an i7 4790k@4.5Ghz, 32GB@2.6Ghz, single ASUS Strix 980, all with a good motherboard and power supply. So it's not an SLI problem obviously, and the devs agreed there is a problem (look at the OP) so please don't tell us it's "working fine" because it obviously isn't. Maybe you have less expectations than most of us; I'd respect that... but it's not "working fine", not even close.
And this doesn't mean I don't appreciate the efforts of Frontier to develop a fix. I'm happy if we get a text readibility fix in 2.1, knowing they're still working on the rest of the issues.

 

[kmw]

Cool, so we think it's your avatar's IPD! My IPD is 61cm which judging from the range on the Vive is on the low side.

I don't have VR yet, & I'm no optical expert, but I would say 61cm is a pretty big IPD.

 

[bitstorm]

I don't have VR yet, & I'm no optical expert, but I would say 61cm is a pretty big IPD.

Lol yes!!

Oddly 60.8mm seems to be as low as the Vive goes, I am no optical expert but it makes me think I must have really close together eyes. :|

 

[SpitTheDog]

Lol yes!!

Oddly 60.8mm seems to be as low as the Vive goes, I am no optical expert but it makes me think I must have really close together eyes. :|

If you are completely untrustworthy then you might be right (at least according to my mother).

 

[Darkfyre99]

I measured mine, and mine is 63.5.

According to Wikipedia, mean distance is 62.3 for women, and 64.7 for men, for soldiers in the USArmy in 1988.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpupillary_distance

 

[stripealipe]

Wow, i'm having to work, so i'm unable to check the new Beta5 at the moment, but i'm quite surprised nobody here has been able to test and give feedback on the new build and the newUI scale feature, whatever that may entail.. c'mon, let us know if we're looking any better...

 

[Heavenly-Hammer]

Text resolution is now excellent. Gives me hope that the aliasing issues will also be addressed soon.

 

[SpeedMATS]

Text resolution is now excellent. Gives me hope that the aliasing issues will also be addressed soon.

So are you saying you ARE seeing a difference between beta 4 and beta 5? From your post yesterday you edited to say there was no difference visually for you between beta 4 and 2.0. (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=119900&page=59&p=3897715#post3897715)

I'm not seeing any difference myself and with the patch referencing a graphical option addition but that option lacking in the interface, i'm wondering if there are any code changes supporting VR improvement in the released beta 5 at all. Or perhaps FD have somehow screwed up the beta 5 release rollout/server propagation.

As a side note, I use one of the ED backgrounds for the Vive and the quality/detail is excellent. This has been mentioned by others. Great way to see what it should look like. I'd be very happy when the live game can meet that standard. Reference here: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=675995122