Ignoring or harming PvP in game design is contributing to ganking

[Alsteif]

The prey could get a lot of fun out of such an encounter as well: as a pirate I always try to engage in banter with the prey, and only steal a reasonable amount, probably 10 mins of mining.

And thats fine! Rp'ing is a very fun addition to the experience. Saddly, in my eyes at least:
- by trading/mining in open you become a gameplay element of someone, who will have fun stealing from you, will get some stuff in the process (the reward). The prey gets nothing.
Of course, both Players get to exoerience some pvp combat... But thats not a reward for taking part in a gameplay.
As a prey, you loose more than you gain.

 

[Robert Maynard]

... and we all know that 'get involved in PvP' does not equal 'fly in open'

Indeed - PvP can be found in either of the multi-player game modes.

Taken together the two statements might indicate that a quite significant portion of players in Open don't get involved in PvP either. The size of the galaxy facilitates that.

 

[CaptainPugwash]

And thats fine! Rp'ing is a very fun addition to the experience. Saddly, in my eyes at least:
- by trading/mining in open you become a gameplay element of someone, who will have fun stealing from you, will get some stuff in the process (the reward). The prey gets nothing.
Of course, both Players get to exoerience some pvp combat... But thats not a reward for taking part in a gameplay.
As a prey, you loose more than you gain.

You assume that the prey always loses: PvP piracy is not so easy and I have 'lost' many an encounter with well prepared traders/miners

 

[Robert Maynard]

The prey could get a lot of fun out of such an encounter as well: as a pirate I always try to engage in banter with the prey, and only steal a reasonable amount, probably 10 mins of mining.

The "prey" has no idea how the encounter is going to go and whether the attacker is simply toying with them.

Taking fun from a pirate leaching cargo might be for some, I doubt it's fun for all.

 

[Alsteif]

You assume that the prey always loses: PvP piracy is not so easy and I have 'lost' many an encounter with well prepared traders/miners

And that is what i mean.
If someone wind against a pirate, he gets nothing out of it.
There is no reward for being exposed to many risks of playing in open (lets be honest, playing against npc's has no risk).
But the pirate is rewarded when he wins against his prey. He gets all the loot.

 

[CaptainPugwash]

The "prey" has no idea how the encounter is going to go and whether the attacker is simply toying with them.

Taking fun from a pirate leaching cargo might be for some, I doubt it's fun for all.

It comes down to what you want and what you call 'fun' sure, I have had great fun in my T9 playing cat and mouse with the pirates.

 

[Morbad]

How then one can engineer ship (if playing only in open) if conveniently located engineering places are full of trigger happy psychos?

By being patient or at least vaguely competent at escape and evasion.

Of all the Engineer systems, only Deciat is likely to be populated with hostiles at any given time and rarely will hostiles be the only other CMDRs in the system. All you need to do is reach Felicity once with your one unit of meta alloy and stack of materials/data. You rank up to max, pin your long range FSD BP, and never have to go back.

Most of the other Engineers are pretty safe.

 

[CaptainPugwash]

And that is what i mean.
If someone wind against a pirate, he gets nothing out of it.
There is no reward for being exposed to many risks of playing in open (lets be honest, playing against npc's has no risk).
But the pirate is rewarded when he wins against his prey. He gets all the loot.

Why do you play the game? For fun or just to accumulate in-game credits? Some of my most fun experiences have been while avoiding the piracy bloccade to deliver my cargo: for me fun = win.

 

[Alsteif]

Why do you play the game? For fun or just to accumulate in-game credits? Some of my most fun experiences have been while avoiding the piracy bloccade to deliver my cargo: for me fun = win.

To have fun, obviously.
But getting in-game credits doesn't mean not having fun! Calculating the best ways to get credits, is part of the fun for me ^ ^. As are interactions with other players, obviously. But yes - to some (myself included) - credits are at least a part of the reward in the game. A goal, of sorts.

If open had more reasons in terms of rewards for the risk taken, for players to join, it would bring players to open. Wouldn't it be funnier? We would have more players who prepare their ships while going to open - because they have a goal in mind. We would have more happy players, who don't get angry when getting ganked/pirated, because they understand, that while this time they failed and the pirate won, they can try again and this time score a reward they wouldn't be able to get in solo/pg.
Wouldn't that be fun?

And i do not mean to say, that right now you can't have fun in the game, while pirating or being the prey.
I am just saying my point on the matter and what could be changed to make it funnier for more people.

 

[CaptainPugwash]

To have fun, obviously.
But getting in-game credits doesn't mean not having fun! Calculating the best ways to get credits, is part of the fun for me ^ ^. As are interactions with other players, obviously. But yes - to some (myself included) - credits are at least a part of the reward in the game. A goal, of sorts.

If open had more reasons in terms of rewards for the risk taken, for players to join, it would bring players to open. Wouldn't it be funnier? We would have more players who prepare their ships while going to open - because they have a goal in mind. We would have more happy players, who don't get angry when getting ganked/pirated, because they understand, that while this time they failed and the pirate won, they can try again and this time score a reward they wouldn't be able to get in solo/pg.
Wouldn't that be fun?

And i do not mean to say, that right now you can't have fun in the game, while pirating or being the prey.
I am just saying my point on the matter and what could be changed to make it funnier for more people.

What if there was a rebalancing to the C&P system so that low sec trade routes gave much higher profits compared to the high sec routes. In a high sec route you could still be ganked but it would be a rare event indeed as the perpetrator would be followed all over the galaxy by the ATR. The added risk/profit tradeoff to trading could make it a lot more fun ..

 

[Alsteif]

What if there was a rebalancing to the C&P system so that low sec trade routes gave much higher profits compared to the high sec routes. In a high sec route you could still be ganked but it would be a rare event indeed as the perpetrator would be followed all over the galaxy by the ATR. The added risk/profit tradeoff to trading could make it a lot more fun ..

Exactly! What i meant with all my posts today, was that as a prey, except for the sheer beautifull, great, fantastic experience of loosing/winning against the pirate... you get nothing.
And that makes people avoid open. Some will of course go to play in open, just because after those 1k hours, Elite gets pretty boring xd (Can atest to that). So why not make it, that there is an actuall reason to tak on the risk of getting ganked/pirated?

No one can say, that being a pirate or a ganker is bad in Elite. It's a part of the game! But the prey has to have something out of it as well. There has to be an incentive for more people to enjoy pvp.

Your idea would be great. So would be open-only cg's. Or better prices in open. Or anything else, really. A good, balanced reason for players to learn how to pvp and do so.

 

[Rubbernuke]

That's True. The reason, as to why People die is Because they spec their ships for mining, etc. You, get less if you, do t have x-equpiment. But then, they mostly Also, go to solo or PG, cuz there they fan get away, with it.
People would build better ships for open and would Also, fly in open, if the risk was Worth it, right?

Possibly, it depends on what the motivation is for a player. Some just want to get as much money as possible, others want to 'live' in the galaxy and deal with whatever comes.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I agree of course that plenty can be done just by adjusting a few weights and balances within the current structure. The only tricky one might be the persistent ATR that hunts you down.

I would love to see a global bounty board as well ..

Thats the other side to it- killing is not wrong. All 'solutions' need to be balanced and that skill can mitigate them.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Of course going into engineering systems and getting ganked enough times gives option to block most those lulz shooters. There is after all limited number of them. Making open much more reasonable place for player.

In the wild (i.e. away from features like Powerplay) I'd agree that blocking is generally fine, the issue I find is that players definitions of 'fine' and ' not fine' are elastic. My personal preference is for hard rules set by the game, rather than the a la carte way ED does it- because when peoples rules mix and clash, it causes problems.

 

[Alsteif]

Possibly, it depends on what the motivation is for a player. Some just want to get as much money as possible, others want to 'live' in the galaxy and deal with whatever comes.

Of course! What we need is to have something that will let both sides enjoy the content.
Let's be honest.
One person can fly in open all the time, enjoying the fact that they "are in a living galaxy, where they can die any second!".
And then there are players, who see this game as a game and don't care about that.
And neither aproach is bad. Nor should we demand one group to play like the other. It's impossible and unfair to tell one group, that they are playing incorectly. Elite is at least partially, a sandbox. You can play however you want.
But while making content for the game, you have to make content for both groups. You can't just destroy solo and pg's, and tell everyone to go play in open.
And you can't just destroy open and tell everyone to play in solo/pg's.

YOu can fine-tune some parts of the gameplay to fit both groups though.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Not evwryone will have the time or means to wait for the other person to log off.
And asking for help Also requires time. And trust that that person who is supposed to help you, won't Kill you. Also, its impossible to ask, for help in game. You can of course go to a discord, etc... But can you See how much of a Brother that, becomes? For someone with Little time it May be a problem.

The thing is, what is ED in the end? Its supposed to be small fry learning to live in a big pond, however EDs early game (and other players) are the only times when this is actually true. The stark reality is that its an illusion to think you can go anywhere in anything at any time- sometimes its a matter of waiting, or luck.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Of course! What we need is to have something that will let both sides enjoy the content.
Let's be honest.
One person can fly in open all the time, enjoying the fact that they "are in a living galaxy, where they can die any second!".
And then there are players, who see this game as a game and don't care about that.
And neither aproach is bad. Nor should we demand one group to play like the other. It's impossible and unfair to tell one group, that they are playing incorectly. Elite is at least partially, a sandbox. You can play however you want.
But while making content for the game, you have to make content for both groups. You can't just destroy solo and pg's, and tell everyone to go play in open.
And you can't just destroy open and tell everyone to play in solo/pg's.

YOu can fine-tune some parts of the gameplay to fit both groups though.

The problem from what you say though is that it flies in the face of what FD describe ED as, ED is either cut throat or not.

 

[Stelar 7]

The thing is, what is ED in the end? Its supposed to be small fry learning to live in a big pond, however EDs early game (and other players) are the only times when this is actually true. The stark reality is that its an illusion to think you can go anywhere in anything at any time- sometimes its a matter of waiting, or luck.

Nah, it's one of the Elite pilots federation commanders making their way in the galaxy.

The small fry don't have CMDR titles.

As for danger it's all arround, individuals vary on ability to deal with the constant NPC threats and can mitigate to varying degrees that ever present threat.

Some people may choose to add players to the list of things to have to mitigate the risk from. No one is obligated to make that choice.

 

[Sir Ganksalot]

If you mean the Gnosis incident I guess you mean, that was awesome too. I went along knowing that the jump would fail and there would be Thargoids, just for a 0.01% chance of discovering a Thargoid home system. Playing a rat leaving the sinking ship was great fun. After that I RPd being lost and adrift in space for a bit and had a look at the Orion nebula.

Yeah but the way they did it was so lame and poorly executed. If they would've had it do the jump, then get attacked by Thargoids and be disabled, leaving players stranded till they got it back up and running again, it would've been a masterpiece of an event. Instead, Thargoids showed up and players just scattered.

I'm glad to hear you were able to still make a positive RP scenario out of the situation though.

 

[Alsteif]

The problem from what you say though is that it flies in the face of what FD describe ED as, ED is either cut throat or not.

Is it though?
Does Fdev describe Elite as such a game? I would say that Fdev doesn't do so at all. And that is kinda a problem..
Since they want to make a game for everyone, thus everyone has to suffer.