You're sort of missing the motivation. Growing a PVP population is difficult when the risks to loss and the barriers to entry are high. MMOs get this, and create a variety of matchmaking strategies, incentives (like skins based on achievement in PVP) to encourage players to give it a try.
Ignoring or harming PvP in game design is contributing to ganking
- Thread starter Hole in Head
- Start date
The notion that PP is THE PvP feature of the game came about when FD were considering oopp and the changes we see in C&P. While the discussion over oopp was ongoing, FD added a PvP disclaimer to pp along with exempting proper pp from C&P. That's as close to pp as PvP as we have ever gotten. And, that happened well after the 'Rise to Power' event, arguably pp's peak. Rise to Power was a decidedly PvE event if you recall.
PP was not introduced as a PvP feature. There was no mention of pp's relationship to PvP at it's inception. All of that was an attempt at re-branding the flagging feature (most everyone had the modules they wanted by then.) to mollify the PvP crowd. The idea has not been pursued since, while measures to ignore PvP were strengthened in the interim. The point being, E|D allows for PvP but doesn't feature it. That's the truth of the situation.
PP was not introduced as a PvP feature. There was no mention of pp's relationship to PvP at it's inception. All of that was an attempt at re-branding the flagging feature (most everyone had the modules they wanted by then.) to mollify the PvP crowd. The idea has not been pursued since, while measures to ignore PvP were strengthened in the interim. The point being, E|D allows for PvP but doesn't feature it. That's the truth of the situation.
Okay I see what you mean, though I do not get the same message out of what he is saying as you are. I do not think that his intention is to get people who are not interested in PvP or even playing with others to get into open mode.
A ship built for anything but PvP has no chance in PvP.
So someone who wants to PvP has all the cards, and wants powerless targets. Generally. Not always, but the vast majority of the time.
Which is why they get mad when their targets grab the power to leave, by logging or playing solo.
The problem is that PvP is NOT generally a prefered gameplay loop for many players. It's not popular, and for many, not even worth playing the game for. PvP is boring. It's you insta kill your target or you get insta killed. No real fighting, just the purist form of slaughter. No incentive will ever get me to play open. C&P completely reworked from scratch would be a better start. Because you can make a 1,000,000,000,000% bonus for exploration payout or any other payout and you'll just make me never go back to open ever again, forever just out of principle
Except if the mode is not designed to be inherently PvP, changes to make it inherently PvP are contrary to the design intent of the mode.
You want Powerplay to be a PvP focused mode, but it isn't and changing it just to satisfy you would make the game worse for a lot of other people (you can tell who they are, they're the ones that log off when you try and gank them).
But it was an interaction that only one party wanted. If the person being attacked wanted PvP they wouldn't have logged and blocked the attacker. So it's just a griefer getting blocked from griefing, so sad.
Except as you've already admitted, Powerplay is not an interaction with rivals, that's just what you want it to be. It's a competition but that doesn't require direct interaction.
Also, even if it was all-Open-all-the-time Powerplay would still need to work without direct player interaction, because a freak psychic storm might make literally every player on Xbox pledge to Zachary Hudson and every player on any other platform pledge to Aisling Duval tomorrow, and Powerplay would still be required to work even though there is literally no possibility that any rival players can ever meet each other again.
Which rather implies that those strong PvP elements were not actually what was intended...
Except it doesn't, those aren't inherently PvP features, they're competitive features that don't require direct interaction.
But it isn't that because it exists in all other modes and cross platform, where none of those things exist.
Right, but Powerplay is a mode which is designed to work in all modes, and is designed to work for solo players, whether in the solo mode or not. So "a need for real time team tactics" is not actually a desired part of the design. And "opportunistic PvP" is just a euphemism for griefing.
This is not true. Most of my ships are not built for PvP but will stand a chance in many encounters and being able to get away from an attack 99% of the time.
'Many' is not 'all'- its a case of providing a broad amount of features that appeal to as many people as possible. You have 1:1 CQC, the main game for general play, BGS for multi mode tasks which leaves Powerplay caught in limbo- what is it for? Its a five year old dinosaur in the space age that needs a purpose.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Powerplay offers a higher tier conflict opportunity, i.e. bigger than Factions and some control over where the Power will expand (in a much less opaque way than the BGS does).
NPCs don't break the fourth wall and the challenge posed by them is set by the game, not players.
I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about the majority of the reasons why players get annoyed at the fact that they get to lose potentially everything while PvP goes unchecked in the same regard. Ganker gets blown up? He don't care because he's in a cheap throwaway ship while his target has to pay up rebuy, lose cargo and take a hit to his mission giver's rep. The ganker? Nothing is lost. Worst case scenario is that he has an excuse to take a break for an hour while waiting for the stupid as frick noteriety system timer
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Quoted the wrong post?
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
It wasn't that PvP was being particularly rewarded - just that exploitable loopholes were found in particular aspects of the game when players interacted while engaging in them.
I want Powerplay in open at this moment to actually have some consequence to it, otherwise its a PvE Open proxy in all but name.
Like I said above, right now I want Open players to act like Open in Powerplay, otherwise whats the point of being in Open? Chat is pan modal, you have wings and large groups in PG, why is Open for? If it can be anything more than its a waste, when having Open wars is actually fun when they happen.
Powerplay needs a reason to exist outside of the BGS' shadow. Powerplay is played by less than 1000 players (going by counting merit drops and observing discord activity) and is really on the edge of oblivion; its why 5C is so disproportionately strong as the general population is small.
But Powerplay allows killing, you gain a measly merit these days but its tacit acknowledgement its condoned. By blocking in Powerplay in Open, you are breaking that mode for the person who is attacking while you suffer nothing.
You seem to miss what I'm saying: currently if I catch you in Open in Powerplay and you are a rival pledge that should result in PvP because that is what the mode allows, but Powerplay (being confrontational) should go further and make being in a double gated feature actually mean something. Otherwise, its a case of being in a grind race, which has proved to be so popular over the years.
They were excellent but lacked a property that took into account intention- on its own it was exploitable and was toned down since collusion piracy was the go to tool for controlled turmoils early on.
Well, they are- they are suited to rapid identification, totally different from the obfuscated BGS system which is ground up multi mode. Its impossible to link cause and effect in the BGS (i.e. you never really know who did what) whereas its very easy to link cause and effect in real time in Powerplay. Its easy to link progress to players in expansions or preparations. Simply seeing someone with one of two cargo is enough to know what they are doing, unlike the BGS which is much more complex.
But they are there in the first place, along with the initial strong piracy, cargo stealing. All it required was FD to update PP in a timely way, rather than revert to type and leave it half finished (collapse for example, Powerplay bobbleheads and decals, improved gameplay mechanics of any kind).
It barely works in all modes: deliveries are 100% effective in solo due to no NPC pushback (i.e. mission scale NPCs can't replicate player moves), PGs allow AFK turretboats for huge merit totals almost risk free. Only Open promises any dimension of play beyond being able to do something faster. By stretching Powerplay over everything you gain all the flaws but none of their strengths.
People want a reason for attacks. they want context- well, you have it here. It also generates roles for support, defence, patrol via interference, breaks the shieldless T-9 / paper shield Cutter delivery meta. None of that is possible in solo currently, and never will unless EDO rewrites the lot.
At a core level Powerplay offers a pre 3.x BGS open ended massacre mission / CZ hybrid and an open ended cargo run. In the face of the 3.X BGS with varied missions, new enemies, true open ended possibilities there is no comparison.
Well, they do tell you "keep your nose clean" and go away if you are totally clean, and lay into you if you have any PP bounty or cargo / merits.
At least then you can be pledged but a 'non- combatant' of sorts- so if you are active then the game 'gets real' while if you are waiting for 4 weeks you are background noise.
Which are easily pluggable if FD bothered to update Powerplay- I thought up a system in about an hour, FD have had five years and 100+ staff.
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For all my arguments against getting people into open, it would appear that having a device for people who are already in OPEN, who want to PvP with a reason, is not an unreasonable request.
Football hooligans (And I’m really not saying PvPers are thugs) just wanted a fight but they needed a device to do so, they chose the idea of rival football clubs. No doubt some Mods and Rockers were in a similar position.
I simply do not know enough about PP to say if it should be OPEN only, having said that, my only experience with PP was to join a couple of the sides to get the modules exclusively available to those certain ‘gangs’. I could see no other benefit, as an exclusively SOLO player, in remaining with those sides once I’d got what I wanted.
So from a purely personal perspective, unless I’m missing something, as long as the modules were available to me by some other means, I can’t see what is wrong with the PP framework being OPEN only.
Do any exclusively SOLO players spend much time with it other than to get modules?
Football hooligans (And I’m really not saying PvPers are thugs) just wanted a fight but they needed a device to do so, they chose the idea of rival football clubs. No doubt some Mods and Rockers were in a similar position.
I simply do not know enough about PP to say if it should be OPEN only, having said that, my only experience with PP was to join a couple of the sides to get the modules exclusively available to those certain ‘gangs’. I could see no other benefit, as an exclusively SOLO player, in remaining with those sides once I’d got what I wanted.
So from a purely personal perspective, unless I’m missing something, as long as the modules were available to me by some other means, I can’t see what is wrong with the PP framework being OPEN only.
Do any exclusively SOLO players spend much time with it other than to get modules?
Right, but what you've also done is confused what you want with the way the game is supposed to work. You've decided that your specifically desired interaction is what everyone should be interested in and that's what the game should force them to have.
Open is a primarily PvE game. Yes, even in powerplay. You wanting it to be otherwise doesn't make it otherwise.
Protip inescapable griefing is not going to make it more popular. I suspect people do BGS more than Powerplay because it's small scale and local and easy to make a personal connection to, even outside of player factions (eg. turning the wheel). Powerplay is big and amorphous.
Open allows killing at all times outside of explicit no fire zones (no, bounties/notoriety don't dissuade it at all). That doesn't mean it's an inherently PvP game mode because most people don't ever do any PvP and don't want to. Again, Powerplay is a PvE competitive race game mode which is also affected by PvP. Trying to pretend that because PvP has an effect it means it is a completely inherently PvP mode and that all players in it are all interested in PvP is leaping so far to conclusions you landed in Colonia.
Allows != Requires. All open allows PvP at any time, that doesn't mean that everyone playing it in is interested in doing PvP. Powerplay is not an opt-in to PvP, it is not supposed to be an opt-in to PvP and you wanting it doesn't make it so.
Your problem with the other modes appears to be that it works too well in them not that it barely works. That rather indicates that it's not supposed to be PvP.
I rather suspect that most people don't actually want to be attacked. That's why they log off and block people when it happens.
Powerplay needs to work for solo players, some of those solo players are in the open game mode, so generating group play roles is out of scope for the mode.
And how is Powerplay supposed to work? Even FD don't know- it took them 5 cycles to admit collapse was not in, and that the 3 cycles in the bottom 3 (and mandatory expansion) was a giant pork pie- FD have cut features and added nothing in return. Its languished with no direction while it rots from the inside out. Ever since its been released its struggled to find an audience because it pleases exactly no-one- these days its either dwindling die hards that actually play it or module shoppers. Quite often its the module shoppers moaning and the people who engage with the game shouted down.
And as you forget, Powerplay is two halves- the first, PvE is generic across modes. The second part, delivery and modification by PvP, is absent in two modes but present in the third. However that itself is kneecapped because you can block and log, so that threat is rendered toothless.
Powerplay is a team game at heart, and with post 1.3 multiplayer structures allows for actual supportive wing based teamplay when it happens, having Open now with a Powerplay clause would not force people to change anything, it would just make that mode actually something different. In Powerplay, you don't abandon people if danger is about, and would create a place for proper PvP, however slight that would be with real consequences. However that team game is crushed into one dimension with little chance of creativity or spontaneity with solo, and made into a factory in PG. FD pulled CGs because they thought they were dull and oversued, well, PP has a CG for every control system you run, each week every week- thats a pile of work with no redeeming features.
People play the BGS more because its actually a feature that rewards by playing the whole game as you like, rather than having the same two things to do ad infinitum. Each PP delivery the same 50 keypresses, to the point botting was used. Without anything actually happening people wonder what actually happens since the playable area of the bubble is full and moves have become trench warfare for weeks, sometimes months on end, all the time small abandoned powers are sock puppeted so the real enemy fights for free. It does not help FD not actually having a PP manual in the game like everything else, or updating the mega old HTML version.
As I keep on saying PP is two halves, gathering and delivering. Gathering is PvE, the delivery in Open is PvP (unlike PG or solo) as you actually face opponents who can intelligently attack and are not restricted by no-fire zones or NPC limitations brought about via persistence. Its why I'm puzzled that, with solo and PG available, Open still has blocking for pledges. If you don't want to be shot at, use a mode that suits your taste rather than distort one that allows it.
Then what distinction is there between modes if they all behave the same? Powerplay is adversarial, and yet in a mode that allows it, its still subject to blocking and logging. If you want extra challenge that should be the place for it.
After years of leading a power, being part of several discords, running reddits I know full well how grind races work. I also know how disheartening it is having to outgrind a faceless enemy, as well as outgrind and outvote 5C. I know how hard it is to try and compete with bots who work tirelessly, or when a PG group shamelessly AFKs 300,000 combat merits when you are like, actually pressing buttons and playing. But because Powerplay is tied to everything its easy to exploit each modes weaknesses leaving a choice of doing the same, burning yourself out competing the old fashioned way or stopping playing.
Open does not solve all of that, but it at least offers unpredictable encounters and makes the most of basic mechanics (rather than making it painfully obvious there is little PvE variety to be had). Even if FD tweak the Open rules for Powerplay now it would be a good move.
You'd be surprised. The Open Powerplay conflicts I've been party showed me how much deeper the feature can be. At a conceptual and actual level it gives more than it takes away. The biggest driver in PP is not the threat of violence but the need for efficiency. Currently its easy to support massive empires because every delivery is near 100% guaranteed because solo and PG is threat free. So while an Open PP won't be totally PvP, PvP acts as a meaningful brake and alternative to simply grinding more- and Powers do not always grind at all the same time, so allowing PvP also provides an avenue to properly disrupt and attack, making for more opportunities for turmoil and powers losing systems.
Powerplay needs to change one way or the other, its numbers are so low with abandoned powers it needs to work, and it needs to be done as efficiently as possible. I know its not cool to talk about polls from people like OA, but it says something when the interest in Open only or even weighted was about five times as large as the current population who engage fully with Powerplay (from 7.7K respondents v <1K estimated Powerplay pledges) Although some would leave if the change happened, from the numbers I can see most people would shrug and carry on, and those who come in would easily outnumber those who left.
FD indicated the last proposal was the scope they were looking at (i.e. its not much at all), and within it the only new gameplay is Open, in effect making players NPCs. Now, if FD rework Powerplay from the ground up to work across modes then fantastic, job done. But so far all we know is whats been said 'is it', either in whole or in part- which without Open is condemning ever heavier grind races via mega UM and the added gameplay of voting for votes. That will kill Powerplay.
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