Search for the distances for a couple of RL stars and compare them to their ED counterparts.
In system jumps.
- Thread starter LazyCalf
- Start date
Search for the distances for a couple of RL stars and compare them to their ED counterparts.
Could do that. But first you'd have to find out if Fd set the galaxy up as 1300 years in the future (taking into account stella drift,orbits,gravity wells etc etc ) or just the data they had currently and worked around that. (I'm guessing this as I cant see them doing the research and calculations for 1300 years of movement ). And second you'd have to pick the correct stars to check distance and stella drift and orbits to make sure that star isn't on the same path. As all stars don't get further away or closer. They are just orientated differently etc.
Only real way to know is if FD said either way or you got into the server and speed up time massively and watched the simulation.
To try and drag this thread back on topic...
This whole thread is about movement inside systems, not movement between systems. Did you read the OP?
Yes exactly. The orbital motion example demonstrated how scale could be communicated at system level without requiring the player to undergo long celestial-mimicking periods of temporal and experiential frigidity. And there are numerous techniques FDev leverage in this area. Your contention that 'only' traversal time can communicate vastness is demonstrable bunk.
I pointed out the hyperspace examples because they show you're already using a time-contraction system where a sense of scale is preserved.
Cool, we're all asking for more engaging additions. On that at least we can agree
On the vital and immutable role of emptiness, less so...
This whole thread is about movement inside systems, not movement between systems. Did you read the OP?
Yes exactly. The orbital motion example demonstrated how scale could be communicated at system level without requiring the player to undergo long celestial-mimicking periods of temporal and experiential frigidity. And there are numerous techniques FDev leverage in this area. Your contention that 'only' traversal time can communicate vastness is demonstrable bunk.
I pointed out the hyperspace examples because they show you're already using a time-contraction system where a sense of scale is preserved.
Cool, we're all asking for more engaging additions. On that at least we can agree
On the vital and immutable role of emptiness, less so...
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As Gangstarr says, let's get back to the program. Enough time has been spent with Sideshow Bob and the Bunfight. We've got buns aplenty now but we need meat.
I'd say the beginning of SC is kind of okay on system arrival; you can go scan the beacon if one exists, check out the initial system setup and get going. The end is fun with trying to get the most optimal or the most crazy-hot approach. Always room for improvement but the bookends aren't in bad shape really. It's the middle stretch that's the weakest link here. What ideas have we come up with that make the middle of supercruise more interesting? I've seen:
- micro jumps (probably my least fave, as this idea has real risk to actually remove the purpose of SC as a travel method without adding anything cool or skillful)
- an active-input FSD booster system that adds dynamism to SC speed and would rate at a medium risk, along with fuel and heat concerns (my personal fave, as per-ship SC speeds and accel rates should have been a thing since forever)
- a supertether which runs the risk of doing terrible things to you if you bork it out, and requires interdiction-style piloting the whole way
- deeper ship system interactivity so we can mess with things on and about the ship (spacelegs not required at this point, IDW wait till Soon)
- better USS interactivity; these things should be more defined without having to drop speed, course and target to scan them all. If they were mostly pre-scanned for the usual suspects (standard wrecks, convoy signals, etc) I think more people would check them out. As it is if you're already doing something else, most times you're not going to slow down to check out what ends up being the equivalent of a dead squirrel on the roadside. Then if there were still Unknown signals mixed in with the prescans, they would be more of a draw, as they'd then be a mystery item of potential value. At the least, an emergency signal should probably tell us that it is one.
I'd say the above ideas apart from microjumps could ALL be added and not conflict with each other or existing "slowboating", as that should stay the safest and most reliable method. I did see an idea in another thread to make the dropzones superfat, but that falls into the cutting-for-speed category and doesn't improve the middle of SC where it actually is boring. What else is on deck that improves the game without merely speeding it up or removing existing things?
I'd say the beginning of SC is kind of okay on system arrival; you can go scan the beacon if one exists, check out the initial system setup and get going. The end is fun with trying to get the most optimal or the most crazy-hot approach. Always room for improvement but the bookends aren't in bad shape really. It's the middle stretch that's the weakest link here. What ideas have we come up with that make the middle of supercruise more interesting? I've seen:
- micro jumps (probably my least fave, as this idea has real risk to actually remove the purpose of SC as a travel method without adding anything cool or skillful)
- an active-input FSD booster system that adds dynamism to SC speed and would rate at a medium risk, along with fuel and heat concerns (my personal fave, as per-ship SC speeds and accel rates should have been a thing since forever)
- a supertether which runs the risk of doing terrible things to you if you bork it out, and requires interdiction-style piloting the whole way
- deeper ship system interactivity so we can mess with things on and about the ship (spacelegs not required at this point, IDW wait till Soon)
- better USS interactivity; these things should be more defined without having to drop speed, course and target to scan them all. If they were mostly pre-scanned for the usual suspects (standard wrecks, convoy signals, etc) I think more people would check them out. As it is if you're already doing something else, most times you're not going to slow down to check out what ends up being the equivalent of a dead squirrel on the roadside. Then if there were still Unknown signals mixed in with the prescans, they would be more of a draw, as they'd then be a mystery item of potential value. At the least, an emergency signal should probably tell us that it is one.
I'd say the above ideas apart from microjumps could ALL be added and not conflict with each other or existing "slowboating", as that should stay the safest and most reliable method. I did see an idea in another thread to make the dropzones superfat, but that falls into the cutting-for-speed category and doesn't improve the middle of SC where it actually is boring. What else is on deck that improves the game without merely speeding it up or removing existing things?
A fine and welcome overview, thank you!
It shows that most people's interest isn't really in reducing transit time per se (instantaneous micro-jumps etc) but in techniques that increase content during transit. An important distinction
The stealth aspect is definitely a really interesting balance aspect.
(In my tether idea I went for clearly flagged transit & arrival for exactly those reasons, but having some kind of gradation would probably be superior. Probably more suited to the FSD-booster option, but perhaps having elongated tethers slow your approach, at the cost of more ongoing damage, could work. They could also allow you to path a less-expected route in. Alternatively extra-risky manouvers like riding the edge of the tether envelope or breaking through it entirely to leap at destinations could increase your visibility further!)
Oo, this is making me daydream about some kind of scoop-in-transit mechanism, like passing through magnetospheres full of plasma and using it as a resource instantaneously somehow. But that's probably a step too far
. (I just really wanna use magnetospheres & occasional internal plasma perils )
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I actually just posted a big long-winded piece in Golgot's thread which included some stuff about the naval-style combat potential of SC. There's room for deep gameplay with what feels like relatively simple changes. Gravity, speed and sensor range seem like they should be more related to stat alteration than too much new code.
Not that I don't want Golgot's Space Coaster of Death, because that looks like a great ride in of itself even if you might burn to a crisp or get sucked into witchspace or something. That should be a thing just to be a thing because it would be fun as hell. If that existed there would be pilots who would build their ships to do only that.
He did, and it is very very fine, so I'm going to repost it here
Aww man, tether envelope risks leading you to old school 'mis-jump' leaps into Tharg pocket territories would definitely be a risk multiplier!
(With maybe a bonus chance of ending up at a rogue planet instead, sitting lone, maybe black as pitch, and laden with evil lore. Gotta be worth the risk
)A fine and welcome overview, thank you!
It shows that most people's interest isn't really in reducing transit time per se (instantaneous micro-jumps etc) but in techniques that increase content during transit. An important distinction
The problem facing this issue is that travel is an unavoidable, integral and repetitive part of Elite Dangerous. Anything added to something that is already repetitive will also by definition be repetitive. For a lot of people, no matter how fun, which in and of itself is completely subjective, doing the same thing a lot of times, is going to end up boring them.
Que the "Why do I have to do the <insert any and all of the ideas in this thread here> over and over again just to get to do the stuff I really want to do" threads. The very nature of what is being talked about here is not solvable, and will only shift the specifics of what is being complained about.
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I'm essentially repeating myself here, but you're miscasting the problem as far as I can see. No one's complaining about the act of travel per se (although improvements are of course being mooted). They're complaining first and foremost about the content levels & technical challenge dropping off massively at key points in said travel.
Content will become repetitive, game mechanics will become repetitive. True. That's all fine and good and normal. But let's at least get some in there (into the 'geography chasm' of the inter-sun trek). (If we can improve upon the broader game content and mechanics in the process, so much the better. We can all get to deconstructing and criticising those additions after they're actually in
)EDIT: It's interesting to note that several solutions here are trying to leverage the existing variety contained within the proc gen planetary systems. This seems productive to me in that a huge amount of content variety is already sitting there partially untapped. If the right, deep, complementary mechanics can be found, then there could be a long lease of life in them.
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The problem in my opinion is not the repetition. I actually think the supercruise mechanic is great and it works well in circumstances where the time spent in it is less than 10 real time minutes. The trouble comes when you are in it for longer that, there is simply not enough gameplay happening, particularly if the system is already explored. I can see some interesting additions possible for exploration and how systems are scanned, but that is not going to solve anything when its explored. The other problem with adding gameplay is you extend the journey time. So what the gameplay needs to do is reduce the journey time. eg drop into a "navigation" USS, scan something eg a beacon and it gives you some sort of effect. Quicker acceleration into SC or higher top speed, mixture of the two. Sometimes the impact is marginal so you need to drop out again in an attempt to get more benefit. Maybe there is a scan mechanic so you can spot the best opportunity. If you tie this in with time delivery bonuses and make them tougher, you could increase the excitement. Maybe you add this to existing USS so players have the risk of the USS to contend with.
Streamlining & repackaging some of these arguments in their own thread would be great. I think there's a lot of potential in a fully argued variant of Frenotx's FSD injection reboot of SC. A world where it tallied with a tether 'leap' too, all bootstrapping current mechanics & content, would be grand
I'm no pro on the world of submarine warfare, but a few ideas that occur in fevered fashion are:
'Submarine Stealth' for a reworked SC of deep-space 'geography':
- Could some form of 'periscope payoff' be possible? IE a stealth mode whereby you degrade your own sensor capabilities to lower your visibility. So you'd have to guess where the hunters might be, but on the plus side your electronic profile would be significantly lower, perhaps only appearing at a shorter range, and then take longer to resolve? (NB hunters could possibly also use this, if they were convinced they'd found a good camping spot. They could essentially do the sniper trick of only flicking on their sensors [opening their reflective scope] when the moment came to line up their interdiction shot])
- Would some form of 'electromagnetic occlusion zone' be viable? IE geographic areas which interfered with detection. Possibly exaggerated solar wind tails coming off suitable, large planetary bodies and extending away from the sun out into the darker depths? IE ships could stealth in using these 'passageways' of sorts, trying to nip between them where possible, but with the knowledge that these are the most likely paths of approach, and a last dash will always be likely etc.
I imagine there are other potentials out there, like degaussing services, possibly at tiny substations? And I've always liked the idea of profile masking [IE disguising your ship as another ship type on sensors, at great energy cost - with various flickers and tells possible to give you away], but this may be a dream mechanic too far for the current discussion
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Very few games are designed with the intention of being played for literally thousands of hours by a player, and while they may have repetitive elements, they have a limited shelf life.
At this point I have to ask, where did you get this idea? FD have never intended for systems to move between each other which makes your claim about systems moving quite bold.
One last approach is to check if systems near the core have moved over the last years ED servers have been up as they are incredibly close to it and Sag A has a lot of mass.
I definitely vote for Tarman or Frenotx to compile an exciting SuperCruise revamp in a new thread
. Both have form and the gift of the gab I think I'll keep championing my tether as a corollary, and throwing ideas into the mix as and when. Fun mixing ideas with y'all
Oh by the way, got a good discussion going on Reddit yesterday off the back of points raised here:
Micro Sun Jumps: Adding content, not shortening the journey
Definitely drop by if you get a chance.
And I'd also like to transpose one of my rants there, which revisits the 'emptiness + time are required to represent space' design argument....
Just because I think it's important. And I'm yet to hear a truly compelling argument against it that hasn't just been a tautological 'but space is big and empty...'
Micro Sun Jumps: Adding content, not shortening the journey
Definitely drop by if you get a chance.
And I'd also like to transpose one of my rants there, which revisits the 'emptiness + time are required to represent space' design argument....
Long journeys are in theory fine. What's not fine is saying 'emptiness is required to represent space'. The whole 'space must involve long empty journeys to represent its big, empty nature' conceit is such a blunt, unimaginative take, to my mind.
If you think about all the other ways FDev has successfully represented scale we can see that transit times & content levels can flex and still retain the awe. Think of hyperspace jumps. They're the ultimate shortcut, but thanks to things like galmap routes & representations, the skybox shifting as we travel, the tiny-foreshadowed sun of the Hyperspace animation becoming the giant monstrosity of arrival... a suitable amount of awe and scale is retained. (And really, would you want to spend hours at a time traversing to each star, nay a realistic light year or two?
The same can be said of systems themselves, if not more so. Look at the way the new planetary colourings have added another 'bump map' style layer of realistic mountainous-ness to our gnarled friends, making speedy passes near them more convincingly the act of a tiny craft near a giant rock (despite our mind's eye being unaccustomed to such things). Speed near giant objects is an effective tool for conveying scale, when done right.
This is extended further by the celestial timings of the clockwork orrery. The shadow cast upon our station by a moon moving into eclipse does as much to convince us of the enormity of our environs as any chilly 10 minute trek towards a beacon of distant activity. There are many tools we can play with here...
The argument essentially is what we need to do is either expand the 'geographic influence' of each unique planetary system outwards (IE having their gravitational effects impinge further out into deep space, or their solar 'shadow', or some other such consideration), or contract the deadzone to place most transit within these worlds of possibility. (IE a 'box to box' system where the boxes are massive - they are the two solar arrays, with just the dead zone in the middle accelerated by a technically challenging and risky approach, for those that want it. That's the intent of my Tether idea, and others like it. One that preserves all playstyles, but at least gives options).
The USS spawn mechanics speak to all this too. Would content, even in deep space, really be such a terrible thing...?
/essay
Just because I think it's important. And I'm yet to hear a truly compelling argument against it that hasn't just been a tautological 'but space is big and empty...'
36 Ophiuchi (Katzenstein Dock) Holeee Sheeet 1hour real time flight
I'm new to Elite Dangerous, and I love the immersion and sheer scale. But if I can jump light years between systems, why the hell does it suddenly take me an hour in real time to get to a destination in system? Yeah yeah, true I don't have to if I don't want to, but I hate abandoning missions I've decided to accept. But holy shiatzu! I could have ferried several rich snobs around the universe for more payout in way less time. It took a real life hour to do a data delivery drop. The payout wasn't worth the time. Like I said, I love and appreciate the sheer scale, but an hour of seeing nothing?
I'm new to Elite Dangerous, and I love the immersion and sheer scale. But if I can jump light years between systems, why the hell does it suddenly take me an hour in real time to get to a destination in system? Yeah yeah, true I don't have to if I don't want to, but I hate abandoning missions I've decided to accept. But holy shiatzu! I could have ferried several rich snobs around the universe for more payout in way less time. It took a real life hour to do a data delivery drop. The payout wasn't worth the time. Like I said, I love and appreciate the sheer scale, but an hour of seeing nothing?
1 hour (In real time) flight to destination in system
This is a re-worded reply from my original (Which I wrote while still ticked off...LOL...Sorry)
Ok. So I'm new to Elite Dangerous, and so far I'm liking it pretty good. I've been looking for a great Sci-Fi game for awhile now. Though, Elite Dangerous is not that "perfect sci-fi game" I've been searching for, I really enjoy playing it. It has great immersion, and the sheer scale of everything is awesome.
However, what I'm not a big fan of is.....I can jump from 1 system to another in just seconds, BUT, once I get to a system I have to spend an hour (A real time, in real life HOUR) to get to my mission objective destination. I'm not understanding that part. Did my Friendship Drive just suddenly become my enemy all of a sudden? Is it a Union drive and only does big jumps according to it's warp contract? I don't get it. [???]
I know, I know, that I don't have to fly all that way and take all that time if I don't want. The payout certainly was not worth the mere time it took to get to the final destination. It was a HUGE waste of time (Both IN GAME and IN REAL LIFE). I could have ferried around rich tourists for better payout in way less time for a greater reward. But, I hate abandoning contracts that I chose to accept so I did the real time hour long trip to get the contract taken off my list.
I guess I'm just not getting the whole idea of this. I can already see the scale of this game, and it's huge. I'm not getting the need to put in hour long real time flights (maybe even longer) just to show the grand scale of things. To me that's the only thing that kills the fun in this game. I spent an hour in real time just staring at nothing. [zZzZz] Of course I did other things. Made some coffee, ate lunch, browsed the internet for A WHILE. Why should I have to do that while playing a game. Why should I have to do other stuff, than play the game, while playing the game? I'm not getting how this is fun. :S
All in all, I'm still liking the game...I'm just not loving the game. [sad]
This is a re-worded reply from my original (Which I wrote while still ticked off...LOL...Sorry)
Ok. So I'm new to Elite Dangerous, and so far I'm liking it pretty good. I've been looking for a great Sci-Fi game for awhile now. Though, Elite Dangerous is not that "perfect sci-fi game" I've been searching for, I really enjoy playing it. It has great immersion, and the sheer scale of everything is awesome.
However, what I'm not a big fan of is.....I can jump from 1 system to another in just seconds, BUT, once I get to a system I have to spend an hour (A real time, in real life HOUR) to get to my mission objective destination. I'm not understanding that part. Did my Friendship Drive just suddenly become my enemy all of a sudden? Is it a Union drive and only does big jumps according to it's warp contract? I don't get it. [???]
I know, I know, that I don't have to fly all that way and take all that time if I don't want. The payout certainly was not worth the mere time it took to get to the final destination. It was a HUGE waste of time (Both IN GAME and IN REAL LIFE). I could have ferried around rich tourists for better payout in way less time for a greater reward. But, I hate abandoning contracts that I chose to accept so I did the real time hour long trip to get the contract taken off my list.
I guess I'm just not getting the whole idea of this. I can already see the scale of this game, and it's huge. I'm not getting the need to put in hour long real time flights (maybe even longer) just to show the grand scale of things. To me that's the only thing that kills the fun in this game. I spent an hour in real time just staring at nothing. [zZzZz] Of course I did other things. Made some coffee, ate lunch, browsed the internet for A WHILE. Why should I have to do that while playing a game. Why should I have to do other stuff, than play the game, while playing the game? I'm not getting how this is fun. :S
All in all, I'm still liking the game...I'm just not loving the game. [sad]
You're not alone space bro. Many of us find those empty passages a big black mark on the game.
Best you can do for now is avoid taking missions to secondary suns etc. (Check the destination calculation in bottom right of mission page, check mission system map to see if you might get directed to far off locations in redirect missions, be suspicious of super high paying simple missions etc). It's annoying, but it's less annoying than 10+ mins of dead time. Best we've got at the moment :/
Right on
Thanks for the reply brother. Since my previous post, I've calmed down a bit. I've learned a few more things, and have come to accept a few things. I really wish I can skip over the long flight missions, but so far they offer the greatest payout per time spent on the mission. I can either do several quick missions and make a decent payout, or I can spend a real time hour of nothing and get an excellent payout. Unfortunately if I ever want to get to where I can finally start exploring and doing other stuff, I sometimes have to take that long flight mission.
I have branched out into passenger tours. I'm resolved not to take any passenger tour for less than a million credits per destination. I've also gotten lucky a couple of times and found some outrageously rich tourist who offered an awesome amount of credits per destination. One thing that's starting to tick me off about passengers now though, is that a few times, EVERY SINGLE PASSENGER that was available to me was wanted. I'm starting to see it more and more. I don't know if it's a side effect from an update, or an intentional thing, but I think it's a transport load of . I can understand a couple of passengers on the board being illegal, but THE WHOLE PASSENGER LIST??? It didn't matter what faction I chose. Every passenger that was available for me to take was an illegal, wanted criminal.
I'm learning that no matter what is chosen, there's always going to be some kind of attached to it. One time I took one of those long flight missions, where it said enemy ships could be sent to intercept me. I spent about 40 minutes of twiddling my thumbs, picking my nose, making coffee, browsing the internet. Suddenly the enemy ship just POPPED into my position. I had to spend 40 minutes of real ' time to get to where I was in system. How the fork did this dude just appear out of nowhere to my exact position to interdict me?
I still really like this game, and have fun with it. Just wish I could LOVE this game. I will say that the travel music is angelic and adds to the immersion. On the really long flights though, it starts to put me to sleep.
Anyways, Be safe out there commander!
Thanks for the reply brother. Since my previous post, I've calmed down a bit. I've learned a few more things, and have come to accept a few things. I really wish I can skip over the long flight missions, but so far they offer the greatest payout per time spent on the mission. I can either do several quick missions and make a decent payout, or I can spend a real time hour of nothing and get an excellent payout. Unfortunately if I ever want to get to where I can finally start exploring and doing other stuff, I sometimes have to take that long flight mission.
I have branched out into passenger tours. I'm resolved not to take any passenger tour for less than a million credits per destination. I've also gotten lucky a couple of times and found some outrageously rich tourist who offered an awesome amount of credits per destination. One thing that's starting to tick me off about passengers now though, is that a few times, EVERY SINGLE PASSENGER that was available to me was wanted. I'm starting to see it more and more. I don't know if it's a side effect from an update, or an intentional thing, but I think it's a transport load of . I can understand a couple of passengers on the board being illegal, but THE WHOLE PASSENGER LIST??? It didn't matter what faction I chose. Every passenger that was available for me to take was an illegal, wanted criminal.
I'm learning that no matter what is chosen, there's always going to be some kind of attached to it. One time I took one of those long flight missions, where it said enemy ships could be sent to intercept me. I spent about 40 minutes of twiddling my thumbs, picking my nose, making coffee, browsing the internet. Suddenly the enemy ship just POPPED into my position. I had to spend 40 minutes of real ' time to get to where I was in system. How the fork did this dude just appear out of nowhere to my exact position to interdict me?
I still really like this game, and have fun with it. Just wish I could LOVE this game. I will say that the travel music is angelic and adds to the immersion. On the really long flights though, it starts to put me to sleep.
Anyways, Be safe out there commander!