Newcomer / Intro If you think the game will get easier later, think again. I really think I'm done with it:(

[Jenner]

Yes, these threads tend to degenerate quickly. So far so good in this one - I've seen worse. Keep it on topic and helpful, and as always, if you have nothing constructive to add then just move along.

PSA over. Right on, Commanders.

 

[Manticore]

Yes, these threads tend to degenerate quickly. So far so good in this one - I've seen worse. Keep it on topic and helpful, and as always, if you have nothing constructive to add then just move along.

PSA over. Right on, Commanders.

Thanks for the heads-up. Just to stray off-topic briefly:

Battletech and Mechwarrior universe games are some of my all-time favourites (and the Elites of course!).

Clan Wolf rules!

 

[CapitanAceRimmer]

I tried one of these missions in a Python and got my     kicked just like the guy here, although I managed to escape. I abandoned the mission in the end as the NPCs were just too powerful.

Try planetary salvage, it is much easier, the NPCs aren't as powerful and they don'tattack you very often. Driving the SRV is great fun and the view can be spectacular. The rewards are just as high, I got one for just over a million credits the other week (they were allied to me). The only thing to be wary of in these missions is the pirate NPCs are always clean so you can't attack them until they attack you.

Oh and I think the Python is fine as a combat ship but you have to learn to FA off to use it. I believe that since 2.1 the NPCs have become harder and unfortunately you now need engineered equipment to get the playing field back to how it was.

 

[Alex D]

I am looking at various replies in this thread and one thing came to my mind (more from a perspective of someone having some experience with various space sims games).
Certain mechanics or game design may be considered broken, only if there is no way to overcome/beat this mechanics and achieve the goal.
If you're using wrong tool for a job, you have inadequate skills or applying wrong technique - the mechanics is not broken.
Even things you can't do alone (aka you need a wingman) are not broken - they are just designed the way to require certain conditions to be filled, in order to achieve goal.
Some non-planned stuff that exists in the game, that gives you unfair advantage over the environment (or other players), is a broken mechanics.

Also - who said that any space sims games are meant to be fair?
They are supposed to be tough, challenging and demanding - otherwise they would quickly become boring.
That's especially important in a sandbox type of games, without the "end goals", others than the ones you set yourself.

 

[mistohise]

I can see where the OP is coming from with this. Since recent-ish updates, the AI combat ability was turned up (first way too much and then down a bit and whatever, but, ultimately, there's harder AI now than there was in day 1.) Some people love that, and that's fine.

But there's a problem. I've played Elite since gamma, and I've not reset the save since general release. So over many, many, hours of play time, my combat rating has gone up. I'm not a combat pilot really, I work with trade and community goals, combat is basically an afterthought for me or something to do when ship movement comes in and I can finally collect my FAS from wherever I left it without having to pootle over there myself. But, even despite my relative lack of combat involvement, my ranking puts me at something like Expert or Master (I can't remember exactly because it's been a while since I logged on and checked.) My ranking is nothing to do with my combat skill or lack thereof, it's a factor of my play time.

Up until recent(ish) changes, this really didn't matter for toffee. An Elite NPC conda would happily sit and spin around and let you blast it, just the same as a harmless NPC conda, and the chances of meeting either were seemingly fairly random, perhaps biased towards the low end.

But now, an Elite NPC conda (for example, other ships exist) actually has a level of ability. That, and the NPCs have managed to figure out how wings work. The NPCs that you meet are also, it seems, scaled so that they much more closely match your existing rankings on average.

So, all of a sudden, a world that we could dot about in and not really have to concern ourselves too much with potential resistance has become that much more of a battle to exist in.

Some people love this. There's a school of thought that says that this is far more representative of the original Elite, too. And, of course, let's not forget the people who point out that the game is called Elite : Dangerous, as if that's meant to mean something about how hard the game should be. These are all points of view that hold merit to some extent or another.

But not everyone loves it. For some people, Elite the "space trading sim" should not be about whether we can hold off four NPC fighters in our trade vessels until we have time to high wake and then repeat the same experience by re-entering the system. No amount of being told to "git gud" or "wing up" or "fly something different" or "do something else" changes the fundamental fact that the game has become harder to do the same thing in.

It's a tricky one. Honestly, I play less now. Though I don't know if that's because of these changes or because I've been playing a lot of Hitman and don't have the time to play more than one game, or because I just got a bit burnt out after playing Elite a lot and taking part in a lot of CGs one after the other. But I imagine that [tales of] the increased difficulty along with some of my own experience of being pounced on by NPC wings had a little to do with it.

I would also fundamentally contest the assertion that a game "has to be tough", or, more specifically, that the toughness in Elite has to be presented by NPCs ragging on you. For some people, the challenge is in finding the best profit / ton, or discovering a lucrative mission run, or just exploring the bubble to see what's there, and high-level interdiction is not part of that fun or part of that challenge, it's a detriment to it. It's fundamentally at odds with the game's strapline of "play your way" if you just can't.

 

[Chris Simon]

Your problem is that if you don't want to do combat, you shouldn't have done combat.

Combat ranking is raised ONLY by combat (contrary to other rankings that can be raised by multiple ways), that means that you did enough combat to go up the ranks but didn't increase your skill in the process.

How is that a game's fault?

 

[mistohise]

Your problem is that if you don't want to do combat, you shouldn't have done combat.

Combat ranking is raised ONLY by combat (contrary to other rankings that can be raised by multiple ways), that means that you did enough combat to go up the ranks but didn't increase your skill in the process.

How is that a game's fault?

Looks like you didn't read what I said.

My skill level has little or less to do with anything. The NPC skill level suddenly increased. So, for the exact same every other variable, there are now presented more skillful opponents. That would seem to me to be entirely the game's "fault".

Also, many apologies for not reading the bit in the manual where it said "Warning: Never engage in any combat in this game if you don't want it to suddenly be made harder at some random point in the future.".

 

[[VR] Zakk]

I did a similar mission last night. Collect 3 data containers, I find the mission target, jump in, scoop the first container - and 4 high-ranked NPCs jump on my C-rated ASPx out of nowhere and open fire faster than I could identify them.

I survived. And successfully completed the mission.

I had finished scooping the 2nd container, which I was about to when I got attacked. Then I gave 4 pips to Sys and 2 to ENG, and ran. And while running, I left a mine field behind me.

My ASPx is equipped with 4 mine launchers. I have 3 fire groups:
1: lasers + mine launchers A&B
2: lasers + mine launchers C&D
3: lasers + mine launchers A&B&C&D

Fire group 3 allows me launch 4 mines at once. The attackers got me down to some 40%, but no more. Which was the closest I got to getting killed in quite a while. And I fly missions all the time.

The problem was indeed that I was supposed to pick up 3 containers, and only had 2. And of course, I did not find the debris field anymore.

So I got back into SC, hoping for the mission target to appear again. It took a while, but it did. I jumped back in, scooped the third container, returned to base and cashed in the mission reward and a nice bounty for killing 4 NPCs.

Now, I'm not saying that these combats are survivable in general, or that anybody who gets killed is doing something wrong. Maybe when I reach the next combat rank, or get the next bigger ship, will not be able to survive with the same strategy anymore.

But if there is one thing I learned about ED, then it's that I have to adjust my strategies every once in a while. So far, I always found one that kept me alive. And seeing that there are quite a few players with highest ranks, biggest ships, and billions of CR, it looks like there will be suitable strategies, even when I progress further.

Now, if this requires playing the game in a way I don't want it to play, then I can understand how people would get frustrated. But I still would not call the game "broken".

 

[Chris Simon]

Looks like you didn't read what I said.

My skill level has little or less to do with anything. The NPC skill level suddenly increased. So, for the exact same every other variable, there are now presented more skillful opponents. That would seem to me to be entirely the game's "fault".

Also, many apologies for not reading the bit in the manual where it said "Warning: Never engage in any combat in this game if you don't want it to suddenly be made harder at some random point in the future.".

I read it, but I think you didn't understand what combat ranking means in Elite. If you rank up, you will meet stronger enemies. That's just how it works and it works well in all games. The problem is when you start ranking up and don't get better at fighting and/or don't improve your ship in the process. If your current combat skill was on par with your current combat rank, you wouldn't have any problems.

The argument that NPCs were easier, before 2.1 isn't really an argument. There was some small improvement in their logic, but if you didn't exploit their previous bugs (like the spin of death), you'd know that they are NOT harder to defeat than before. They do fewer mistakes, yes. And they actually fire back at you.
If you gained your rank by killing endlessly spinning opponents that don't attack or defend themselves, then yes, I can see why you have problems, now.

I still don't see how anyone can blame the game of this, though.

And as a side note, your skill has EVERYTHING to do with it. It's Elite. Skill is 80% of the success.

 

[aRJay]

The difficulty is not with the being jumped by a wing of powerfully armed ships that know what they are doing, several posters including the OP have done that. Nor is it in dealing with a skilled Anaconda interdicting you, much advice has been given in this thread and the forum of the ways to survive that.

The difficulty is, after surviving with noticeable damage to your ship and next to no shield at best, in dealing with the interdiction with your ship in that state, all the advice assumes that your ship starts out with full shields and everything working.

 

[Chris Simon]

The difficulty is not with the being jumped by a wing of powerfully armed ships that know what they are doing, several posters including the OP have done that. Nor is it in dealing with a skilled Anaconda interdicting you, much advice has been given in this thread and the forum of the ways to survive that.

The difficulty is, after surviving with noticeable damage to your ship and next to no shield at best, in dealing with the interdiction with your ship in that state, all the advice assumes that your ship starts out with full shields and everything working.

That is true, but then the advice is the same, again. Don't do salvage missions and don't stack missions if your ship can't handle multiple consecutive fights. *shruggs*

 

[Glock_N_Load]

Okay. Fair enough.

So, just for everybody else, who might experience the same issue, I'll leave several points lying here. Free for grabs.

1) What other game gets easier as you progress. More importantly, what game would WANT to do that. One of the points of the game is to present a challenge. Without things to overcome, the game becomes dull and stagnates in gameplay which is boring. You suffered something I started to call "A Robigo syndrome". If you progress through the game faster than you should (and faster than your skill is growing) You'll run into problems. Stepping up into the big ships game requires both mental readiness and that of a bank account. Big ships present big opportunities, but also big risk and potentially big losses. Big ships also attract a lot of attention.
That there isn't a bug or badly designed mechanic. It works very well for rooting out people not ready for it.
That's why so many people are asking support to reset their ranks. They stepped into a level they are not prepared for.

Blazing your own trail is nice and shiny, but too much freedom can lead to a disaster. By your own fault. The game does what it says on the box.

2) It has been said too many times, already, during the past weeks, but I'll repeat it, nonetheless.
Missions are dangerous. How dangerous they are is written in their description. If you think you can't handle whatever the game throws at you at that given level of dangerousness, don't accept it. The fact that you did that kind of mission several times and nothing happened doesn't mean anything. It is, again, a base mechanic of the game that stuff happens randomly. Randomly, but within the rails YOU chose to follow when you accepted the mission.

3) "I'm in the A-rated Python, and..." is used as an argument against the game's difficulty way too often. Python is a trading ship. And armed transport, to be precise, but still the fact that she has five big guns, doesn't make her a combat ship, not does it make her any kind of universal ruler. Python is a ship in which you can trade a tad bit safer than in Lacons. But that's it.

4) Combat is not fair by default. There are no recorded occurrences of perfectly even ships, piloted by perfectly even pilots, equipped with perfectly even weapons. In a fight, you either have the upper hand, or you don't. The outcome depends on your judgement, not the fairness of the fight.

I hope you will come in terms with the Elite, one day. Until then, good luck in 21st century and o7, commander.

Right on CMDR. There were a lot of CMDRs that sat in CZ killing off the backs of the police to drive up their rank and credits. Now that FD tied that rank to the NPC - ow my[hotas]

 

[D.G.Cerberus]

Right on CMDR. There were a lot of CMDRs that sat in CZ killing off the backs of the police to drive up their rank and credits. Now that FD tied that rank to the NPC - ow my[hotas]

Right on indeed.

I still don't quite get the RNG though. I just pulled 42m Cr of stacked missions and not a single CONTACT let alone interdiction. I almost wondered if I was alone in the Galaxy.......

 

[Chris Simon]

Right on CMDR. There were a lot of CMDRs that sat in CZ killing off the backs of the police to drive up their rank and credits. Now that FD tied that rank to the NPC - ow my[hotas]

Exactly my point. People cry about broken mechanics, but they fail to see that it was broken BEFORE, when they could murder NPCs by thousands. Now it works and they are finding out that shooting at moving target is much more complicated.

Right on indeed.

I still don't quite get the RNG though. I just pulled 42m Cr of stacked missions and not a single CONTACT let alone interdiction. I almost wondered if I was alone in the Galaxy.......

I actually have the same "problem" I do stack mission. I get interdicted maybe once, twice a day. Actually when I was trying to make that clip about using mines, I posted here, somewhere, it took me two hours of waiting with five missions and a 100T of cargo on board befre someone decided to interdict me.
I really think there is something else going on and these people are doing something terribly wrong, but I wasn't able to decipher it, yet...

 

[D.G.Cerberus]

The difficulty is not with the being jumped by a wing of powerfully armed ships that know what they are doing, several posters including the OP have done that. Nor is it in dealing with a skilled Anaconda interdicting you, much advice has been given in this thread and the forum of the ways to survive that.

The difficulty is, after surviving with noticeable damage to your ship and next to no shield at best, in dealing with the interdiction with your ship in that state, all the advice assumes that your ship starts out with full shields and everything working.

Imho this is catered for by setting your limits realistically.
If you are going to max yourself to the point of zero shields and 30% hull in combat then you had best prepare a decent exit strategy (of the high wake variety). Personally I utilise a speed bump on when my shields go to 1 ring, juxtaposed with state of enemy/ enemies. If I know I can complete without going to full regen then carry on. If not, discretion can be the better part of valour. Leave. Fight again another day. Particularly if you have mission cargo.

Common sense, no?

 

[Glock_N_Load]

What ever happened to low wake out and drop quickly to give time to plan high wake , let shields build, repair ...etc. I use to do that but haven't in a while. Does it still work?

 

[Chris Simon]

What ever happened to low wake out and drop quickly to give time to plan high wake , let shields build, repair ...etc. I use to do that but haven't in a while. Does it still work?

It kind of does. But the NPCs are much smarter, now. If you low-wake and then drop before they reappear in SC, it works like a charm.
But if they see you dropping, again, there is a good chance they will follow. It still gives you some time to plot the route, though. So I'd say it still works.

 

[Gator Country]

I'm pretty late to this NPC discussion party, and I just want to make sure I have the basic chain of events correct before I jump in and start spouting off about things I know nothing about. I'm honestly not trying to start an argument here.

From my understanding, prior to the 1.6/2.1 release, NPCs were overall quite easy to kill, and some players complained about the lack of a challenge. So with the 1.6/2.1 release, FD made some tweaks to the NPC AI to make them smarter and tougher to kill, and in the case of 2.1 (Engineers) they inadvertently(?) gave NPCs access to uber-powered engineered weapons which were capable of practically one-shotting even commanders who were proficient at combat. This caused another round of complaints, and FD responded by removing NPC access to engineered weapons while retaining their better AI, with the possibility that their access to engineered weapons will become available again in 2.2 in some limited fashion.

Is that about right? Thanks!

 

[Chris Simon]

I'm pretty late to this NPC discussion party, and I just want to make sure I have the basic chain of events correct before I jump in and start spouting off about things I know nothing about. I'm honestly not trying to start an argument here.

From my understanding, prior to the 1.6/2.1 release, NPCs were overall quite easy to kill, and some players complained about the lack of a challenge. So with the 1.6/2.1 release, FD made some tweaks to the NPC AI to make them smarter and tougher to kill, and in the case of 2.1 (Engineers) they inadvertently(?) gave NPCs access to uber-powered engineered weapons which were capable of practically one-shotting even commanders who were proficient at combat. This caused another round of complaints, and FD responded by removing NPC access to engineered weapons while retaining their better AI, with the possibility that their access to engineered weapons will become available again in 2.2 in some limited fashion.

Is that about right? Thanks!

It is about right. Except the first part. NPCs weren't that much easier before 2.1, but the behaviour was full of bugs. In 2.1.03 they are as Frontier wanted them to be, AI-wise. Engineered weapons are a matter of debate.

 

[D.G.Cerberus]

Exactly my point. People cry about broken mechanics, but they fail to see that it was broken BEFORE, when they could murder NPCs by thousands. Now it works and they are finding out that shooting at moving target is much more complicated.



I actually have the same "problem" I do stack mission. I get interdicted maybe once, twice a day. Actually when I was trying to make that clip about using mines, I posted here, somewhere, it took me two hours of waiting with five missions and a 100T of cargo on board befre someone decided to interdict me.
I really think there is something else going on and these people are doing something terribly wrong, but I wasn't able to decipher it, yet...

I get the same feeling myself - I mean, exaggeration on the forums is known but surely they can't all be doing it?!?! So I find myself in the same scenario. Are we just two lucky RNG individuals? Is it something to do with the ships we are flying and our combat ranks? Or is there a missing piece of information such as PP/ Bounties etc that keeps getting missed off the aggrieved forumites experiencing this serial interdiction.

PS. Oh happy days. Was just interdicted. By (weirdly) the lowest ranked NPC I have ever had recently. I think he was competent. And in a FAS.

But something is amiss: I submitted as usual, checked contact to ensure no wings of doom and henceforth deployed weapons. He is Clean. Then my PDs start shooting his missiles. He is still clean (??) finally he gets a hit on me with a laser or whatever, becomes wanted and I open up and destroy him. (for 200Cr)

I have a video if anyone disbelieves me.....but still confused as to why a clean NPC interdicts me, and then none of the usual "fabulous" banter.....you know, the Greenhorn and boil you up sort of stuff........very strange.