Powerplay If New Powers Were Designed?

[krylite]

Yes, someone mentioned they were mining some system at the edge or outside the bubble where there were no res zones on a ring, an uninhabited system. Then later on there was a small population there and res zones appeared. Pretty nifty if it was a verified ongoing system that allowed player activity to somehow initiate some colonization process and not just some dev intervention. Then, maybe the CC overhead formula could be adjusted so that more systems on the edge could be expanded into.

 

[aspiringexpatriate]

Yes, someone mentioned they were mining some system at the edge or outside the bubble where there were no res zones on a ring, an uninhabited system. Then later on there was a small population there and res zones appeared. Pretty nifty if it was a verified ongoing system that allowed player activity to somehow initiate some colonization process and not just some dev intervention. Then, maybe the CC overhead formula could be adjusted so that more systems on the edge could be expanded into.

I'd love to see the source on this. Last I heard, the only time galactic population has grown was with Horizons. Yes, RESs will appear and shift due to how player interaction affects hidden values like Security Level, but I've never heard of player activity causing a population increase that wasn't triggered more by Horizons than players.

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The large powers would instantly fold and end up stuck at the bottom of the board afterwards.

Using Mahon as an example, he'd instantly face about 30,000 CC as his overheads - 18,000 more than his total income. Once that becomes obvious to everyone else in PowerPlay, he is going to have every single valuable control system in automatic turmoil, because every other power would (or at least should) undermine every single system he has, and leave the worst systems alone.

As a result, the valuable systems end up with default upkeeps and go first on the chopping board. I did the maths a while ago, and Mahon ends up with around 40 close-in systems and a fairly nasty default deficit. The only way this doesn't happen, is if every other power decides to do the stupid thing and not attack him.

In the current set of rules, it is borderline impossible to shed bad systems, and for Mahon it is impossible to do so without a massive amount of trust being put into the people doing the undermining AND requires saboteurs to not fortify the bad systems, and even then it's fairly close to impossible to shed systems like MCC 686, Wolf 412 and Akheilos. Those are millstones around his economic neck, and their upkeeps (even if undermined) are lower than the default upkeeps of some of his valuable systems.

I don't mind if PowerPlay changes, but if a change is the immediate death knell for the power that's been on top of the leaderboard for 75% of PowerPlay, that change is absolutely the wrong change to make, and going back to that system absolutely will be.

I would love to see the pre-Bail Out 1.0 Overhead numbers applied to all the Powers as we stand currently. (I'd say include contested systems in exploited system count applied to overhead, too.) I think only Delaine would escape without affect at this point. I know Mahon would suffer the most, but Hudson, Winters, Aisling, and ALD would also be hit fairly hard, and while Mahon might not have any explicit allies, it also doesn't have as many active enemies as any of those for powers. We would all scramble to try and lose bad systems while saving good systems, while our grinders would try and fortify everything and damn those Powers with large amounts of unorganised players to drastic and uncontrollable collapse. So honestly, I don't think Mahon would be the worst hit over the month we all reacted to the change.

But I agree, making a big change like that while it continues to be impossible to shed horrible systems close to HQ would be bad for a lot of Powers.

But after the dust settles, it would be interesting again, because we simply wouldn't be able to expand beyond 60 control systems anymore, and what we did have would be vulnerable to attack to some degree.

 

[Iskariot]

A new Alliance Power would be cool.
And also 2 small powers in the second bubble to start out with.

As far as powers completely dying is concerned...
Personally I don't think I would like that.
Even a purely criminal power like Archon Delain I would hate to see disappear.
He is a cool looking character and I like him being there.

What I would like is there to be some more special characteristics and mechanics to make a such a power unique in the way they operate in the galaxy.
For example there should be at least one unregistered station in Archon Delain controlled systems (stations that use the skull emblem). This station might be added to his systems as soon as he gains control (a small outpost), or it might be an existing station of any size.
When I go into such a system I would like Archon Delain ships hailing me and telling me to go pay protection money at that station. When I do I will not be bothered again. When I don't I will be interdicted and attacked.
This should of course affect all players, not just PP players.

 

[Calrissian]

There should have been and IMO, should be a power for Democracy/Political. Hudson being Feudal still makes no sense to me whatsoever.

A monarchy power that is Feudal based would be or have been cooler. Even a constitutional monarchy power.

A religious major power would also be interesting. I currently find the religious minor factions intriguing myself. (Roleplaying purposes).

Powers should have the ability to die out.

The Alliance shouldn't be given another power. They had their chance and the Grom folks won. Also, given the ferocity of the Grom win and their practical standstill within PowerPlay is IMO a testament to how flawed PowerPlay currently is.

 

[ChampN252]

While i agree with you guys, this game has a planned at least 10 year life span. I'm sure 3 years from now, this game will be very different. They'll probably be a thargoid superpower. Who knows?

 

[Martin Schou]

There should have been and IMO, should be a power for Democracy/Political.

I disagree. The moment you have an ethos that supports democracy, you have a de-facto good guy and would have a ton of supporters simply because of that.

Hudson being Feudal still makes no sense to me whatsoever.

It makes as much sense as Aisling's ethos.

 

[aspiringexpatriate]

I disagree. The moment you have an ethos that supports democracy, you have a de-facto good guy and would have a ton of supporters simply because of that.

Even if the ethos that was 'strong against democracy' was titled 'Manipulative' and leveraged mass media assets to ensure the populace agreed with the Power? And the fortification delivering was 'opiates for the masses'?

 

[Martin Schou]

Even if the ethos that was 'strong against democracy' was titled 'Manipulative' and leveraged mass media assets to ensure the populace agreed with the Power? And the fortification delivering was 'opiates for the masses'?

Given the amount of people who don't bother reading, yes. They'll just see "strong against democracy" and flock to support it. Look at how difficult it is to win a war against a Federation Democracy for an example of that.

 

[Calrissian]

I disagree. The moment you have an ethos that supports democracy, you have a de-facto good guy and would have a ton of supporters simply because of that.



It makes as much sense as Aisling's ethos.

I disagree. Democracy is relatable to most of us but it doesn't mean it's good or bad or that it works. Donald Trump is a good example of this. It's that "relatable" factor that could cause a problem because I agree with you that people don't read into things.

And by the game at least, the Alliance isn't a democracy. It's a Coalition.

Aisling makes a lot more sense to me than Hudson. She's a Socialite. Given that her Overview makes sense to me although a bit twisted in the work necessary in game to really make her optimal.

 

[Sitoutumaton]

Given the amount of people who don't bother reading, yes. They'll just see "strong against democracy" and flock to support it. Look at how difficult it is to win a war against a Federation Democracy for an example of that.

This and democracies being second most popular and populous government in systems, as seen in the galactic census v2, your rebuttals are starting to sound like "please don't suggest anything that could weaken our power."

 

[Martin Schou]

This and democracies being second most popular and populous government in systems, as seen in the galactic census v2, your rebuttals are starting to sound like "please don't suggest anything that could weaken our power."

I've made the same argument since I got into PowerPlay, and my most indepth idea for how to revise PowerPlay would result in Mahon dropping in the standings like a rock (would likely end up about rating 7 behind the Federation and Empire). My issue isn't "oh my gosh, Mahon would no longer be number one", and it has never been that issue - it's one of balance, and one of not making any power the default good guys.

And currently there are "only" 1,900ish (give or take the accuracy of EDDB) democracies that are not part of PowerPlay (my count doesn't separate out contested systems) compared to 3,800ish corporate systems, and both Winters and Li Yong-Rui are strong against the latter. The reason this doesn't matter has nothing to do with the number of systems, but the complete lack of profitability of the remaining areas in space. How many there are is far less relevant than how dense the space is.

In the current space, there's not room for more powers. The only way to make room for more powers is to either implement collapse or redesign PowerPlay entirely. If we go with the latter, Mahon will be reset, and then who cares about the current standings? No one - but strong against democracy is still a bad idea for an ethos, because it makes those powers the default good guys.

 

[Martin Schou]

Aisling makes a lot more sense to me than Hudson. She's a Socialite. Given that her Overview makes sense to me although a bit twisted in the work necessary in game to really make her optimal.

Please find the Empire factions that Aisling is strong against. Once you've compiled that list, compare it to the list of Federation factions that Hudson is strong against and explain to me the difference between the two lists.

Neither of these powers can work the BGS to their advantage in a reasonable way, as neither of them have factions that fit their super power. This is moronic - if their supporters wants to reduce triggers, they have to reduce the Empire/Federation influence in their areas significantly, regardless of how much sense it may or may not make in terms of how you view and interpret their characters. It's especially moronic for Aisling, as one of her active perks is improved effects of BGS manipulation. Work for the Empire princess by working against the Empire. Work for the Federation president by working against the Federation.

[Edit: Removed something that's far too stupid and adversarial to be worth reading]

 

[Calrissian]

Please find the Empire factions that Aisling is strong against. Once you've compiled that list, compare it to the list of Federation factions that Hudson is strong against and explain to me the difference between the two lists.

Neither of these powers can work the BGS to their advantage in a reasonable way, as neither of them have factions that fit their super power. This is moronic - if their supporters wants to reduce triggers, they have to reduce the Empire/Federation influence in their areas significantly, regardless of how much sense it may or may not make in terms of how you view and interpret their characters. It's especially moronic for Aisling, as one of her active perks is improved effects of BGS manipulation. Work for the Empire princess by working against the Empire. Work for the Federation president by working against the Federation.

If you cannot understand how moronic this is, then you're beyond my ability to help.

1. I wasn't asking for your help.
2. I was agreeing with you.

Again, I can better understand Aisling's setup because she's a Socialite. Is it efficient in game. No. Her power would have to take over systems that are currently controlled by corporations and then flip that control to cooperative factions. It's a lot more work but her setup is appealing and falls in line with a Socialite looking to evolve a Republic into something better.

Hudson however just makes little to no sense whatsoever. Even given his character.

I get that by the numbers they are about the same in working their setups. Adding DEPTH of Character, Aisling makes more sense than Hudson.

PowerPlay needs a V2. It doesn't need Jesus, but it does need some work. I mean a "contracting team" kind of work to tear it down to the foundations and remodel the house.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Game mechanics aside, in a strange way is Aisling working as intended? She is Imperial, but a radical who wants to reform Imperial society- so would she be fighting against 'traditional' Imperial govs?

 

[Martin Schou]

1. I wasn't asking for your help.

You're right. My ending of that particular post is/was needlessly hostile, so I've removed it.

Again, I can better understand Aisling's setup because she's a Socialite. Is it efficient in game. No. Her power would have to take over systems that are currently controlled by corporations and then flip that control to cooperative factions. It's a lot more work but her setup is appealing and falls in line with a Socialite looking to evolve a Republic into something better.

Hudson however just makes little to no sense whatsoever. Even given his character.

I get that by the numbers they are about the same in working their setups. Adding DEPTH of Character, Aisling makes more sense than Hudson.

I suppose part of the issue is how we look at PowerPlay. When talking about it, I tend to look at it from a practical rules and balance view, which is where Hudson and Aisling are essentially being asked to undermine their own superpower.

PowerPlay needs a V2. It doesn't need Jesus, but it does need some work. I mean a "contracting team" kind of work to tear it down to the foundations and remodel the house.

I agree, but before doing that, it would be nice to know what it is that is envisioned for PowerPlay. Sandro said he sees it as a conflict, which is a start, but both Chess and Battlefield 1 is about conflict, and they go about representing it in wildly differing ways. For example, one way to wholly transform PowerPlay is to make PowerPlay far more abstract and using it merely as a sort of scoring system and moving all the mechanics onto the BGS (i.e. score each power by the number of systems their particular superpower and favoured factions control) and rewarding each power's pledges in those systems (my own personal favourite so far), but if that doesn't fit with FDev's ideas (and I don't think it does), then it's a waste of time to talk about how that could work.

Similarly it would be nice to know what it is that the characters are supposed to represent. For example, what is the "point" of Antal, when he's never represented in any of the stories that are published on Galnet? And what is it that the pledges are supposed to represent? We're not the leaders of any of the powers, nor are we the spokes people for them, but clearly some of the powers are organized enough that those groups are effectively the leaders - and the game either needs a way to recognize that OR make it such that the player influence is far lower than it is now.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Similarly it would be nice to know what it is that the characters are supposed to represent. For example, what is the "point" of Antal, when he's never represented in any of the stories that are published on Galnet?

This has been one of my major problems with PowerPlay - very few of the leaders get to have a personality, which is a problem for a structure based around individuals rather than organisations. They mostly weren't introduced well, and mostly haven't said much since. I assume all part of the same prioritisation that means we get one non-procedural Galnet article a week if we're lucky.

Hudson: Fine, presidential warmonger of the Federation. It's a fairly 1-dimensional personality but it's definitely a personality.

Winters: Briefly introduced as acting leader of the now-opposition party, putting forward a more peaceful approach in contrast to both Hudson and Halsey. Since then, has not visibly opposed anything.

ALD: The emperor, gets a fair bit of airtime. They have a personality but don't use it on official business.

Duval: Fairly well-established character but other than not liking Salome much hasn't done anything for years.

Patreus: Repeated hints that they might be up to something repeatedly go nowhere. Has probably given up trying.

Torval: Generic Imperial Senator. Has sent her official portrait to every meeting for the last year. No-one has noticed.

Mahon: Only able to get a quote disagreeing with Hudson. Should perhaps swap jobs with Winters.

LYR: Okay, it makes sense that they pretend to just be a dull businessman, but they didn't even get quotes when Sirius was in the spotlight.

Antal: May be discovering a flaw with their plan to be the leader of a personality cult.

Delaine: Too busy enjoying the loot to answer the phone to journalists.

Grom: Who?

It's quite a large cast to manage and give reasonable airtime to all of them - definitely not saying it would be easy - but presumably most of them either have opinions they want to share on current events or have journalists who want to know what their opinions are.

 

[Rubbernuke]

This has been one of my major problems with PowerPlay - very few of the leaders get to have a personality, which is a problem for a structure based around individuals rather than organisations. They mostly weren't introduced well, and mostly haven't said much since. I assume all part of the same prioritisation that means we get one non-procedural Galnet article a week if we're lucky.

Hudson: Fine, presidential warmonger of the Federation. It's a fairly 1-dimensional personality but it's definitely a personality.

Winters: Briefly introduced as acting leader of the now-opposition party, putting forward a more peaceful approach in contrast to both Hudson and Halsey. Since then, has not visibly opposed anything.

ALD: The emperor, gets a fair bit of airtime. They have a personality but don't use it on official business.

Duval: Fairly well-established character but other than not liking Salome much hasn't done anything for years.

Patreus: Repeated hints that they might be up to something repeatedly go nowhere. Has probably given up trying.

Torval: Generic Imperial Senator. Has sent her official portrait to every meeting for the last year. No-one has noticed.

Mahon: Only able to get a quote disagreeing with Hudson. Should perhaps swap jobs with Winters.

LYR: Okay, it makes sense that they pretend to just be a dull businessman, but they didn't even get quotes when Sirius was in the spotlight.

Antal: May be discovering a flaw with their plan to be the leader of a personality cult.

Delaine: Too busy enjoying the loot to answer the phone to journalists.

Grom: Who?

It's quite a large cast to manage and give reasonable airtime to all of them - definitely not saying it would be easy - but presumably most of them either have opinions they want to share on current events or have journalists who want to know what their opinions are.

It would be utterly trivial to bash out a quote or even a paragraph for each leader and pipe it through the weekly 'you have money to claim' message, or have it as station news in the capitals. At the very least 1000 words a week would cover it, which would be simplicity itself for lore writers who have the ED lore bible to hand in FD towers. Its shameful we have to buy a novel to get background on the story when it should be given to us twice a week with fluff stories to add flavour.

It was interesting when DBOBE was talking about a leader that sounded like Antal, and dropped hints to his past. Why is this not in game? I get frustrated and sad we have these balanced characters that have been forgotten, while aliens and Palin drive everything.

 

[Sixteen-String Jack]

There was an opportunity to have a democratic Power though, when the Social Eleu Progressives were in the Dangerous Games. They were the best-supported of the also-rans, however that wouldn't seem to indicate that a Power strong against democracy would dominate? If Powerplay should have more Powers for completeness then democracies and theocracies would seem to lack representation.

I find it difficult to follow the concept of the Powers in the current version, there seem to be all sorts of needless complications. The superpowers are territorial entities and yet they don't have a defined territory, the Empire, Federation and Alliance are present wherever one of their aligned factions is in control. However these shadow non-territorial Powers do require territory and have headquarters and regional administrations. Why not just levy contributions from minor factions? Also, for shadow entities they have a huge effect on system traffic?

The power modules make little sense either, the notion that independent traders will only sell power modules to power pledges is somewhat silly, and presumably they self-destruct if stolen but not if the commander leaves the Power...? Its as convincing as the Masque of the Red Death bgs mechanics, where Prince Prospero and his friends are immune from disease because diseases selectively affect political factions rather than systems.

The pop chart rank mechanic is silly too, why should some odd rating system have an impact on the galaxy? If I had one aspiration for Powerplay 2.0 it would be that the abstracted mechanics should be rationalised and given a presence in the galaxy. Factions wouldn't have a specific module, instead that module would be specific to one system and only the pledges of the Power that controlled the system could buy it there. There could be other specialist systems, one for each ship or weapon, with a minor advantage of 6-12.5% (like the original concept for engineers), and again only the pledges of the Power that controlled the system could buy the finest most expensive versions.

Wouldn't the ability to fight for a system with the reward that your Power got an improved faction ship or weapon add to the game? Also, why the craven attempts by factions to police their pledges? If you have Power stuff after you are no longer a pledge you could be chased by npcs until you sell or lose it, if the first bounty hunter fails they could send a better one until ex-pledges are being chased by several ships in a wing?

Powerplay 2.0 will only be better if it is devoted to the gameplay of the commanders who support the Powers, rather than being a second version of the collect-the-set-of-special-weapons game that Powerplay seems to have been designed as.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

It would be utterly trivial to bash out a quote or even a paragraph for each leader and pipe it through the weekly 'you have money to claim' message, or have it as station news in the capitals.

Once, yes. Twice, yes. Every week it would need work to make it not get rapidly stale, including probably a series of background side-plots for them to sometimes have opinions on and sometimes not care about. Sure, a "we did well this week, pledges" or "ouch!" message would be easy - though anything strategically-oriented would risk clashes between the leader and the player organisers, which would need more than "bash out a quick quote" in terms of thinking. Doing the whole thing properly and having a fully-integrated set of stories across Powerplay, CGs, Galnet, Aliens, BGS, etc. which responded in a sensible way to player activity would I think be a full-time job for a professional writer. (Plus side dev-time for any in-game assets or mechanics needed to implement)

I think they should spend that money anyway but between the people saying they
- should fix all the bugs
- should implement all the new features
- should deepen all the existing features
I'm not hopeful that it's going to be high on the priorities compared to hiring extra devs/QA.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Once, yes. Twice, yes. Every week it would need work to make it not get rapidly stale, including probably a series of background side-plots for them to sometimes have opinions on and sometimes not care about. Sure, a "we did well this week, pledges" or "ouch!" message would be easy - though anything strategically-oriented would risk clashes between the leader and the player organisers, which would need more than "bash out a quick quote" in terms of thinking. Doing the whole thing properly and having a fully-integrated set of stories across Powerplay, CGs, Galnet, Aliens, BGS, etc. which responded in a sensible way to player activity would I think be a full-time job for a professional writer. (Plus side dev-time for any in-game assets or mechanics needed to implement)

I think they should spend that money anyway but between the people saying they
- should fix all the bugs
- should implement all the new features
- should deepen all the existing features
I'm not hopeful that it's going to be high on the priorities compared to hiring extra devs/QA.

I have to disagree with you. I managed writing loads of Utopian / generic stories (about 2 a week when I was motivated) based on the 100 words of lore we were given and the rules we were allowed to operate in. Right now huge amounts of player written stories exist in game, buried by the procedural newsfeeds. As an example, I did a 6 part mini story arc for Utopia that you could follow, and started another before the system changed. And there was a whole community writing as well.

You highlight what should have been going on to begin with: having a professional writer. Elite Dangerous has a whole galaxy to fill up, and frankly it has no personality at all. Without flavour, without lore or background nothing ties EDs bits together. PP has no relation to the rest of the galaxy because its silent lore wise.

Even if you had one or two leaders in the news a week it would be better. Right now we get one original story per week. We also get a generic CG news story and about 3 procedural feeds (top 10....).

This is no way to keep EDs galaxy vibrant. Several player writers have given up or post very little now and thats sad. Its equally sad that the writing community in ED dried up (and because of this stories that are published never get widely read).