If Combat Logging is a bad thing. Then why is it okay to attack a player faction without being seen?

[Stewart_]

LOL - the car analogy. Flawed.

Elite wasn’t built from the ground up to be a single instanced mmo,
(To change this now would be a large effort). Likewise a car is built up for safety and designed to pass regulatory safety checks.

Isn;t that kinda like saying 'we won't make cars that have safer collisions, because people are going ot have collisions anyway'... We don't avoid solving a problem just because the proposed solution doesn't catch edge cases, no? I'm not being facetious, I just don't see these as reasons not to make some effort to make it fairer.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I would say it's definitely a problem that the meat of this game for long term players (BGS) is easily 'gamed', and the gamed faction can't do anything about it if the perpetrators are in solo.

How big a problem is definitely up for some debate. Should something be done to make it fairer? CAN something be done? I dunno, but to pretend that it's all good and working perfectly, is as as just as unrealistic as suggesting that the 'BGS should not be affected by actions in solo'.

I don't know what I'd do, but I wanted to point out that just because any potential change would not affect the cross platform problem, that wouldn't be a very good reason to therefore do nothing or ever try to make it 'fairer'.

It's the PvP / PvE debate - that's all that it has ever been. There are players who cannot accept that others can play the game without them having the opportunity to directly oppose them.

This game does not require any player to engage in PvP, even though players can choose to engage in PvP.

If Frontier had been designing a PvP game then we'd only have a single game mode and the network architecture would likely have been fundamentally different.

 

[Aashenfox]

It's the PvP / PvE debate - that's all that it has ever been. There are players who cannot accept that others can play the game without them having the opportunity to directly oppose them.

This game does not require any player to engage in PvP, even though players can choose to engage in PvP.

If Frontier had been designing a PvP game then we'd only have a single game mode and the network architecture would likely have been fundamentally different.

Erm, yes. Exactly. It's not very smart design. Please admit it.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Erm, yes. Exactly. It's not very smart design. Please admit it.

It's great design - for a game that is PvE based and not designed to be dominated by PvP.

 

[Aashenfox]

LOL - the car analogy. Flawed.

Elite wasn’t built from the ground up to be a single instanced mmo,
(To change this now would be a large effort). Likewise a car is built up for safety and designed to pass regulatory safety checks.

Nor was it built to be an MMO, and therein lies the problem. It has MMO elements that don't work very well and single player elements that have an affect on the MMO side of the game. It;s not very well designed, is it? Let's be honest. Yes, I agree it would be a hell of a job to change now, but again that doesn't mean it's not worth discussing or dismissing people's perfectly valid input on the topic. I'm just discussing, there's no need to be derisive or dismissive with capital LOLs.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Explained a thousand times already. They simply spam the forum with their open only neonsense anyway. Tomorrow it's gonna be a different troll with a different thing.

The bad thing is that even repeateing the most inane crap over and over and someone is going and wondering if there's a point to it.

 

[Aashenfox]

It's great design - for a game that is PvE based and not designed to be dominated by PvP.

That's a very well constructed statement, to push your view to moderacy and mine to extremism.

I'm not saying the game should be dominated by pvp, but I am saying that it shouldn't be so easy to undermine a faction without them being able to do a thing about it (except be forced to do whatever gameplay is required to counter that). It's like fighting a war, you've got all your soldiers on the front line, waiting for the enemy, then you realise they've already sacked the castle, the princess and beheaded Ned Stark, without you being able to do a thing or even knowing it was happening.

PVP will be rare and meaningful.

 

[KillaALF]

It;s not very well designed, is it?

I strongly disagree, in my not so very humble opinion the design is ingenious. Every platform, every mode affects the same BGS, which in turn makes for a more lively universe for all.

 

[Robert Maynard]

That's a very well constructed statement, to push your view to moderacy and mine to extremism.

I'm not saying the game should be dominated by pvp, but I am saying that it shouldn't be so easy to undermine a faction without them being able to do a thing about it (except be forced to do whatever gameplay is required to counter that). It's like fighting a war, you've got all your soldiers on the front line, waiting for the enemy, then you realise they've already sacked the castle, the princess and beheaded Ned Stark, without you being able to do a thing or even knowing it was happening.

PVP will be rare and meaningful.

PvP is either optional (as it is now) or it is not. It all boils down to that simple choice that Frontier made years ago.

Every player has the same toolset available to them to both attack and defend through the BGS.

That some players want to remove the choice of other players to suit their preferred, optional, play-style is obvious - however Frontier don't seem to be inclined to do so.

There's the outstanding investigation on PowerPlay - that *might* make PowerPlay (and, from what Sandro has stated, PowerPlay only) either Open only or offer a bonus for engaging in it in Open. From that it can be inferred that PowerPlay is *the* candidate for change to a mode differentiated PvP feature. We'll see what, if anything, is announced in that regard in due course.

 

[Stewart_]

Not an MMO - and thats my point. Elite wasn’t built to be the game YOU want it to be.

Bad design - for what - a multi instanced / multi mode game? Not necessarily. Again, you want the game to fit in to how YOU want to play, but elite isn’t that game.

The fact is: frontier themselves have said all game modes are equal. Then, people start posting crap like ‘solo is cheating / easy mode’ blah blah blah.

Sure, debate is good - but don’t start the ‘solo is cheat mode’ crap.

The car analogy was poor.

LOL is supposed to be capitals. It’s an accroymn ( spelling ).

Nor was it built to be an MMO, and therein lies the problem. It has MMO elements that don't work very well and single player elements that have an affect on the MMO side of the game. It;s not very well designed, is it? Let's be honest. Yes, I agree it would be a hell of a job to change now, but again that doesn't mean it's not worth discussing or dismissing people's perfectly valid input on the topic. I'm just discussing, there's no need to be derisive or dismissive with capital LOLs.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

The way the design has made it possible for players to be able to adjust their game upon their mood or preferred play style is absolutely genius. Especially because there are no downsides on choosing one mode over the other. You log into the game, you decide, you play. You can fly around the galaxy undisturbed, fly with like minded people, or face the slings and arrows of public mode. Elite isn't hampered by players who deem a system "their system" and dictate how other people play, only when those other players have signed up for it are. Just as it should be.

Personally, I will never jump through a player's hoops. Game developers are the only people who I allow to construct such hoops. And this has always been a barrier for me to play MMOs. Elite's system makes it possible for me to play that MMO, on my own terms and under the rules the developers have set. Now I've seen all the threads of would be Napoleonic Little Tyrants who would love nothing more than me to dance for them, and they'll argue how it's unfair they can't make me dance for them, and for me that is testament the modes are working as designed.

So, tip of the hat to Frontier, who made it possible for an occasional reclusive as me to enjoy an MMO on my terms, and even be tempted to dip my toes in social events in that MMO.


The only thing missing is a "do not disturb" comms message. But that's not the modes fault.

 

[Aashenfox]

Not an MMO - and thats my point. Elite wasn’t built to be the game YOU want it to be.

Bad design - for what - a multi instanced / multi mode game? Not necessarily. Again, you want the game to fit in to how YOU want to play, but elite isn’t that game.

The fact is: frontier themselves have said all game modes are equal. Then, people start posting crap like ‘solo is cheating / easy mode’ blah blah blah.

Sure, debate is good - but don’t start the ‘solo is cheat mode’ crap.

The car analogy was poor.

Eh?

1) Thanks for telling me yet again how you don't like my analogy that was a minor point quite a few posts ago, that was really helpful to the debate.
2) I never said solo is cheating, easy mode, or blah blah.
3) You say debate is good but you don't debate, you try to shut me down by accusing me of saying things I didn't say and try to project something onto me that I am not.

That90skid, forget it, no amount of arguing is going to make people face the consequences of their actions in this game, because...they don't want to face any consequences for their actions. Funny because it's exactly this separation caused by the internet, which causes an otherwise reasonable person like Stewart to speak to me as if I'm some kind of peasant just because i wanted to discuss this rationally (plus being ont he majority side of the debate gives him the confidence to be rude and not give a toss, because he feels he'll have support whatever he writes).

I'm out, this debate is unwinnable, and I am a subscriber to the phrase "Grant me the courage to accept the things I cannot change, the strength to change the things I cannot accept and the wisdom to know the difference". My wisdom tells me this is the former.

 

[M00ka]

Eh?

1) Thanks for telling me yet again how you don't like my analogy that was a minor point quite a few posts ago, that was really helpful to the debate.
2) I never said solo is cheating, easy mode, or blah blah.
3) You say debate is good but you don't debate, you try to shut me down by accusing me of saying things I didn't say and try to project something onto me that I am not.

That90skid, forget it, no amount of arguing is going to make people face the consequences of their actions in this game, because...they don't want to face any consequences for their actions. Funny because it's exactly this separation caused by the internet, which causes an otherwise reasonable person like Stewart to speak to me as if I'm some kind of peasant just because i wanted to discuss this rationally.

.
Fair enough, so what is your solution to this problem? Please take into account that a small minority of players actively play the BGS and an even smaller part of the player base participate in PvP (whether it be consensual or forced).

 

[M. Grey]

24 Hours a Day, Player groups with 50 to over 500 players in a group. Really a moot point, Frontier wants to do the same with powerplay.

Go ask sandro about these questions about powerplay. Ill wait.

The same applies.

Ok, you covered the time zones. This does not make all questions "moot".
What about the other? Especially instancing and the block list.

Again how is this even about BGS? You're sitting in supercruise, waiting for those attackers.

- You're not even sure the CMDR you kill runs missions for you. Kill him, the missions fail, it hurts your faction.
- You kill a clean CMDR, this is a crime, this hurts your faction (ofc only when you're in control).

You'd be more effective actually doing BGS work.

 

[Brrokk]

I strongly disagree, in my not so very humble opinion the design is ingenious. Every platform, every mode affects the same BGS, which in turn makes for a more lively universe for all.

This. One of the best online game setups I've ever seen.

 

[Robert Maynard]

That90skid, forget it, no amount of arguing is going to make people face the consequences of their actions in this game, because...

.... because attempting to change a player's preferred play-style is a fruitless endeavour.

 

[Aashenfox]

.
Fair enough, so what is your solution to this problem? Please take into account that a small minority of players actively play the BGS and an even smaller part of the player base participate in PvP (whether it be consensual or forced).

I don't have one, but once again, that's not a reason not to debate it. Given the prevalent attitudes in this thread (which are echoed throughout the forum "do what you want, but if you propose a change for the greater good that changes the way I play the game, god be with you!", I certainly won't waste my time giving it serious thought now.

 

[Vasious]

I must admit I have only read the title and not the OP or the other 8 pages but

For someone to combat log on me, I have actually instanced with them to begin with.

Where as, given my time zone, even if the opposing players are in open we are probably out of sync by 12 hours, so they may as well be in a PG or Solo for chances to see them.


in the first case it is a moment to moment battle between two Cmdrs, and one makes an ungraceful exit

The other, two groups have an entire day, to carry out numerous activates for the BGS, in different locations within a system, or from outside a system, at different times of the day, doesn't seem like mode really changes much, given so many other reasons why I am unlikely to be in the same place at the same time to begin with.

 

[Stewart_]

1. Your welcome. It was crap , but thanks for bringing it up again. ;-)

2. I was referring to the common argument . Not necessarily what you said, should have made that clearer.

3. There is debate. Stop making yourself look like a victim!

4. Elite wasn’t designed for apparently the game you want it to be.

There are game modes and all game modes are connected to the same universe. There are pros and cons. Unfortunately, one of the cons is the ability to UA bomb in solo.

Eh?

1) Thanks for telling me yet again how you don't like my analogy that was a minor point quite a few posts ago, that was really helpful to the debate.
2) I never said solo is cheating, easy mode, or blah blah.
3) You say debate is good but you don't debate, you try to shut me down by accusing me of saying things I didn't say and try to project something onto me that I am not.

That90skid, forget it, no amount of arguing is going to make people face the consequences of their actions in this game, because...they don't want to face any consequences for their actions. Funny because it's exactly this separation caused by the internet, which causes an otherwise reasonable person like Stewart to speak to me as if I'm some kind of peasant just because i wanted to discuss this rationally (plus being ont he majority side of the debate gives him the confidence to be rude and not give a toss, because he feels he'll have support whatever he writes).

 

[Aashenfox]

.... because attempting to change a player's preferred play-style is a fruitless endeavour.

I don't want to change anyone's play style. Those who manipulate the BGS from solo change other players playstyle, byt forcing them to do certain gameplay to undo whatever has been done.

Anyway, enough, really, I don't even care about it that much, it's ok as it is, but if someone posts a thread and they have a point, I can't stand by and watch the usual back-patters act like it's the craziest most destructive thing ever said (see, I can project, too).