Instant Transfer: Practical Effects

[c00ky1970]

Impact to game

players with a lot of credits will transport their fleets about, players with not many credits will want to save up credits so they can buy lots of ships and transport them about

Another credit sink will be introduced into the game, which is a good thing.

the faff of driving to a shipyard equipped station and swapping to an ASP to jump the 12ly to the next system to then summon your FSD D graded bounty hunter to farm a RES will make players realise dropping from B or D FSD introduces more delay than sticking with a jump capable fighter.

people will realise that they can't distinguish between an FDL that was shipped and one that was transported the long way and find something else to go headless chicken mode in.

 

[Arkadi]

Hello, everyone.

This thread frames much simpler questions:

What practical impact is this actually going to have for most of us?

• what are the likely actual, gameplay consequences of instant ship transfer?

Most players will use it in any game-mode beocuse it's easy and comfortable. This means that tactical ship placement in the bubble is not much of a thing anymore.

Also mulit-purpose ships might get less loved in the community becouse you no longer depend on mulitpurpose that much becouse you can call in your specialised ship for any task you want to do.

Also grieving and revenge-grieving will use this ship calling for theire benefits as all others will.

• how will this affect your own, personal gameplay?
I play mostly in open and also power-play. I will use ship-calling to optimize my gameplay. I will use fast travel-ships to get to various combat-zones and undermining systems and then call in my PvE fighters. If I should see players from enemy powers getting in I will go to station and call in my PvP ship. I will not like it very much but I will do it becouse I think the others will do the same.

• how frequently does this seem likely to have an impact on your game, if any?
constantly, becouse ship calling changes my complete strategy of ship-choice and deployment.

 

[Kellan Fell]

No, it is not reasonable fear. Allow me to demonstrate:

MODULES CAN BE STORED.

Let me repeat that: MODULES CAN BE STORED.

It doesnt matter how you transfer your ship, manually, instantly or delayed if you're concerned with everyone using FSD 2E on their corvette. That will be totally possible regardless of how that ship got there. You will just dock, get the tiny FSD, and when you want to leave you plop the modded high-end FSD back in.

Before mods existed this was already the case, you'd just find a CZ/res in a high-tech or some such system, and you'd go ape with your lightweight ship. Nobody every complained about it, and when it was discussed it was discussed as a form of tactics and planning. So why are we so fearful of it now? Because people dont like the concept of instant transfer and are drumming up fake reasons why it shouldnt happen, rather than just be honest about it and say it breaks their immersion. People who want to farm might put a tiny FSD in their corvette, regardless of ship transfer. People who do missions wont, because it'll take far more time if you have to change ships for every 10LY jump.

As for your last sentence: what if it does work for some (explorers), but doesnt for others (people just trying to get to their mining ship for a relaxing mining-session)? Maybe keep it the same for explorers and change it for the latter? Ofcourse, that only works if people acknowledge that different people have different 'needs' in ED, and can tolerate others playing in a different way. Which the fanatics as usual cant accept. They want to wait 15 minutes? Then everyone should wait 15 minutes. Why? Because.

I accept the point about module storage, I've argued long and hard fro some kind of player hangar storage so that you can keep interesting modules after you've sold the ship, but again this can be implemented in a number of ways. If you go down the EVE route, then you rent storage space in a particular station (your home base) and here you can store the modules you've kept. If you want to refit, then you fly back to your home base and refit.

I also can't dispute the fact that you've always had the option to downgrade your FSD when you arrive in system (though in the past this would have been reliant on being able to buy a big one back in order to leave system later).

I've never pretended this was anything other than a personal opinion (though most of the polls on the forum show over 70% agree that there should be some delay on the transfer), but I do feel it could have been implemented better. Also I've never made any bones about the fact that my objection is purely based on breaking the immersion, and nothing else.

If FDev had announced that they were introducing an NPC haulage firm that would move your ships around for you with Jumponium powered jumps in order to reduce transit times to a bare minimum then people would have accepted that. If they had announced that they were setting up player hangar storage in all stations, and that you would be able to pick up missions on the message boards to ship other players modules around for them (and that you could raise missions yourself to get your modules shipped), with payment for shipment and fines equal to the value of the shipment for failure to deliver (i.e. theft) then people would have accepted that.

Either of these options improve gameplay for the player, whilst maintaining the internal logic of the universe David Braben sold to us all when we backed/bought the game, and also fit in with the expectations of the majority of people posting on this forum. I am in favour of improving the game mechanics to improve the game experience, not removing them.

I'm not a fanatic, hell I'm lucky if I play more than 5 hours a week thanks to real life, and some sessions I do nothing but ferry ships around to set up the next session's play - and I accept that as needed in the internal logic of the universe. I accept that everyone plays the game in different ways, but equally everyone should buy into the same universal internal logic, otherwise surely the game universe just breaks down?

We've accepted the fact that 34th century technology apparently doesn't stretch to an autopilot, or that we can jump the 5LY to the neigbouring system almost instantly, but we can't see the prices of the commodity market before we get there, because the internal logic of the universe has no FTL communication. And yet although in many ways we accept that 34th century technology is behind 21st century, we are expected to accept that they can instantly transfer several thousand tons of starship across hundred of light years? If that technology exists, why are we seeing the Engineers to boost our range up to a paltry 40LY?

 

[Goose4291]

Missions, Multi-roles and the BGS

This is likely to be the final death knell for multi-role ships when it comes to mission running, as now the best method will be

(1) Arrive at star port in your long range taxi
(2) Read the bulletin board to find something you want to do
(3) Call your ship optimised for that type of thing (so freighter, combat ship or long range rocket sled)
(4) Run mission.

This will lead to making any multi role ship redundant beyond some sort of RP choice. If I want to be as effective as possible in a combat mission i'm of course going to sack off the python in favour of my FDL.

This will mean that missions are easier to find as prior planning won't be required, easier to complete as you'll always be using your bespoke ship instead of slumming it in something multirole andmanipulation of the BGS will be easier to achieve

 

[DragoonKnight]

Nice. I'm glad someone is willing to take the time to breakdown the madness.

What I foresee in answer to your questions
Consequences?
-Total end of manually transferring ship trips. I will find this greatly beneficial and will make my time spent playing the game better on average. I expect to see this benefit maybe, once a week.
-Large drop in Adder usage... because lets face it, want to get from A to B without investing much? Use an Adder. It'll be sad to see our lil ugly duckling less but I'll still find use of it now and then.
-Fast moving combat fleets: When CGs move around the various pro and counter CG faction will get their faster with the help of ship transfer. As a player that enjoys player interaction in all it's forms (even as I get vented into space) I see this as a benefit. However I expect there may be some people in long range traders that use a strategy of getting their first and only engaging in the first day of a CG so it'll be bad for them I guess.
-Warships in Jaqu. Probably the biggest issue is combat vessels getting to the second bubble easily and engage the more innocent explorers there. I feel a limitation of range on the system would solve this particular issue.

A limitation on the range will also guarantee that most players will not want to go the Jacques Bubble. Why Bother if I can only have my ASP explorer there and I cant even add any Engineer mods to it because all the engineers are back in the original bubble.

 

[Cynaqq]

Missions, Multi-roles and the BGS

This is likely to be the final death knell for multi-role ships when it comes to mission running, as now the best method will be

(1) Arrive at star port in your long range taxi
(2) Read the bulletin board to find something you want to do
(3) Call your ship optimised for that type of thing (so freighter, combat ship or long range rocket sled)
(4) Run mission.

This will lead to making any multi role ship redundant beyond some sort of RP choice. If I want to be as effective as possible in a combat mission i'm of course going to sack off the python in favour of my FDL.

This will mean that missions are easier to find as prior planning won't be required, easier to complete as you'll always be using your bespoke ship instead of slumming it in something multirole andmanipulation of the BGS will be easier to achieve

So, everything will be AWESOME? Because it sure sounds like it by your words.

Gameplay will be more dynamic and ships will get more use, across the board.

It sounds like this change will give people a lot more options rather than take them away like many people seem to suggest around here. I see being able to use the best ship for any situation for efficiency as a good thing. Is it not?

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

So, everything will be AWESOME? Because it sure sounds like it by your words.

Gameplay will be more dynamic and ships will get more use, across the board.

It sounds like this change will give people a lot more options rather than take them away like many people seem to suggest around here. I see being able to use the best ship for any situation for efficiency as a good thing. Is it not?

Nope not dynamic, just easy instead.

 

[Cynaqq]

Nope not dynamic, just easy instead.

Well, the current way isn't particularly hard either. It just takes time.

Tedium isn't difficulty and it definitely isn't good gameplay.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Also I've never made any bones about the fact that my objection is purely based on breaking the immersion, and nothing else.

If FDev had announced that they were introducing an NPC haulage firm that would move your ships around for you with Jumponium powered jumps in order to reduce transit times to a bare minimum then people would have accepted that. If they had announced that they were setting up player hangar storage in all stations, and that you would be able to pick up missions on the message boards to ship other players modules around for them (and that you could raise missions yourself to get your modules shipped), with payment for shipment and fines equal to the value of the shipment for failure to deliver (i.e. theft) then people would have accepted that.

Either of these options improve gameplay for the player, whilst maintaining the internal logic of the universe David Braben sold to us all when we backed/bought the game, and also fit in with the expectations of the majority of people posting on this forum. I am in favour of improving the game mechanics to improve the game experience, not removing them.

I'm not a fanatic, hell I'm lucky if I play more than 5 hours a week thanks to real life, and some sessions I do nothing but ferry ships around to set up the next session's play - and I accept that as needed in the internal logic of the universe. I accept that everyone plays the game in different ways, but equally everyone should buy into the same universal internal logic, otherwise surely the game universe just breaks down?

We've accepted the fact that 34th century technology apparently doesn't stretch to an autopilot, or that we can jump the 5LY to the neigbouring system almost instantly, but we can't see the prices of the commodity market before we get there, because the internal logic of the universe has no FTL communication. And yet although in many ways we accept that 34th century technology is behind 21st century, we are expected to accept that they can instantly transfer several thousand tons of starship across hundred of light years? If that technology exists, why are we seeing the Engineers to boost our range up to a paltry 40LY?

I think your post indeed shows there are many, many inconsistencies in the ED universe. As with any game. I can name more: how come you can find polonium (with a half-life of 138 days) on planets where noone has visited in millions of years? Why are there people in ships rather than using remote-control as wing-chat works galaxy wide? Why are the sensors so horrible on my conda, I'd be better off ductaping a sidey with A-sensors to my hull? Why is there a speed/yaw cap? Why does constructing a ship, or refueling, no time? Heck, you already have instant transfer upon death, noone is asking for a timer there. The list really goes on and on and on. These choices are there for gameplay reasons.

Where you draw the line is up to each individual. But I can already guarantee that adding a few seconds delay may work for some, but has zero gameplay value, would be panned by the majority of gamers in general and wont be enough for the hardcore immersion guys. Your proposal for player-controlled transfer missions is fun, but doesnt work (I'm not going to wait a year for someone to ship my FSD from some backwater station) and requires massive dev effort. And the latter is something people often forget to include, whereas FD cannot afford such luxury.

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Tedium isn't difficulty and it definitely isn't good gameplay.

Around here it is. Notice how the 'we want hardcore and realistic gaming so no instant transfer!' people are often the exact same folks against smarter AI, more risk for explorers, IronMan and all those things, but totally in favor of mindless and challenge-free tedium.

 

[Arkadi]

Well, the current way isn't particularly hard either. It just takes time.

Tedium isn't difficulty and it definitely isn't good gameplay.

Around here it is. Notice how the 'we want hardcore and realistic gaming so no instant transfer!' people are often the exact same folks against smarter AI, more risk for explorers, IronMan and all those things, but totally in favor of mindless and challenge-free tedium.

The "no instant transfer people" als might be totally accepting for ship-transfer if it just would not be the super-instant 3D-print solution that Frontier seems to advertice but maybe would be more acceptive if a littel rest of realism was kept in giving time-delays rangeing from 30 seconds to 10 minutes reflecting ship jump-range and distance.

So, everything will be AWESOME? Because it sure sounds like it by your words.

Gameplay will be more dynamic and ships will get more use, across the board.

It sounds like this change will give people a lot more options rather than take them away like many people seem to suggest around here. I see being able to use the best ship for any situation for efficiency as a good thing. Is it not?

After considering many pros and cons and also other options like commander-transfer or auto pilot I can finally agree, if there was the littel compromise of changing instant-transfer to delayed-transfer like I mentioned above.

 

[Ian Skippy]

The "no instant transfer people" als might be totally accepting for ship-transfer if it just would not be the super-instant 3D-print solution that Frontier seems to advertice but maybe would be more acceptive if a littel rest of realism was kept in giving time-delays rangeing from 30 seconds to 10 minutes reflecting ship jump-range and distance.

Adding a minor nuisance wont make it 'realistic' nor would it add gameplay. It only adds a small timesink without challenge or anything, and would be there only to appease those who want to pretend its realistic with a minimum of effort. Either go realistic, and make it last as long as if human-flown, or go instant. Having it take long would take far more dev-effort and remove most of the value of it, so its either instant transfer or no transfer. Gameplay versus immersion. The 'middle' way sounds good on paper but makes zero sense when you think more about it, it just combines the worst of both ideas. And considering the constant complaining that FD sacrifices good game design on the alter of fake realism, I'm pretty sure loads of people are fine with gameplay over immersion in this case. Others are not. C'est la vie.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Well, the current way isn't particularly hard either. It just takes time.

Tedium isn't difficulty and it definitely isn't good gameplay.

I agree, but making easy is worse in my eyes. What we really need as a massive update to the BGS so we can actually see some change in the game.
Great we have instant travel, for what purpose as nothing actually changes anyway. All the instant travel is doing trying to hide the problems that are already there.

It actually doesn't fix anything.

 

[Cosmos]

How? You still have to get around. If im pirating a system over, i still need to get out of that system. I'm not pirating in a max jump range ship. I'm still going to want good jump range on all my ships.

You get in an Asp E with 50 ly jump range.. You go where you want to be, you summon the fleet. I can get to Maia from founders in less than 10 jumps, the bubble is less of a traversable difference.

What??? How? People don't leave the game to make ship transfers.

Not that it affects you since you play in a little safe space but as I just said you can zip from CG to CG/ or area of current interest, less jumps, in one ship means less opportunity to see other players along the way.. As if space wasn't barren enough already. Think of vanilla WoW, the world was full of players, think of WoW post LIch King, the world was empty and folks were sat queueing in the cities.

No. You still have to travel. Depending on distance, you might shave off some minutes travelling in a high range ship, but you also increase risk doing so if you have it stripped down for max range.

There is no risk, my Asp does nearly 500 on boost, has a ~50 light year jump range, nothing short of a fleet of players poses a risk to me, and even then you have to be a lemon to get killed in this game if you don't want to. As for the AI, well it was alright upon 2.1 but its since been nerfed to death.

How? You really suggesting some ships will no longer be flown (beyond what already exists)? I'm with MB on this one, i think we will see more variety in ship usage, as people will now be more likely to buy those low range ships for their fleets as they can now transport them easily.

I'm suggesting the opposite. I imagine we'll have a jump ship to travel, and another ship for combat and perhaps a large one for trade. Since the FDL is by far the most able combat ship I can strip if down even further.. No need to spend a forutune on a top FSD for a Cutta or Corvette either.. They are fun to fight A rated and fully engineered, lots more of them at CGs and hubs too.

I just can't imagine any use for the likes of the Cobra or many of the other mid range ships.. Even the Clipper becomes redundant. We'd see fewer ships out and about, less variety, lots of Asps though, so that may please you.

Eviscration you say? Wow.... Do what i plan on doing. Just pretend they are being transported in real time. Suspension of disbelief restored. Even if FD do decide that 3D printing is how they will hand wave it away, it won't be like that in my head. The 3D printing suggestion is dumb on so many levels.

Funny because the only time I've ever heard of Brookes speak of 3D printing is after gamescom. As for what goes on in your head, well we can only speculate The problem they introduced with Engineers was never about moving ships around, it was storing and hauling modules, which if was part of the game would mean we could transport the stuff in our cargo holds, at risk of theft and destruction. More ot the point, we wouldn't all be zipping around the bubble in 2 seconds flat with a 50ly jump range ship, and an insibile fleet by our side which we magically make appear at a station.

I happen to know some people who are going to have a field day with this.

PvP unbalanced you say? Well, i never. Keep in mind though, high waking is still the best way to get out of a combat situation. Any PvPer that nerfs their range into the ground to get a little extra performance is going to be denied that ability. Its a risky choice.

Not really, all you need to be able to do is high wake. If you are going to talk about PvP its usually a good idea to know something about it first

Right. Let me know how well you get on in combat zones in that stripped down Asp will you?

Did you miss the bit where we dock and summon the fleet? Derp!

 

[trollson]

I had not considered the change in ship dynamics - people flying high-jump ships and just summoning their tanks from across the galaxy...

My personal concern (exploit) will be to magic over that Cobra MkIV when I find somewhere selling the big power plant it needs. Why hobble around in a half-complete ship looking for parts when you can blink it over?


Limit transfer range to what the stored ship can achieve with a full tank of fuel.

This is then just a simple route calculation - and since jump-jump-jumping is effectively "instant" (ignoring the final supercruise leg to the station), then there shouldn't be any immersion breaking.

 

[Matt L. Icious]

I see some consistency and lore issues with instant ship transfer.

First the general ones:
* Restricted shipyards make no sense whatsoever anymore. If my ship can be transferred instantly, so could any hull for me to buy.
* Same for ship modules in outfitting. If outfitting is offered, the smallest outback outpost should offer the whole range of modules. ALL of them, no more 'sold out today'. If it's not in stock, just insta-transfer it from where it's available - maybe at a premium.

Now let's assume it's not teleportation - because otherwise the Elite universe as we know it would hardly make any sense anymore.
So assume it's auto-fabrication
* If it reproduces engineered modules, why should neither have to visit the engineers? Or grind for materials? If it can be done from some data set, from available material, that would work for every mod. You should be able to buy any engineered module you want (type/effect) everywhere if you have the scan data.
* Shouldn't that be able to fabricate most commodities? A unit of, say Iron, sounds way simpler than an FSD. So why run for fetch missions, just have the commodity auto-fabricated locally for a price.

I am sure that there are more like inconsistencies caused by instant ship transfer. Not game breaking, but causing notable inconsistencies in the simulated universe negatively affecting immersion.
This puts me in the "ship transfer yes - instantly no" camp.

 

[Ian Skippy]

I had not considered the change in ship dynamics - people flying high-jump ships and just summoning their tanks from across the galaxy...

My personal concern (exploit) will be to magic over that Cobra MkIV when I find somewhere selling the big power plant it needs. Why hobble around in a half-complete ship looking for parts when you can blink it over?

Again: this has also nothing to do with ship transfer as we get module storage/transfer anyway.

 

[Trueno33]

Aaaand none of this matters a jot when you're outside the bubble anyway.

Fancy that.

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OH oh oh..and... For explorers returning from a long trip, pop into the nearest station. Dial up your best, toughest combat ship. Take all your data to your preferred choice of faction and hand in.

Awesomeballs

I like it even more.

Shame. I had an established protocol, a well thought plan foe when I am back in the bubble. I had much fun developing that plan. I had gameplay. Now it doesn't matter anymore. Dumbing down is dumbing down.

Edit: and the excitement of the risk, all gone

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Again: this has also nothing to do with ship transfer as we get module storage/transfer anyway.

That is why I disagree with module transfer. Storage yes, transfer no. Or it takes time to come just like anything else that needs to be transported.

 

[Arkadi]

Adding a minor nuisance wont make it 'realistic' nor would it add gameplay. It only adds a small timesink without challenge or anything, and would be there only to appease those who want to pretend its realistic with a minimum of effort. Either go realistic, and make it last as long as if human-flown, or go instant. Having it take long would take far more dev-effort and remove most of the value of it, so its either instant transfer or no transfer. Gameplay versus immersion. The 'middle' way sounds good on paper but makes zero sense when you think more about it, it just combines the worst of both ideas. And considering the constant complaining that FD sacrifices good game design on the alter of fake realism, I'm pretty sure loads of people are fine with gameplay over immersion in this case. Others are not. C'est la vie.

I'd agree if not for one thing and this is following situation:

Scene in Open Play. A trader starts from his last tradeport and gets down from his first jump. He is getting interdicted and in the following fight he gets destroyed by a human fighter pilot.

Now the trader is back at his station only one jump away. He can not only buy some ship at the station and outfit it with whatever ther is to get his revenge. Now he can call in his massive engineerd battleship maybe a Corvette and look for revenge.

I don't think this is good gamplay. Some might say attacking a trader also is not a good gameplay but things like this happen for various reasons:

pirating, powerplay, community goal rivalry, territorial faction dispute, pure griefing.

To avoid instant revenge with the most deadly battleship available I would insist on a greater time-delay for such ships as the gamedesign was suggesting from start in giving those ships only limited jumpranges.

 

[Goose4291]

So, everything will be AWESOME? Because it sure sounds like it by your words.

Gameplay will be more dynamic and ships will get more use, across the board.

It sounds like this change will give people a lot more options rather than take them away like many people seem to suggest around here. I see being able to use the best ship for any situation for efficiency as a good thing. Is it not?

Depends on you're viewpoint I suppose. My idea of awesome is the concept that with a little forethought you can be more effective and flexible at mission running if youre prepared to sacrifice having top end capability for a little multirole functionality as it shows a little planning on your part rather than just insta-warping your bespoke beasts over and flying as required.

Whereas instant warping your best ship over for a quick blast is a more 'casual' (not meant in a derogatory way, merely descriptive) idea of 'awesome'.

Also I don't like the idea of gutting all the mid range multi roles from the game if you want to be effective that this update brings, much like the early rebuy/rearm/repair cost reductions coupled with the changes that made credits grow on trees completely removed ships like the Eagle and viper as viable ships for combat.