News Important Community Update (01/03)

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False expectations with ED are usually user error.

Mmmm....?????

And what about Multicrew???? They said it was going to be very good with multiple professions and we ended with a stupid 3rd person camera. Whats so exciting about that. Where's the engineer role?
They keep saying of exciting new features in every update and its always a fiasco.

Wings, Powerplay, CQC (OMG I remember this so well, designed specifically for attracting consoles), Thargoids, guardians, multicrew. Every expansion was so badly developed that it hurts thinking about that.

But you're right in one thing, we the community should never expect a good expansion for Elite so we will never be disappointed again.
 
You picked out my button thing why?
Button gate...lol
You seem almost...angry at my dream game dream. DREAM (it's likely not going to happen).
I love the idea, you don't it seems..meh! ��♂️
So you are a 'ship only' preferrer I'm guessing? Also, Meh! ��♂️...
The majority of the post was about co-op game play and giving reason for space legs...and you bring up my buttons lol.

Mabye, rather than just trolling the dream, make the effort to type what you would like instead. And bug fixes and unbreaking things you think are broken doesn't count. That's hardly worthy of 2020 now is it...


Honestly...sheesh!
What we often see with "space legs" (WASD) folks is, won't it be great to walk around your ship, won't it be great to walk around a station, just imagine repairing your ship, just imaging walking into a bar and getting missions...

What we don't typically see is the much effort/thought to suggest any mechanics to make "walking around" actually worth while. Hence why I highlighted this very point in your your suggestion where your only mechanics seemed to be "press buttons"...

Space legs IMHO could come into two very different guises:-
1) A smaller development literally just being able to walk around, for example your ship, and maybe planetary surfaces. I suspect after a few weeks the novelty will wear thin, and apart from the odd screenshot, it would hardly be used. Think Multicrew!
2) A large development to allow a first person experience within the game, along with a lot of gameplay. This currently scares me because, (a) FD seemed to have struggled over the past 3-5yrs to bolt on meaningful involved gameplay even to the existing core game, so opening up a new Eastern front would risk them simply create a whole new list of rather thin/shallow mechanics now for WASD. (b) The sheer amount of development work that could be required that then deflect effort from the core game.


And in the meantime, the core game is (still) crying out for more involved and deeper mechanics. Development effort needs to be spent there! Consider how shallow our combat scenarios are for example. 25+yrs ago I could undertake more involved and interesting combat gameplay in X-Wing than I can today in ED. Why is that? Especially when there's development time to throw at the likes of CQC, Multicrew, Generation Ships, Engineering V1 & V2, Thargoid and Guardian bases which generally just sit there collecting dust, etc.

Considering how shallow the Thargoid invasion is - Why isn't this utilising a Powerplay type view to show the position of the Thargoids along with offering tasks to affect it. And these tasks could range from far more involved combat related scenarios (such as above), to fighter based gameplay with us holo-meing into fighters at capital ships (had CQC be ploughed into the core game) to defend/attack assets, to stealth based scouting missions using silent/cold running through asteroid fields to gain information on the Thargoid position etc...

Consider how shallow piracy is. Why isn't there's a piracy related reputation that can be improved allowing you to gain access to more and more nefarious locations etc.

Consider how shallow PvP is. Why aren't there OPEN on CGs to offer and orcherstrate more involved and easy to find PvP. Why isn't Powerplay orchestrating specific tasks between opposing Powers to orchestrate PvP?

etc...

OR we could discuss a huge development effort being implemented to create a whole new area of gameplay, risking another whole new list of shallow gameplay elements (eg: pushing buttons).




Here's a post I made a year ago on this sort of topic, and covering similar matter to what I've mentioned above. ie: How there just seems to have been a lack of push from FD to actually move the gameplay depth and mechanics forwards in ED - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...-bored-in-ED?p=6601186&viewfull=1#post6601186

If someone has asked me where I envisaged the game would be by now, I would have imagined:-
  1. Nice involved combat scenarios such as escorting/attacking cargo ships or passengers ships in normal flight from Nav Beacon A to B. Or to protect/attack a VIP ship being repaired. Or to protect/attack a platform/asteroid base. And had full station blockade mechanics whereby you exit SC further out and have a significant travel distance to a station through any forces enforcing the blockade.
  2. I'd have envisaged doing (1) either in our current ships or within dedicated fighter ships (ie: CQC in the core game).
  3. I'd have envisaged doing (1) & (2) either with a Wing of friends or with NPCs which you could give simple commands to (attack this, defend that, patrol here).
  4. I'd even have envisaged doing (1), (2) and (3) in OPEN potentially against other CMDRs say within Powerplay as part of some task, or as part of a CG.
  5. I'd have envisaged doing (1), (2) and (3) as part of any Thargoid Invasion.
  6. I'd have envisaged having mining where the mechanics were more involved so in some cases a location has stateful resorces that depleted as mined until gone forever. [Note: And the latest update has delivered a somewhat unbalanced/half-baked effort at this]
  7. I'd have envisaged having salvaging for example using physics to cut, push, pull sections around to create some interesting gameplay mechanics.
  8. I'd have envisaged cold/silent running to actually have gameplay purpose. Nefarious activities to get to locations, pick up passengers or cargo, scan assets, all without being spotted.
  9. I'd have envisaged having exploration involve more mechanics by now such as micro-managing exploration drones and having lots lots lots more exploration assets to witness (eg: storms, aurora, common envelopes, comets).
  10. I'd certainly have envisaged any Thargoid invasion being an ongoing battle with fronts you could affect via stealth scan gameplay, coordinated attacks and defense, trying to break Thargiod blockades of stations and signing up to tours of duty in fighters to protect convoys or capital ships. And to see the actual invasion onfold for example as a Powerplay type asset.
I would NOT have imagined:-
  1. Most of the core gameplay would still be the same as at release (or soon after).
  2. So much development effort would go on questionable outcomes:-
    • CQC - Standalone rather than development effort for the core game. Then collects dust.
    • Powerplay - Rather half cocked attempt. For most CMDRs collects dust.
    • Generation Ships - Point click destraction or an hour or so. Then collect dust.
    • Asteroid Bases - Nothing to do with offering deeper gameplay for pirates, but instead just reskinned stations.
    • Engineers - A needless upper teir of performance which creates balancing issues for both PvE and PvP.
    • Guardians Bases - Are a destraction for an hour or so. Then collect dust.
    • Thargoid Bases - Are a destraction for an hour or so. Then collect dust.
    • Passenger Missions - Shallow warm cargo gameplay. No real depth to passenger element of them.
    • Multicrew - Basically a totally ill considered development still born by the lack of investment in gameplay depth and mechanics for years before. Collecting dust.
    • Thargoid Invasion - As per Multicrew... Due to a lack of investment in core gameplay content and depth, there's little for this Invasion to leverage to make much of it.
Shall we continue?

For me the game has basically sat on its hands for years now, with most development being at best mediocre, and at worst a total waste of time.​

So personally when I see people suggesting most likely throwing a significant development effort at WASD, and even after four years, so much of the core gameplay is still shallow and not seemingly being pushed forwards, I find it worrying.

^ Does that help you understand my point of view? ;)

ps: Now while WASD will of course add immersion, I see little value personally to that again, unless the development expense is small.



EDIT:

I rest my case:-
when you look at the DW2 expedition it would be great to get out of your ship and meet other expedition members in a bar.
More cinematic's in game like the commander chronicles I would like to that to
 
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when you look at the DW2 expedition it would be great to get out of your ship and meet other expedition members in a bar.
More cinematic's in game like the commander chronicles I would like to that to
 
I will admit that the visions in the art book of "Space legs" looked interesting. Manually repairing your ship in the void... looks cool. But, it'd be a quick-time mini-game (most likely) and so after the first time, or second, would be moaned about until it was replaced with the FSS.

Then, being a backer of Star Citizen, I got a feeling for what legs could really be. And, once again, it's kinda cool the first few times. Then you realise how much faff is involved in getting to your ship, and it's actually quite annoying.

I have always loved Elite and the idea of being able to walk around has never really entered my head (in reality). I mean, the ships BEG to be explored, and the stations with all those twinkling lights - can you imagine what's going on in there? Wow...

But all of that is pointless to me. Elite has never been about that, and I doubt FDev would put the effort in if there's no logical addition to gameplay.

What SC did do well is the idea of finding a wreck in space, and entering it for some swag - and then being set on by enemies (or just having it be spooky). THAT I could get on board with. Limited EVA. The sound team are already first class, and I think I'd be scared witless of navigating a smoking capital ship for some Guardian samples that they found, and someone didn't want them to have....

So, I've no doubt there are reasons. But there are also so many reasons it shouldn't come to the game next year - most of those, for me, centre around Atmospherics, QoL and honestly, content. More stuff to find, more mysteries, more of the notable phenomina and so on. That stuff is why I play Elite, so I really hope we get more of it.

If legs comes along, so be it. I'll indulge. I was SO wrong about the Orerry, so what the hell do I know? :p
 
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Wise words.

As a person who'd love spacelegs even in its most "shallow" shape, I yet must say I totally agree with your point of view. In a perfect world, spacelegs for ED should be an hybrid between Arkane's Prey and Hellion: not "shooter" oriented. Yet I know it won't be, and maybe even shouldn't as it could be too much derivative from the main purpose: travel space in ships. In any case I don't want ED to become a commute sim faltering with ship piloting (as another "spacesim" in perpetual alpha tends to be).

And in the meantime, the core game is (still) crying out for more involved and deeper mechanics. Development effort needs to be spent there!
That's the depressing thing to me... Even with the best intentions, efforts and talent FDEV has, there will be complaints as always.
 
As a new arrival to the game, im still much at the "oh! this game is so great!" fase, but as a long time gamer (since 1984), around that, i have seen all sort of game genres, ive seen the rise and fall of some types of games, and ive seen the online games come and go, and taken lessons from them so what i am about to say comes from that experience, and what ive saw so far in this game.

At this moment im Elite in exploration, so ive been around in this about 2 months im in the game, ive traded, combated, ferry ppl around, took my byte in powerplay, engeeniering, etc.

This game as a solid good foundation, and i can only image the millions of code lines required to make this work, not to mention the "tech" side of stuff, and the need to be always mindfull of the range of specs the pcs and other platforms ppl use to log in and use the game, that is not easy in itself!

Now, it seens, the devs have taken an aproach to get stuff in the game as it was "real life", "real time", so if it takes months to come out something, or years, makes sense, in that regard, u dont want to use all the cards in one go, or else u have no content to offer afterwards for the game to continue...
That being said, this game, cause of the genre, space, has so much to offer and so many diferent ways to play it, that it can appeal to a big audience, and doesnt take that much to keep a game like this alive and kicking (player population wise).

But...

I feel, that the main problem i see here, is the sheer size of the play field, wich i love that it is what it is and how it is (explorer u know), but for the more casual player, the one that only does combat, or trade, may be overwelming, and even boring at times, and leaves a sense of wanting... (missing something)

The "base" is here, and its a good one, i think that what we need to spice things up, and that is my food for toughts, is that instead of focusing in adding stuff to the game, and delivering stuff that is technical challenging, frontier needs to regroup, and focus at least some ppl on the issue at hand, at least in my view, wich is "content", the kinda stuff that keeps ppl coming for more, expecting to achieve something and not stopping till they get it, that is the thing that keeps "costumers" returning and the game alive.

I would say, it doesnt take much to improve and make the game start to appeal more.
The news need a rework to be more appealing, we need to have a oficial radio or band that broadcast important stuff over the "waves" so we feel more immersed in it, the community goals is a good thing, but seens lacking... The background story, that is unfolding needs to be brought more to the front, and why not even start a generalized war between systems in wich combat pilots know that just jumping into that system is action asuered?

Add missions, not the ones at the stations atm, add a "enlistement" from the major powers, so ppl can have a "real" carreer in their navyes, add some background stories that will keep ppl envolved and on them for some time, open some areas of space that are closed for ages, add "easter eggs" on some planets, u could even add more wrecks and the ability and equipment to have a new ocupation in elite, the salvage...
So many stuff that can be done, and u dont even need to rewrite or add stuff, just use what u got, a small team of ppl could be putt on adding weekly new content, new missions, twick and expand the story of the game, change it to suit and meet the players expectations, give more concise clues to find and solve some misteries (stories).
U can go and get inspiration and ideas from old games that preceded or came after u, like privateer, all those lucas arts graphic adventures, u got an entire galaxy at your disposal, use it!
Set community goals that envolve giving more clues to find all the mega ships that were lost, clues for guardian sites and tech, add places where u can get equipment for free if u do a set of stuff, ppl love those, u can even go as far as adding a new race to the game, why not? That would definatly would spice the game considerably...
The Raxxa story, that one, u really need to improve and set clues that make sense so ppl can actually go about doing that one.


This game may be stagnated for some (sry bad english not native tong), but as so much potential and ways to grow and improve that its almost mind blowing to think what can be done.
 
What we often see with "space legs" (WASD) folks is, won't it be great to walk around your ship, won't it be great to walk around a station, just imagine repairing your ship, just imaging walking into a bar and getting missions...
There are not enough Rep points I can give for this post. It sums up my feeling about ED almost exactly.

I love the game, and I keep coming back to it because in VR it is stunning, but the gameplay is dull... dull... DULL...
They expend so much effort on what sounds like a good idea, and then it is poorly implemented and the developers walk away from it.
  • Powerplay - This could have been soooo good. A way for players to get involved in the politics of the game, to feel like you're making an impact on the universe. Instead it became yet another grind mechanic to move tokens from A to B in order to get rewards (either cash or tech). The mechanic was poorly thought out, the involvement of the player was almost zero and eventually it has been left to wither on the vine.
  • CQC - Seemed like a good idea - a way to interact with other players even when you are out in the black on a long exploration trip and feel the need for a little dog-fighting. Again, poorly implemented, the instancing was terrible and the uptake wasn't sufficient to make it worthwhile. Most of us played a few times, then got bored of waiting for it to find enough players to start a session, gave up and never went back. Again left to wither on the vine
  • Generation ships - What were these all about? It seems that these, Asteroid Bases etc. were basically a response to complaints about the lack of depth of gameplay available, but were essentially just a way of reskinning existing items to make us feel we'd got something new (like the 3 versions of the Alliance Challenger). Were they worth the development time they probably took? Not really as they add very little to the game
  • Engineers - Possibly the biggest time sink introduced to the game. Ridiculous "quests" to unlock reclusive engineers who essentially perform random upgrades to your systems in exchange for yet more grinding seeking materials to perform the upgrades. Version 2 engineering is certainly better than version 1, but surely if an engineer has build me a Grade 5 Enhanced Range, Lightweight 5A FSD for one ship, he should be able to build one for another ship that takes the same size of engine without having to go through every single bloody click to get there again... That's engineering. I've paid him/her to do all the research, supplied the materials, worked through the blueprint. It should be easily repeatable.
  • Multicrew - Don't even get me started on the stupidity of this... We all thought it would be great, a chance to meet up with friends and fly out together on the same ship, but rather than travel to the same station and meet up to do the crew thing (God forbid we don't pander to the instant gratification crew) they introduced this bizarre idea of telepresence. An idea even FDev can't seem to justify in their background materials. If you can telepresence 60,000 light years to be on the bridge of a friend's ship as they explore the other side of the Milky Way, why does telepresence to a fighter fail after 30 Km? And why do we have to physically transfer to an SRV rather than telepresence? In fact are we actually flying our ships at all, or are we just vegetating in a sensory deprivation tank somewhere whilst we interact with the universe via telepresence? If you're going to make ridiculous stuff up, the least you can do is try and be consistent with it...
  • Wings and Squadrons - another attempt to force players into Open mode and down a combat route. Yes I know there are wing related missions, but most can be done in a couple of trips by a lone pilot in a Cutter, and the instancing restrictions around wings and squadrons mean this will probably also go the way of so many other developments and wither on the vine

Basically FDev philosophy seems to be promise big, partially deliver, then walk away on the grounds that the playerbase is just not using the features, so they are not worth further development. Has it occurred to anyone at FDev that if you thought these things through and developed and implemented them properly then the playerbase would actually be using them?

As I said, I love this game. I've played all versions since 1984 on C64, Amiga and PC, and will continue playing it, but there is no game here... What we have is a wonderful universe to explore and essentially do nothing but enjoy the view.
 
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What SC did do well is the idea of finding a wreck in space, and entering it for some swag - and then being set on by enemies (or just having it be spooky). THAT I could get on board with. Limited EVA. The sound team are already first class, and I think I'd be scared witless of navigating a smoking capital ship for some Guardian samples that they found, and someone didn't want them to have....


This is exactly what i want from elite personally way more important than space legs... EVA and derelict boarding. I would imagine it would be simpler to implement as well. I need to install SC again. i have not tried it in the longest of times... but i find it hard to get excited with that due to no VR (FD take note.... what ever happens to the future of ED it MUST include VR support imo)
 

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This is exactly what i want from elite personally way more important than space legs... EVA and derelict boarding. I would imagine it would be simpler to implement as well. I need to install SC again. i have not tried it in the longest of times... but i find it hard to get excited with that due to no VR (FD take note.... what ever happens to the future of ED it MUST include VR support imo)

100% agree with all that Mike. David mentioned similar at the start and I've continued to hold out hope that one day it will be possible.
 
“As mentioned in our previous post, this new era will be paid for content and all lifetime expansion pass owners will have this included in their pass. ”

I’m good with that, I would also pay for it if it’s awesome great! There are some pretty bold statements in that news letter, like we would like to make Elite the BSSGE, however I truly believe that if anyone can pull it off it’s FD, my guestion is more, do they really really want to?

Time will tell, I’m looking forward to see what it will bring, but to achieve BSSGE, you at least wold need, spacelegs, EVAC, walk around in your ship mechanics, atmospheric planets you can land on, planetary surface mining, NPC crew, and Jonesy the cat.
 
This is exactly what i want from elite personally way more important than space legs... EVA and derelict boarding. I would imagine it would be simpler to implement as well. I need to install SC again. i have not tried it in the longest of times... but i find it hard to get excited with that due to no VR (FD take note.... what ever happens to the future of ED it MUST include VR support imo)

100% agree with all that Mike. David mentioned similar at the start and I've continued to hold out hope that one day it will be possible.

Exactly: spacelegs purpose should be to go and do things where we can't from the cockpit of a ship. And yes, EVA suits, 6DOF and low/high-g environments should be taken into account, not being wiped out of the scope by magic.
 
I rest my case:-

Rep good sir. I cannot agree more. FDev, do that lot, kthxbye.

Talking of X-Wing (and yes, I realise a somewhat "open" world hampers things a smidge), woudn't it be rather nice to take a mission to some far off system to deliver X or Y, or escort a tranport, and as you leave witch-space you drop straight to local space, no cruise, right in to the middle of a battle. Scripted? Sure - but hell, that'd be a great scenario (and no, we don't "choose" a side, we did that taking the mission!). Pew pew for sure, but immerse us!
 
This is exactly what i want from elite personally way more important than space legs... EVA and derelict boarding. I would imagine it would be simpler to implement as well. I need to install SC again. i have not tried it in the longest of times... but i find it hard to get excited with that due to no VR (FD take note.... what ever happens to the future of ED it MUST include VR support imo)

No VR, no Elite. Well alright, that's harsh - but I've bought headsets with ED in mind, and nothing else. ED IS VR.
 
Talking of X-Wing (and yes, I realise a somewhat "open" world hampers things a smidge), woudn't it be rather nice to take a mission to some far off system to deliver X or Y, or escort a tranport, and as you leave witch-space you drop straight to local space, no cruise, right in to the middle of a battle. Scripted? Sure - but hell, that'd be a great scenario (and no, we don't "choose" a side, we did that taking the mission!). Pew pew for sure, but immerse us!
I was thinking of that game the other day when Frontier announced their mysterious next franchise - XWing/Tie Fighter/Alliance using reskinned ED and SLFs. It’s pretty much there already with power allocation and the flight model, you’d just need the ability to angle the deflector screens.

I reckon you could shoe-horn in scripted single player fighter missions in ED by tying them to Naval career progression - when accepting the mission you can telepresence to a carrier before getting your pewpew on.
 
What we don't typically see is the much effort/thought to suggest any mechanics to make "walking around" actually worth while. Hence why I highlighted this very point in your your suggestion where your only mechanics seemed to be "press buttons"...


OR we could discuss a huge development effort being implemented to create a whole new area of gameplay, risking another whole new list of shallow gameplay elements (eg: pushing buttons).

For me the game has basically sat on its hands for years now, with most development being at best mediocre, and at worst a total waste of time.[/indent]

So personally when I see people suggesting most likely throwing a significant development effort at SD, and even after four years, so much of the core gameplay is still shallow and not seemingly being pushed forwards, I find it worrying.

^ Does that help you understand my point of view? ;)

ps: Now while WASD will of course add immersion, I see little value personally to that again :-

That's more like it...

I agree with everything you've said about E.D.'s lack of substantiality and development. I too would like your listed features and I'd imagine most would. And they should have been implemented long ago etc. I just don't think I'd feel it's enough for a 2020 feature set. Too similar but by all means as updates.

But they still are just slight expansions involving being glued to your chair with exception of being glued to the rovers chair.

You are also still saying my only mechanic is buttons.
The button part (the lesser of my post...fleeting even) was to have ownership and treat ship as safe home. To keep out enemy a.i. Or human players in my mind. To implement a gameplay of aliens/monsters at dungeons etc. Trying to attack you.
Also for the need to depressurise before leaving into a different atmosphere as a small element and several other possibilities of gameplay not specifically requiring that simple mechanic. You are misrepresenting or perhaps misunderstanding my reasons. I don't just want buttons for goodness sake.


I want solo or co-op space legs. I don't mind fps space legs depending on its structure.
 
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