Imperial Slaves - A Proposition

[furiouslog]

I genuinely don't get your point. How can something like slave trading in a video game hurt certain demographics of consumers? If someone can't differentiate between reality and video games they should not be playing video games. Are you talking about consumers who have some kind of mental condition? If not, I genuinely can't see why anyone would be negatively affected/insulted by slave trading in a video game, especially when it is literally just text - a name of a commodity.

Demographics is probably the wrong word. Cohort is more accurate. If you go back and read elsewhere, I've already argued why the very fact that it's a text thing without emotion or meaningful consequence is part of the problem.

 

[Daniel Klimchuk]

I find it offensive.

And? I find the fact that Elite Dangerous Odyssey costs money offensive. Should they make it free so I don't feel offended? Anyone can be offended by anything, there's nothing anyone can really do about it.

 

[Florenus]

Demographics is probably the wrong word. Cohort is more accurate. If you go back and read elsewhere, I've already argued why the very fact that it's a text thing without emotion or meaningful consequence is part of the problem.

So let's push for meaningfull consequences instead of removing it.

 

[furiouslog]

I've read the updated OP and here's the thing:
I would actually enjoy this kind of "operation" (series of CGs) to eradicate slavery from the galaxy. It would give me something to do, something to rally against.
But at the same time I would not like it to succeed completely, because it would simply remove main driving force of my character.
Before starting to play ED I've created a character for myself and part of his backstory was that he is a child of insolvent Imperial Citizens, who ended up being Imperial Slaves and therefore became separated, while he ended up in something resembling orphanage. He hates slavery with all his heart and fights against it. When deciding what to do in game I always take that into account, which means I know what factions to support and which one to fight against, etc.

But that's just me - removing "evil" and "nefarious" aspect from the game will only make it shallower. If I want to play something like Animal Crossing, where everything is cute and cuddly I do just that. I prefer games with options though.

I argued this already: if the point of the game were slavery, I would not be on this forum, because I would not be playing the game. The point is to fly spaceships. To provide an extreme example, it would be like buying Overwatch expecting hero-based PVP, and then finding out that the game is actually a Hitler simulator.

My new proposed solution would not alter your character's backstory in any way. If anything, it would enrich that experience because there is an possible and satisfying endgame to the story arc.

 

[Sensei Jacksama]

I find it offensive.

I find censorship offensive

 

[Daniel Klimchuk]

Demographics is probably the wrong word. Cohort is more accurate. If you go back and read elsewhere, I've already argued why the very fact that it's a text thing without emotion or meaningful consequence is part of the problem.

I fully support expansion of slave trading gameplay, with options to liberate slaves and all that, but what I don't get is why someone would be offended by a name of a commodity in a video game. How would having richer slave-related gameplay make the concept of slavery in the game any less offensive to the "cohort" you talk of? And while we're at it, who's part of this "cohort"?

 

[thelion]

I find it offensive.

Who Bally cares what you find offensive, what what

If it was that offensive, you would not play the game.

I would really like to make this point now and with fervour,

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO PLAY THE GAME, old bean

I would certainly not engage in something that got my blood boiling. If you do not like it, stay away.

The above is not a personal attack.

You just seem hell bent in finding something to attack because you had some training?

Moderator message
I am not attacking the OP, I am attacking the proposition that because something IRL is bad, it must be bad in the game.

That's it by jingo, One shall not engage in this thread anymore.

Toodly pipsky and Bally stiff upper lips old beans, what what

 

[furiouslog]

So let's push for meaningfull consequences instead of removing it.

I disagree, but if this actually happens, you'll have the opportunity to fight for the slavers to preserve your fantasy.

If the consequences were meaningful enough, no one would end up doing it anyway, rendering it useless as a game mechanic unless you are a slavery fetishist who wants to fantasize about trading humans as a commodity. I would hope that is not the developer's intent, because that is monstrous. If it's useless, why even have it in the first place since all it has the capacity to do is offend people?

 

[Daniel Klimchuk]

I argued this already: if the point of the game were slavery, I would not be on this forum, because I would not be playing the game. The point is to fly spaceships. To provide an extreme example, it would be like buying Overwatch expecting hero-based PVP, and then finding out that the game is actually a Hitler simulator.

But slave trading in this game is completely optional. If you don't like it, simply don't buy/sell the commodity with that name.

My new proposed solution would not alter your character's backstory in any way. If anything, it would enrich that experience because there is an possible and satisfying endgame to the story arc.

I get it now, you find it offensive that you can't do anything about the slaves in the game?

Again the main flaw in your argument is that you're associating slavery in a pixel universe to actual slavery in the real world. I don't get how removing slavery from this game will make real world slavery any less offensive.

 

[Sensei Jacksama]

I disagree, but if this actually happens, you'll have the opportunity to fight for the slavers to preserve your fantasy.

This is why I don't think you actually understand how imperial slavery works in this game.

If it's useless, why even have it in the first place since all it has the capacity to do is offend people?

Because I feed them to Thargoids is why.

 

[furiouslog]

Who Bally cares what you find offensive, what what

If it was that offensive, you would not play the game.

I would really like to make this point now and with fervour,

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO PLAY THE GAME, old bean

I would certainly not engage in something that got my blood boiling. If you do not like it, stay away.

The above is not a personal attack.

You just seem hell bent in finding something to attack because you had some training?

Moderator message
I am not attacking the OP, I am attacking the proposition that because something IRL is bad, it must be bad in the game.

That's it by jingo, One shall not engage in this thread anymore.

Toodly pipsky and Bally stiff upper lips old beans, what what

Frontier cares what I think. They care about one in 5 million, but it's still caring. As a consumer, I can provide feedback to the producer of a product I purchased given that there is a feedback loop to offer suggestions. One option is to not play. Another option is to preserve my enjoyment of the game and continue playing it by suggesting actions to be taken that would address my dissatisfaction.

You suggest I go away and do something else. Let's say that I offer the same advice. You could also just ignore me and not even post in this thread. Why are you even replying if you don't care about my opinions? Just go do something else with your time.

Does that feel like a satisfactory option to you? Given that you have been crossposting new threads containing multiple alternative suggestions meant to bait me in some way, I'd think not. Your actions are inconsistent with your advice, which sort of undermines the credibility of those ideas. At any rate, if you have something to say about the idea or the content, chime in. I think I've proven that I am a decent listener and can evolve in response to feedback.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Again the main flaw in your argument is that you're associating slavery in a pixel universe to actual slavery in the real world. I don't get how removing slavery from this game will make real world slavery any less offensive.

In a nutshell...
Worse, is that history today has slavery in the past (throughout known history, and mentioned over 2,000 years ago) and the liklihood of it continuing an equal length of time into the future, given human nature, is pretty much a given. (modern slavery exists today, in our 'civilised' world, and nothing seems to be able to actually bring it to an end)

It takes all kinds to make up our RL world - and now RL needs to impinge on a fantasy setting

 

[furiouslog]

And? I find the fact that Elite Dangerous Odyssey costs money offensive. Should they make it free so I don't feel offended? Anyone can be offended by anything, there's nothing anyone can really do about it.

That strikes me as untrue. Do you honestly believe that companies who invest time and resources to produce goods should not be compensated for that work, and that this idea is offensive to you?

 

[Florenus]

My new proposed solution would not alter your character's backstory in any way. If anything, it would enrich that experience because there is an possible and satisfying endgame to the story arc.

There's no finishing story arcs in MMO.
I play as slavery figher and I don't plan, or want to stop.
And even if I did, I might want to roleplay evil ba$tard who deals in human trafficking on my next playthrough.

 

[Daniel Klimchuk]

That strikes me as untrue. Do you honestly believe that companies who invest time and resources to produce goods should not be compensated for that work, and that this idea is offensive to you?

I don't care. It's offensive and I want it changed. I also demand that "Dangerous Discussion" be renamed to something that sounds less threatening, because it makes me feel unsafe.

I know it's only text, but nevertheless I find it offensive and want it changed.

 

[furiouslog]

But slave trading in this game is completely optional. If you don't like it, simply don't buy/sell the commodity with that name.

I get it now, you find it offensive that you can't do anything about the slaves in the game?

Again the main flaw in your argument is that you're associating slavery in a pixel universe to actual slavery in the real world. I don't get how removing slavery from this game will make real world slavery any less offensive.

You are oddly twisting my point. I never said that changing the game will change the real world, but I did say that the implementation of slavery in the game has the potential to change how players think about it. Again, I've already covered all of this.

 

[furiouslog]

I don't care. It's offensive and I want it changed. I also demand that "Dangerous Discussion" be renamed to something that sounds less threatening, because it makes me feel unsafe.

I know it's only text, but nevertheless I find it offensive and want it changed.

I now see that I can't really engage with you, and this is just plain trollbait.

 

[VR jefranklin18]

It's been a while since there's been a "having slaves in this game is sick" thread so congrats to the OP for starting one up.

There have been "slaves" in Elite version since 1984 and it is unlikely to change now. The games have always been about determining your own moral compass, and that extends from murder and drug smuggling to slave trading. The fun fact is though, it is only a game and anyone get offended by the presence of them in game probably shouldn't be exploring some of the deeper aspects of ED lore. Nobody is being murdered, people are not being enslaved and psychotic bug-like insects are not about to kill off swathes of mankind.

But feel free to keep up the moral crusade and censoring our fragile minds, because we really can't tell the difference between game and reality.

 

[Daniel Klimchuk]

I now see that I can't really engage with you, and this is just plain trollbait.

Excuse me? I find the word "troll" offensive and would kindly ask you not to use it. Thank you.

I did say that the implementation of slavery in the game has the potential to change how players think about it.

How so? There's a commodity called "Beer" as well. Does the fact that it exists in-game mean that the game is encouraging alcoholism? Most people are capable of differentiating between real life and video games, and their views on an issue in real life should not be affected by the same issue being portrayed in a game.

 

[Rubbernuke]

2. You: "It's just a game". Me: That is a circular argument that either renders slavery personally important to you or meaningless, so either change it (since it's meaningless) or recognize that slavery is a necessary part of the enjoyment of your immersive fantasy and we disagree on the core focus of the game.

Slavery and its effects, and how factions, powers and superpowers view each other though this would have to change, and take away important nuances. Its one part of how meaningless human life is in ED- thats part of its horror- in the end its all numbers and indifference.

3. You: "Go play something else". Me: No, I'm providing consumer feedback to the developers, which I am permitted to do.

You are entitled to your opinion, but don't expect your view to be automatically right, or welcomed within the context of the game.

4. You: "It's a dark and dystopian future". Me: I know, but where do we draw the line at observing something dark and actually pretending to be dark when video games have shown to alter behavior and thought patterns. https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2015/08/violent-video-games Since there are few slavery games, we have yet to see a linkage between pretending to be a slave trader and human empathy, but maybe we will know more in a few years. It would be great if you guys could volunteer for the study.

I'll have to forget about forty years of sci fi in comic, computer / video game / film / radio play format that deals with the same issues then too. So far I'm doing OK, I haven't sold anyone just yet. I doubt in five years time I'm going to be running about with a net catching people and eating them since I'm actually sane. I also doubt young players in 84 Elite or its sequels have been converted into slave traders either.

6. You: "So you support drug dealing and murder?" Me: No, but it's part of the cartoon violence that I expect as part of the game, and it's broadly acceptable that if you're in a space combat simulator, that's the focus. Those issues are also universal and not socially charged. Slavery is part of a painful shared heritage that has cultural meaning for millions of potential consumers and the way the game treats it degrades it.

There are plenty of groups today having been displaced, persecuted, systemically killed and starved in the world, and that the BGS does all that too. You might as well remove the BGS in that case since most BGS players routinely crush entire planets into submission and not even blink. Are they sick as well for intentionally starving/ murdering billions into doing what they want and forcibly toppling governments, or is that 'cartoon violence'? Is a BGS faction bar any different to a string label and a number?

The funny thing about the comments about slavery being a fact of life, and the proposition that I am being unrealistic, is that it presupposes that there are no inspirational leaders, no heroes, no revolutionaries who step up and stop it. That is also unrealistic, as we have also learned from history. If a major superpower institutionalized slavery today, there would be global outrage. The media would assault that nation. There would be severe economic sanctions, isolation, and probably war over the issue. But 1300 years from now, nope, it's still a thing, and no one can do anything about it.

How do we know society won't regress in the future, WH40K style? Hell, there are countries today that get away with murder / slavery and worse simply because they have the power to ignore you, what happens if they establish themselves as the global normal? I thought this is what sci fi is about, to make you think about these 'what ifs'?

I instead propose to Frontier that, in the fullness of time (and perhaps in conjunction with a Post-Odyssey release (that will likely correct mistakes and rebalance the inevitable unintended chaos) that they mount a realistic and long-term campaign through a series of linked CGs and accompanying Galnet releases (appropriately depicting the suffering of the victims of slavery in the Elite universe that engenders something approaching empathy) that pits a well positioned revolutionary leader (I'm thinking Aisling?) against the remaining slaver powers and factions. The intent is to place them into economic chaos and use the leverage to force them to stop trading in slaves. Goals could be associated with the acquisition of assets that would enable our protagonist (or antagonist if you support slavery) to steal the underlying technology used to develop the power play modules provided by slaver organizations, and offer those as the top 75% rewards for the CGs (perhaps with some engineering augment as well in order to provide an incentive to people who already have them) to those who support the protagonist's agenda. The antagonist offers the vanilla module, but also some extra credits, thereby preserving the debate intention of Elite's design.

There could be a sequence of CGs required, starting with data acquisition (submitting settlement data packages), then materials (to support the cause and build modules), and then combat (to force the institutional slave traders into a position where they are forced to negotiate but without completely undermining the power play mechanics in the galaxy), with the module being the final reward to anyone who participated in any of the three at an appropriate level. If all are successfully completed, that power would stop trading slaves, and the practice would become illegal and not appear as a commodity at a station in their controlled systems any longer. Then, this sequence could be repeated until broadly institutionalized slavery is wiped from the galaxy.

So lets have a stacked load of CGs, biased Galnet and the rest to enact your agenda? No thanks. By all means have ways to free slaves though.