I was right, you were wrong

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

'white knight malice' and a 'cult'.
Not sure if I should ignore these words like you suggested. Anyway I recommend that you stop employing a double standard if you want the other adults to take you seriously.

If you don't associate yourself as part of that those words are harmless. Okay ill be more sensitive sorry (maybe hhehehhehe).

'White knights' usually show up when you are unable to criticse the game but attack the people developing it instead.

Id agree its deserved in those cases, but that's not the only time "they" show up. Actually the only reason id even notice they exist is because they derail discussions on topic into personal attacks and claim they're being awesome, which is just crap.

Also you have to admit the language and expression those people use is incredibly snide and hateful, more so than most when it comes to the game.

EDIT: If you come to the forums, and read the first and fifth post on the last page, how could you not.... wonder whats going on.

 

[space voyager]

There's nothing to feed. The OP posted something as a "fact", got corrected by Frontier and we've never heard from him again...

What OP did was get us an FD official response on one of the matters. Which is FAR more than we usually receive. Thank you, OP!

 

[TheSynopticVision]

No, not really. When you claim that FDEV is a bunch of greedy and incompetent liars that's also quite personal. And it doesn't even address the videogame but the people developing it.

When someone does, sure. But most of the times it is either "the game is boring/bugged" or an impersonal "the developers should do a better job at X".

To which the group of the optimists/faithful reply with personal scorn. And make no mistake: one thing is to correct a factual mistake ("hey, no they actually said it's coming Q2 2020") another to use language aimed at the person.

Personally i think that even the "hilarious" CAN I HAZ YOUR STUFF replies are far more trolling than a honest "i stopped playing because of X". But the clique of the optimists loves them.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

What OP did was get us an FD official response on one of the matters. Which is FAR more than we usually receive. Thank you, OP!

We already have had that response. So basically, nothing has changed.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

When someone does, sure. But most of the times it is either "the game is boring/bugged" or an impersonal "the developers should do a better job at X".

These are personal opinions (apart from the bugs), so they are open to discussion and disagreements. Nothing wrong with having a different opinion and you shouldn't be called names because of that.

To which the group of the optimists/faithful reply with personal scorn. And make no mistake: one thing is to correct a factual mistake ("hey, no they actually said it's coming Q2 2020") another to use language aimed at the person.

Really. I have had it the other way round. As soon as I don't agree with something negative someone has said, the personal attacks start. White knight, fan boy, lied about etc, even though I have many criticisms of the game, just not the same as that person.

Personally i think that even the "hilarious" CAN I HAZ YOUR STUFF replies are far more trolling than a honest "i stopped playing because of X". But the clique of the optimists loves them.

I think that depends on how it's done. Sure it can be trollish, but if done well, its obviously just done for a bit of fun that nobody in their right mind should take exception too.

 

[amigacooke]

Anyway, that's not how being right works. When I claim it will not rain next week and proof for that is that it didn't rain today it doesn't somehow make me right. It's possible that I will be right though.

Actually it is how being right works. At this point either outcome is possible so either can be right.

As to abuse, it would be good if Frontier applied the rules to everyone and moderated it.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Actually it is how being right works. At this point either outcome is possible so either can be right.

Or wrong. Which is what I think most are pointing out. The only evidence we have is what Fdev have said, which implicates that they still intend to include them.

Of course, that could possibly change in the future, but as there is no evidence to say that will happen, the only thing we can go on is what they have said.

So the best way to look at it in my view, is to think they will likely come but with a possibility that they won't.

Not cancelled like the original post.

Keep your own hype in check and you won't be too dispointed if it does get cancelled.

 

[amigacooke]

Or wrong. Which is what I think most are pointing out. The only evidence we have is what Fdev have said, which implicates that they still intend to include them.

Of course, that could possibly change in the future, but as there is no evidence to say that will happen, the only thing we can go on is what they have said.

So the best way to look at it in my view, is to think they will likely come but with a possibility that they won't.

Not cancelled like the original post.

Keep your own hype in check and you won't be too dispointed if it does get cancelled.

Absolutely, either could be wrong, so I agree people shouldn't act as if either are established facts.

There was a time when Frontier saying that something will happen would have been proof enough for me. After 7 years I'm afraid, in my opinion, it neither confirms or denies whether something will occur. I'd suggest that is the way Frontier thinks too, as they will not confirm or deny the contents of updates that are supposedly only months away. They don't have confidence in their own ability to deliver (for whatever reason).

 

[babelfisch]

Actually it is how being right works. At this point either outcome is possible so either can be right.

As to abuse, it would be good if Frontier applied the rules to everyone and moderated it.

That's why I said it's possible that it will be right. You can't say I was right (past tense?) when the criteria takes place in the future. It's really not that complicated.
If at some point in the future it turns out that OP was right, that's the time to say 'I was right' until then it's Schrödinger's Cat.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Absolutely, either could be wrong, so I agree people shouldn't act as if either are established facts.

There was a time when Frontier saying that something will happen would have been proof enough for me. After 7 years I'm afraid, in my opinion, it neither confirms or denies whether something will occur. I'd suggest that is the way Frontier thinks too, as they will not confirm or deny the contents of updates that are supposedly only months away. They don't have confidence in their own ability to deliver (for whatever reason).

I wouldn't call it not having confidence in their own ability to deliver. It's more likely a timing issue. They were probably on a knife edge on whether they could deliver all of that with the time they had. For instance, fleet carriers, they probably have already got a lot of the basics done as that would already have been worked on well before the announcement that they had been delayed. They just ran out of time and now most of the team is working on the next era. Of course fleet carriers could come at the same time as the next era, but they will be a free update like the base got when horizons came out.

We shall have to wait and see.

 

[amigacooke]

I wouldn't call it not having confidence in their own ability to deliver. It's more likely a timing issue. They were probably on a knife edge on whether they could deliver all of that with the time they had. For instance, fleet carriers, they probably have already got a lot of the basics done as that would already have been worked on well before the announcement that they had been delayed. They just ran out of time and now most of the team is working on the next era. Of course fleet carriers could come at the same time as the next era, but they will be a free update like the base got when horizons came out.

We shall have to wait and see.

That may well be true, but Frontier didn't deliver what they said they would, which is just one example of Frontier (for whatever reason) not delivering what they say they will. Which is why I don't really put much weight on what Frontier say, only what they do.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

That may well be true, but Frontier didn't deliver what they said they would, which is just one example of Frontier (for whatever reason) not delivering what they say they will. Which is why I don't really put much weight on what Frontier say, only what they do.

I never did to begin with. Look at most games that are being developed that have an online road map. They are continually changing, things are pushed back, things are bought forward etc. Fdev are no different, they just keep it behind a curtain.

While we didn't get fleet carriers, we did get a big update to the BGS which actually will make fleet carriers worth having. Before that update, fleet carriers would have little need where factions are concerned.

They also may have looked at all the ideas and feedback from the players on what fleet carriers could be and decided that instead of putting in something half baked or bare bones they want to do them justice which could take a lot longer.

 

[amigacooke]

While we didn't get fleet carriers, we did get a big update to the BGS which actually will make fleet carriers worth having. Before that update, fleet carriers would have little need where factions are concerned.

They also may have looked at all the ideas and feedback from the players on what fleet carriers could be and decided that instead of putting in something half baked or bare bones they want to do them justice which could take a lot longer.

Well you obviously have access to more information than me, I don't recall Frontier giving much away about the fleet carriers or their function. And as I thought we just agreed, what Frontier say is going to happen and what results (If anything) may be entirely different things.

I guess it may also be a difference in perspective. Those who have bought ED 'as is' may well wonder what all the fuss is about, good game now, probably more goodies to come. This person who bought the 'vision' from the KickStarter is wondering when all those missing bits from that money raising exercise 7 years ago are going to happen. If they don't come (for whatever reason) there will be a nasty taste left in the mouth, the more that doesn't make it, the nastier the taste will be.

 

[TheSynopticVision]

Fdev are no different, they just keep it behind a curtain.

See (and I really have no interest in setting up a polemic or word-fight with anyone over these relatively silly issues) but this is exactly the point. The curtain.

I do not assume that Frontier is so haphazardly run that they do not have a roadmap. I just think that less curtains would help us have a clearer idea of what they're doing, have reasonable expectations, and no bitterness towards "unfulfilled promises"

(and as a sidenote: this pertains the future. I personally think that the past is much more interesting when we are to evaluate Frontier's performance, because there is no space for speculations there. With all the goodwill I can muster, I cannot honestly claim that the 5 years of development of Elite -- on the macro-scale and on the micro-scale of how single issues have been dealt with -- has been particularly stellar.)

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

See (and I really have no interest in setting up a polemic or word-fight with anyone over these relatively silly issues) but this is exactly the point. The curtain.

I do not assume that Frontier is so haphazardly run that they do not have a roadmap. I just think that less curtains would help us have a clearer idea of what they're doing, have reasonable expectations, and no bitterness towards "unfulfilled promises"

(and as a sidenote: this pertains the future. I personally think that the past is much more interesting when we are to evaluate Frontier's performance, because there is no space for speculations there. With all the goodwill I can muster, I cannot honestly claim that the 5 years of development of Elite -- on the macro-scale and on the micro-scale of how single issues have been dealt with -- has been particularly stellar.)

To me it matters not if there is a curtain or not. Having a road map that is constantly changing doesn't mean much either. What we do know is that they are working on something big. I don't need to know anything else.

 

[amigacooke]

To me it matters not if there is a curtain or not. Having a road map that is constantly changing doesn't mean much either. What we do know is that they are working on something big. I don't need to know anything else.

Sorry to be pedantic, but what we know is that Frontier say they are working on something big. We don't know anything else.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Well you obviously have access to more information than me, I don't recall Frontier giving much away about the fleet carriers or their function. And as I thought we just agreed, what Frontier say is going to happen and what results (If anything) may be entirely different things.

I don't think I have anymore access to you. I'm just a regular player.

I was just pointing out possible reason why they were delayed. And thinking that they would have done some work on them already is just an educated guess. Some of the work for fleet carriers would surely have been done well before the design phase.

I guess it may also be a difference in perspective. Those who have bought ED 'as is' may well wonder what all the fuss is about, good game now, probably more goodies to come. This person who bought the 'vision' from the KickStarter is wondering when all those missing bits from that money raising exercise 7 years ago are going to happen. If they don't come (for whatever reason) there will be a nasty taste left in the mouth, the more that doesn't make it, the nastier the taste will be.

Sure, I understand that. The issue with Kickstarters is that you may not get or only partially receive what you were hoping for. Most Kickstarters don't succeed and a lot of those that do, the company disappears with your money. Kickstarters are always a risk.

But I do believe Fdev will add these things at some point.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Sorry to be pedantic, but what we know is that Frontier say they are working on something big. We don't know anything else.

That's is pedantic. And I have no reason to not believe them currently. I will think of it as a fact until I know otherwise.

Also we have that leak. Could be rubbish, but so far it's been very accurate.

The small amount of evidence we have points to something big. We shall have to wait and see.

Having s road map is no different. They are still saying they are working on stuff but we won't know until it drops. Just like every other company out there.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

There's nothing to feed. The OP posted something as a "fact", got corrected by Frontier and we've never heard from him again...

Ah, but he probably still thinks he is right.

 

[amigacooke]

That's is pedantic. And I have no reason to not believe them currently. I will think of it as a fact until I know otherwise.

Also we have that leak. Could be rubbish, but so far it's been very accurate.

The small amount of evidence we have points to something big. We shall have to wait and see.

Oh come now Max, you remember how Frontier bigged up 3.3, how it was explained 3.1 and 3.2 would be smaller so everything could get into 3.3?

Then there were cuts from 3.3.

You do have reason to be skeptical of Frontier's output, but I applaud your loyalty. I wish I could still be in that place.