Info on Thermal Conduit effect.

Pigletslastand

Pigletslastand
According to the latest stream the Devs are looking into the Thermal Conduit effect.

The main problem as I see it is that it's applied at a flat buff of 60% extra damage as soon as you hit 100% heat in your ship, it would be fairer and less OP if it was a slidng scale that increased up to the max of 60% extra damage instead of an instant buff. Perhaps only giving the 60% full buff at say 200% heat which would then incur penalties to doing so as you would fry your modules more.

There is another underlying issue that is raised here and that is how survivable the current heat mechanics are. Heat used to do incredible amounts of damage and was a problem as it was bugged so the heat damage to the ship was reduced. Now everyone uses TC because they can survive the extra heat and get free extra damage. So perhaps heat needs looking at more than TC itself.

I am by no means the sole authority on this and welcome other thoughts especially from the more experienced PvPers than I.. but it may be helpful to have this thread for the Devs to dip into if they wish to hear from those that use Thermal Conduit daily.

Also may I add that this is barely even a problem in my eyes so any tweak should only be very fine or nuanced or it risks making TC itself useless. Please go lightly with the changes if any! I do not speak for everyone but I use TC a lot.. everyone does in the PvP world. You literally cannot afford not to at the moment and the way things stand.
 

Amanojaku

Amanojaku
I wasn't around during the "heat meta", but I read that the main problem was packhounds/seekers with thermal cascade. Apparently they could melt shielded ships with ease, so Fdev will have to be careful tinkering wih ship's internal heat levels and damage.

As for Thermal Conduit, I agree it should be a sliding scale instead of a flat buff.
 

Pigletslastand

Pigletslastand
Amanojaku said:
I wasn't around during the "heat meta", but I read that the main problem was packhounds/seekers with thermal cascade. Apparently they could melt shielded ships with ease, so Fdev will have to be careful tinkering wih ship's internal heat levels and damage.

As for Thermal Conduit, I agree it should be a sliding scale instead of a flat buff.
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Apparently the heat being applied to the shileds used to be compounded by however many ships were in instance.. a fun bug! But yeah.. if they made it a sliding scale I think it would be perfect because the balance of the meta is extremely fine.. If they make TC useless by nerfing it more than that ..everyone will just use quad rails
 

Fuego Estelar

Fuego Estelar
The TC simply has removed almost all other builds out of the game. Most part of the PVP community tried to "not use" TC (like we also don´t use heal beams for example) because all of us noticed it was very broken, but at the end another part of the PVP community started to abuse it 24/7, forcing the rest of the PVP community to use it.

The problem also is this a known bug/balancing issue that has been around since 2018 and FDEV hasn´t fixed it yet, like some other mechanics that would need urgent revision
 

TEBORI

TEBORI
as it is written here in my issue report https://issues.frontierstore.net/issue-detail/16198 there are several problems atm with Plasma TC
how broken it is one can see in the analyce video i made with another long year pvp veteran
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3EdVL8e_E0

1. 60% constant damage buff
2. in the actual state of the game the heat is counted AFTER the shot
as it can be seen in the video i can reach a damage of 800 mj with my no premium fdl when firing a lot below 100%
Plasma TC brake the variants of possibilities of pvp combat ships atm and need heavily a rework
o7
 

LeKeno

LeKeno
Another hint that TC PAs are definitely over powered

Everyone probably knows about the "The Git Gud Guide to Trading in Open" explaining how to survive a PvP encounter with a T7, right?
Well, after the new TC PA meta settled in, the author of that video did a test against a FDL with 5 TC PA and no matter what they did, they always died in 3 simple clicks.

Now imagine what a full wing of these can do, and the poor PvE folks...
Please, consider voting up the issue.
 
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Pigletslastand

Pigletslastand
Fuego Estelar said:
The TC simply has removed almost all other builds out of the game. Most part of the PVP community tried to "not use" TC (like we also don´t use heal beams for example) because all of us noticed it was very broken, but at the end another part of the PVP community started to abuse it 24/7, forcing the rest of the PVP community to use it.
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It isn't VERY broken.. it's just only slightly more powerful than using a 'Yeeter' 4 shortrange blaster rails and a corrosive multi on the huge. It doesn't need removing and isn't an abuse of a mechanic nor a bug. It just needs a very fine adjustment. But the adjustment has to be superfine or else you just make rails the new meta which do almost the same amount of damage. IMO you could just introduce the sliding scale of damage and it would be enough.

Also it is not as frowned upon as healing beams in fights which are just flat out rejected in the PvP community. Everyone uses TC now and it has it's place. But a very very small tweak is all that's needed as there are other builds that are almost as strong.
 

Pigletslastand

Pigletslastand
LeKeno said:
Another hint that TC PAs are definitely over powered

Everyone probably knows about the "The Git Gud Guide to Trading in Open" explaining how to survive a PvP encounter with a T7, right?
Well, after the new TC PA meta settled in, the author of that video did a test against a FDL with 5 TC PA and no matter what they did, they always died in 3 simple clicks.

Now imagine what a full wing of these can do, and the poor PvE folks...
Please, consider voting up the issue.
Click to expand...
A trader against a full wing is almost certainly dead.. there is nothing they will be able to do there realistically. Thermal conduit or no thermal conduit. I have escaped from a Meta FDL quite a number of times in a paper long distance bubble jumping dbx. Heatsinks are your friend! But that may have said more about the skill of the ganker than my own. There will always be situations in life and this game where there is slim to none on the cards.. and dealing with that is an experience in itself!
 

Kate Balthazar

K
The TC plasma meta as-is has flexibility, substantial variation (which some people might not notice just because you're primarily seeing variations of fer-de-lances!) and a focus on flight mastery and reading your opponent. It provides a huge amount of gameplay for commanders to hone their skills to compete in that environment. I have been building weird ships to attack that meta for a year and change now, but I am pretty happy with PVP balance as-is, I personally don't feel like thermal conduit needs a nerf. Nudging the dials runs the risk of destroying what is honestly an art form that people have been honing for years.

If something is to be done to improve player PVP experience, I don't think TC is the first place to go. There's no nerf to TC that ends anywhere but more FDLs with different loadouts, dominating in all the ways that TC plasma FDLs are now, but potentially putting the meta in a worse place where the best weapons do not utilize the full flight profile of a ship like landing a plasma volley does. It could get really boring!
 

TEBORI

TEBORI
Pigletslastand said:
It isn't VERY broken.. it's just only slightly more powerful than using a 'Yeeter' 4 shortrange blaster rails and a corrosive multi on the huge. It doesn't need removing and isn't an abuse of a mechanic nor a bug. It just needs a very fine adjustment. But the adjustment has to be superfine or else you just make rails the new meta which do almost the same amount of damage. IMO you could just introduce the sliding scale of damage and it would be enough.

Also it is not as frowned upon as healing beams in fights which are just flat out rejected in the PvP community. Everyone uses TC now and it has it's place. But a very very small tweak is all that's needed as there are other builds that are almost as strong.
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4 yeeter which means 4 srb rails on a fdl is a hard beast.
1) you have to be 1 km or less in range to the target (this is very hard to achieve for the majority of pvp pilots and needs double skill compared to tc plasma ram fire and forget meta) to deploy all potential damage.
2) 4 rails on a fdl no matter srb or long range is a build the fdl does not like at all. one has to work extreme hard on the power distributor when 4 rails are combined with prisma shield tank or he will run too hot (and i mean really too hot) will not be able to fire or will get constantly hits without pips in shields (with 0 pips the shield is down 4 times faster more or less)
the only way to work around this is flying a hull tank. well in that case one thinks easy where is the problem be my guest.

if tc would be back as it was (counting the heat before the full shot and then increase with rising of the heat level before the trigger is pulled capped at max of 30% on about 150 we will see all variants of weapons and also many more people flying hibrids again (hull tank bi weave)

there is a reason why TC plasma were excluded in big pvp turnaments in the last 2 years.

example of order of procedure: pilot pulls the trigger, take the heat of this very moment, realease the plasma calculating this heat, now important keep this heat value for tc calculation for the full reload time to neglect delayed volley trick in case another plasma(s) is(are) released before the one which fired first is reloaded.


sidenote
if devs read this, think about changing the fdl to a class 5 powerplant. this lowers the possibility to make overpowered killer machines out of it (4000 shields atm plus 5 plasma with 800 mj volley) and brings skill in the first place to rock it cause clever build and evasion are the most important needs then and the 6 utility slots will not just be (ab)used with 5 heavy duty booster and one thermal but with chaff heatsinks and other stuff.
the fdl will still be strong cause of its superior agility but using this will be the major part for a fdl pilot then.
 
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Legendary Keks

L
Hello cmdr Tebori,
I do not think that tc is overpowered, bc:
You need to manage your heat to be between 100% and 160%...
Seconly you need a good powermanagement to even heat up even if you have the right build bc you need to shoot with low energy in wep to be able to heat up. If you run srb plasmas you will burn, so thats no option.
Thirdly you also have to have a good boostmanagement (which is also a part of the energymanegent) and you must be able to preturn to be able to use tc efficiently.
If you combine these skills right you might be able to use tc.

If you have these skills and git gud the 4 srb rails do more damage, bc of its hitscan capabilities. But you must have 2 heatsinks tho for around 3 enimys and you will not have chaff. Thats why it is balanced as it is right now.

What i feel like is a greater thread, are gimbaled weapons doing too much damage bc they need no skill at all.

Changing fdl pp size to 5 will not change much... people will fly more 5 pa... people with hulltanks will be ramed and deleated and modules will be attacked. Also you must change the mamba with the fdl if you want to acchieve anything.
 

Rubbernuke

Rubbernuke
Damage should match heat output above 100%. Think of it this way: the 'ammo' for this is your internal module health, and scales to the damage.

Heal beams need to deal shield generator damage over time to stop AFK turretboats winging up and breaking Powerplay.
 

StellarKnight

S
To add on Legendary Keks post:
  • flying properly a FDL requires a lot of learning and skill. There is no other ship in game which can line up Plasma volleys as a FDL does;
  • Plasma Accelerators are the hardest weapon to use and nothing comes even close. You need to properly fly with flight assist off, without drifting and being expert in following a target. All those things combined require a significant amount of time to learn - I bet people who moan against Thermal Conduit do not use Plasmas properly themselves. Mr.
TEBORI for sure as he flies either seeker Mamba ( 0 skill build) or rail Cutter (literally unkillable with fast boot FSD)
- Rails are just point and shoot with a little offset for charging. Rail FDL is actually the best ship for 1v1 as it can avoid plasma volleys WHILE dealing damage.

In the current shield stacking with heavy duty booster without TC you would ~15 minutes to kill fdl/mamba in 1v1. Currently only Thermal Conduit counters the booster stacking.

If you are a trader in T7 or T9 work to get a Cutter - it's the best ship for hauling cargo. If you are die in Cutter it's because you messed up badly. Meanwhile in Open there are many things you can do to avoid being blown up:
  • having a nearby star system pre-selected
  • if you see gankers drop to normal space and immediately jump to the other system.
Another way but more risky:
  • drop to normal space and immediately charge your FSD;
  • when the ganker drops, boost and go to SC. Rinse and repeat.
 

TEBORI

TEBORI
@StellarKnight i think you are mixing me with another pilot
TEBORI for sure as he flies either seeker Mamba ( 0 skill build) or rail Cutter (literally unkillable with fast boot FSD)
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as it can be seen in many of my videos on my channel (link in the description) my prefered ship is a hull tank (without shields at all) fdl, chief or Fas with rails as main damage dealers. partially also hull tank fdl with 5 TC Plasma
 
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Guyperson

Guyperson
TEBORI said:
sidenote
if devs read this, think about changing the fdl to a class 5 powerplant. this lowers the possibility to make overpowered killer machines out of it (4000 shields atm plus 5 plasma with 800 mj volley) and brings skill in the first place to rock it cause clever build and evasion are the most important needs then and the 6 utility slots will not just be (ab)used with 5 heavy duty booster and one thermal but with chaff heatsinks and other stuff.
the fdl will still be strong cause of its superior agility but using this will be the major part for a fdl pilot then.
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I don't know if you recall but the FDL had a class 5 power plant when it was first introduced. It and the Vulture released at the same time had tight power budgets so you had to balance your loadouts. Despite that the FDL was good enough that it was the meta even with the smaller plant. The FAS could give it a run for its money but still tended to be at a disadvantage.

Then they decided to buff the plant to class 6 (no love for the Vulture though) which just widened the gap even further so you kind of have to dig for reasons to fly anything else.
 

StellarKnight

S
TEBORI said:
@StellarKnight i think you are mixing me with another pilot


as it can be seen in many of my videos on my channel (link in the description) my prefered ship is a hull tank (without shields at all) fdl, chief or Fas with rails as main damage dealers. partially also hull tank fdl with 5 TC Plasma
Click to expand...

Last time I fought you at Nanomam CGs quite some months ago and you were still either in the mamba or cutter - kudos for investing into learning the lance.
 
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