Interdiction Dodgers

[Phosfurious]

Trading is currently not dangerous, because it's easy to escape NPC pirates. This might be OK-ish in general, but not in Anarchy space. In Anarchies, pirates should probably hunt in packs and be well organized. Like being interdicted by two or three pirates, one of them preventing you from jumping away.

This could potentially have a very nice side effect: the traders would prefer safe routes, but that in turns would make those routes less profitable. Demand for goods in anarchy space would become very high due to this, making it way more profitable. Are you, as a trader, going to risk this? You could potentially double your profits, but there's a very high chance you'll get robbed and be forced to give up quite a big amount of your cargo.

Or this could force some traders to trade in Cobras, ASPs and Pythons, lowering their risk (since they can fight back) but also lowering their profit. This is like an emergent new in-game occupation: high-risk trader. (High-risk miner could also become a thing, if the game simulation would put the highest quality ores deep in Anarchy space.)

In any event, as it is right now, trading in Elite: Dangerous is very similar to Eurotruck Simulator 2. It's a nice game, btw, I enjoy it. But no one's going to point a gun at you there, demanding cargo ;-)

I agree that things are pretty ubiquitous as far as reward not changing in a perceptible way when passing through anarchy space. As it is now, your chance of interdiction by a pirate "feels" higher to me, but there is essentially no good reason to trade there as opposed to a fed system nearby. Profits are all more or less in a tightly constricted range of no profit to a max of 2k profit per ton (though I've yet to see it).

Regardless of the system allegiance or government, there doesn't seem to be much of any trend for finding profits. I think the background AI might be at fault. Of course we can't see it clearly, but do pirates interdict npc traders in anarchy systems as often as a player? Are the traders submitting, getting killed, giving up cargo? If everything were working perfectly, wouldn't the economy in an anarchy system have high demand for almost everything? Someone correct me if I'm off here.

 

[SE-Apocalypse]

hmmmm, interesting. Have your reported that obvious bug? That's not cool at all.

Known since weeks. No point in flooding tickets over and over again about the same issues. Besides players do show up just fine as wanted, it just super rare because everyone is paying his bounties to avoid getting shot by hunters. Even the worst criminals like me doing a mission and getting 50k bounty because the mission is buggy and does not count most destroyed authority vessels for the quest. You do whatever makes you a criminal, you pay your fi... bounty and everything is good again. And as you can kill all day ships and do just few trade runs to fix that issue everyone is fixing it.

 

[outsidefactor]

Well, I hope this all works out.

There have been aspects of the game in need of a re-balance. The submit-then-meep tactic works too well against AIs, and changes to the chaff launcher will make combat against chaff users less arduous/tedious.

I just wish I could play. I have bugs stopping me from playing, and unanswered tickets going back to Dec 29th. I guess by the time the new Beta has come out and then been released I may have my tickets answered...

hmmmm, interesting. Have your reported that obvious bug? That's not cool at all.

Yeah, I have noticed weird reporting of legal status and ranking: I have seen another player at the same system (Shinrarta) and one day seen them Novice, then the next day Harmless. I was reluctant to report another ticket because I have more serious, game breaking bugs, that I have already reported and I want them to get addressed first. Legal status is a bit more tricky: Wanted is per jurisdiction, so it can change between systems if you're chasing a crim: the first time I chased a pirate with a Cloud Analyser I followed to the next system and almost let them go when they weren't wanted in that system... them my brain started working a gain and I interdicted and destroyed them

I miss the game so much, warts and all I have started to fall way behind other players I has in friendly competition with, and am, in general, disillusioned with the whole process. I am glad I decided not to try for the race to Elite: if I'd reset my progress and invested a bunch of time and then had this happen I would be (justifiably) livid.

 

[Darian]

Hello Commanders!

Also, on a tangent, we've just discovered that dumbfire missiles have no hit-check. Ouch. Sufficed to say that this should change in a near future update (It should not be a particularly challenging fix). Basically, at the moment, you cannot shoot dumbfires out.

Point defence guns were always meant to be a hard-counter for missiles (and trader ships tend to have a decent amount of utility mounts), so this fix should at least remove the most egregious issues of sidewinders pasting type 9's because they carry twin dumbifire racks), assuming you're prepared to use point defence.

Using point defence means you risk getting waxed by griefers using the station shooting missle then landing quick exploit

 

[Commander Silex]

Yes, and what that bounty hunter did IS illegal in that jurisdiction. Like in real life, a bounty hunter can't just go and assault someone and drag them away just anywhere. Matter of fact, RL bounty hunters are routinely arrested and tried for kidnapping when they attempt to apprehend wanted persons in jurisdictions where that isn't recognized.

It might well be in the end that turns out to be how FSD interdiction works for bounty hunters, and if that's what happens I'll roll with it. I actually think FD have made it fairly clear through the Galnet article regarding controversy of Interdictors that it's an 'issue' in lore terms. Perhaps some systems will ban their use whilst others allow them free reign.

I personally still prefer the 'let the players work it out for themself' balance as it currently stands. In many ways it actually leaves more room for non violent resolution, whereas making it an immediately hostile act ups the ante from the get go.

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Using point defence means you risk getting waxed by griefers using the station shooting missle then landing quick exploit

Can't imagine that's not a loophole pegged for closing.

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Now, if the interdicting player in question is green for the faction controlling the system, I could see that allowing interdiction without flagging; but I don't see system authorities letting "some guy we've never heard of or don't even like" lay down "spike strips" freely.

That would certainly make things more interesting.

 

[Darian]

If it is true that the bug is known since beta i would not hold my breath on that

 

[lexandro]

If people feel being interdicted and let go is a criminal act then I don't know how any player acting as sector security support could hope to perform the role properly by not doing so. However, if this is an issue I could understand a sector security permit system being implemented, which would allow aligned faction players to feely interdict in its territory.

 

[Chioxin]

OP...

Honestly, them disconnecting is totally noob. It's WAY easier to not be bothered by other players. It's called Solo mode. Sheesh... Why even bother with multiplayer at all anyway?

 

[srmoure]

Murder is not serious enough: You could add kill missions in near systems for the perps. This way murder would be punished and mission system would become more interesting by adding PVP elements as a bounty for executing capital punishment

 

[lexandro]

Murder is not serious enough: You could add kill missions in near systems for the perps. This way murder would be punished and mission system would become more interesting by adding PVP elements as a bounty for executing capital punishment

Again for those that do not understand;

There is no murder. Your avatar does not die.

 

[Darian]

That is why i am against an online Elite.
I have to deal the whole day with jerks and face the truth, online games attract them like s.. flies.

Then there is the so called balancing where you have to make sure that everything is balanced for PvP wich brings us such charming concepts like speed limits on ships travelling in vacuum (For the more simple minded people here, there is only an limit of acceleration depending on mass and thrust, but no speed limit in vacuum)

I really would like to play and space sim called elite, not Elite duel arena.

Then we have the PvP versus Trader issue where the traders are fattend for the PvP crowds pleasure.

Will not happen, while the idea of the Trader/Pirate thing is an cute idea it will not work out because there will be always a big part of the players who are in it for the LULZ who will exploit every shred out of it to pop ships, and every attempt to solve that will end in howling protests.

In other words, noone can play Elite "as they want" because it is an MMO and the game has to be played now the way that pleases the PvP crowd and in no other way, because we all know that if it is online and allows to shoot on stuff it has to be 24/7 PvP (popping ships) and everything else is just distracting.

Yes i like to play the PvP too, but i like to do other things too. But i can not because there is no "out time" from the PvP

Yes there is group or solo, but then i have still to deal with the fact that the game is balanced for PvP and I am limited in my choices due the balancing for the PvP issue.

In other words i pay the same amount of money to play an game that is limited in its expression because it has to be balanced for PvP.

So in other words it is either swallow it or not play elite, because?

It seems theese days you HAVE to be online, you HAVE to have PvP and everything other meaning full content HAS to be for the PvP.

I like to take the exampel from fantasy games to make clear why balancing sucks.

You have the Archer and the knight, booth competent in what they do.

In reality the Archer is lousy armored but as long you are not closer than a few meters you are dead, no matter how well armored you are, because that is what Archers are good at, ask any historian about the English invasion into French terretory and what they had to say about the welsh archers.

In an online mmo you nerf the hell out of the Archer until the Knight wins an Duel always because PvP means that if an Archer wins duels always as soon distance comes into play the game is over.

Skyrim online would mean that the rogue/archer/assasine combo is the weakest choice, not the strongest.

My point is that MMO always means balancing the game so that brute force wins 90/10 and any attempt at more "subtle" and strategic gameplay is foiled or the PvP crowd says it is "boring", and they dictate how the game is played.

So it is either fly around in an spaceship that is geared for PvP in elite now or you are what the Devs designed to be an amusing part of the game for other players, earning more than the others so you are an attractive target to rob out or blow up as the mood strikes

I am not talking about NPC "risks" here, because NPC do as the designer tells them so, while human players will not fit the role the Dev thought they will.

Humans are very crafty, that is what makes them survive with no natural weapons, so that means it takes not long and we end in what every MMO that is focused on PvP ends too, everyone either goes the most effective route in playing or plays not at all.

There is no living an fantasy, like putting turrets on an ship because that is what you think it should carry, you have to put a certain type of wepon in an certain slot on the ship to fit in.

In other words, MMO means for me i have to play a certain style or leave it.

Others dictate how i have the game to "like" or i am wrong about how it has to be played.

And the funny thing is no one has to voice it, if i want to suceed in any way i have to do it.

Elder scrolls online is an prime example there, the solo player games are great, the online version is just another gank fest where dps and only one way to play is "allowed" (yes you can in theory play it in other ways but then do not expect to get anywhere)

And offcourse you have to deal with the trolls, gankers and goons who play only to spoil the game for everyone else.

And that is why even in solo Elite sucks for me right now, the game is balanced for PvP and that turns it from an thing where i can express myself in the way i want into an game where I have to build my ship in an certain way or not at all or where if i play in open i have the choice between making an fighter or play the entertaining freighter to blow up or rob, my choice.

I call that no choice.

With an offline game i can revert to an prior safe if the losses i take from failure are too high for my taste, in elite as it is now i can not.
If i find an way to make insane amounts of credits in an offline game I just spoil the fun for myself or not, depends on my taste, if it is an online game that has to be nerfed or "balanced" instantly or the other players start to howl that it is an unfair advantage.

Because that is the fun part, now if i manage to advance faster in an style the majority does not consider " fun" to play I am competition!

So what does MMO really means for me?

I have to be like everyone else or If i am the nail that sticks out i have to be hammered down to the level of the others.

And that is why i consider mmo style games boring and uninspiring

Like Elite has become now.

Maybe the majority here loves to be assigned tasks to do the way they have to be done, be it by Developers decision or out of the need to be not the nail that sticks out in the world of Elite, but sorry, I for myself do not like to do as I was told.

Playing an game is for me the freedom to find my own way and figure out my own solutions at my own pace. Not be nudged all the time by some Dev or the rest of the players to play the game " as it is intented or the lore demands"

If i want to be told what to do 24/7 i join the army, and you know what? There i am paid to do as i am told, here i have to pay to do as i am told, be it monthly fees or by buying the game and then the DLC .

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OP...

Honestly, them disconnecting is totally noob. It's WAY easier to not be bothered by other players. It's called Solo mode. Sheesh... Why even bother with multiplayer at all anyway?

My point, and solo does not help because the multiplayer design of the game sucks the fun out of it

 

[Mohrgan]

Again for those that do not understand;

There is no murder. Your avatar does not die.

Semantics, you and they know exactly what's going on in this conversation. Blowing up another players ship is what is being called murder, and it should come with a heavy price. Not the slap on the wrist we see now.
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I like the system permit for Interdiction or you get fined as an attack. It fits nicely with the risk v reward idea. I also think the KWS should be usable in Super-cruise. That would let the BH's drag the guilty out, but not damage the clean players in their desperation for targets.
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Lets be sure the scales don't get tipped in favor of either side. Everyone that plays should be able to find fun and excitement in E: D. Piracy shouldn't be easy. I would favor tests of skill over tests of gear.
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There should be just one Interdictor, not classes with increasing difficulty. Just one. That said, Chaff should be one per ship. Shield Cell Banks should be one per ship, classed with your shields. Class 3 shields allows you one class 3 cell bank. Done. Stacking always causes trouble.
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Combat logging is dirty pool, but a pittance compared to the anguish it causes. I'm certain that combat logging is a common as griefing is. Too much fire for so little smoke.

 

[Commander Silex]

Combat logging is dirty pool, but a pittance compared to the anguish it causes. I'm certain that combat logging is a common as griefing is. Too much fire for so little smoke.

Probably hit the nail on the head there. Although they should both be dealt with in any case.

 

[hanks01]

Hello Commanders!

Solution one is to allow the interdictor device to have some sort of FSD delaying attack in normal space, that is temporarily disabled when the device is used for a successful interdiction. So submitting Commanders would be at risk of this attack, whilst Commanders that fought the interdiction would not (but instead would have to contend with their frame shift cool down).

An added benefit would be that the interdictor could be used outside of interdiction.

Solution two would be to remove submission and instead update the AI to be able to demand Commanders to drop of their own accord so that the authority ships could drop out onto them and scan.

Both solutions are non-trivial, both have pros and cons. No ETA, but we are working towards fixing this exploit.

Apologies if similar to the below has already been stated (haven't read the whole thread and it's getting late.)

Thanks for the response Sandro. Personally I like option 1 as I think it's good to have the option to submit, especially if I'm willing to fight, or end a battle in those moments that an interdiction is dangerously close to a star (some npcs love going for me when I'm fuel scooping.) It also led to having a new friend on my list last night as I was interdicted by a fellow alliance pilot looking for cargo, I was on an Alliance mission so he let me go. We had a chat and then decided to meet up in an Alliance warzone to fight together. That bit of emergent gameplay may not have come about if Option 2 was in place. Also when bounty hunting wanted NPCs I always prefer it when they submit as it saves on the hull damage (and they don't tend to run.)

Option 1 does sound good, it also signifies the intent of the interdictor to the interdictee if their FSI blocks the jump. It could also be the case that the better the FSI you have the longer the Frameshift cooldown afterwards.

On a side note, I'm really enjoying the game and I think the balance on most aspects is very good, despite what some forum threads often suggest. Looking forward to what comes next

 

[lexandro]

Semantics, you and they know exactly what's going on in this conversation. Blowing up another players ship is what is being called murder, and it should come with a heavy price. Not the slap on the wrist we see now.
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I like the system permit for Interdiction or you get fined as an attack. It fits nicely with the risk v reward idea. I also think the KWS should be usable in Super-cruise. That would let the BH's drag the guilty out, but not damage the clean players in their desperation for targets.
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Lets be sure the scales don't get tipped in favor of either side. Everyone that plays should be able to find fun and excitement in E: D. Piracy shouldn't be easy. I would favor tests of skill over tests of gear.
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There should be just one Interdictor, not classes with increasing difficulty. Just one. That said, Chaff should be one per ship. Shield Cell Banks should be one per ship, classed with your shields. Class 3 shields allows you one class 3 cell bank. Done. Stacking always causes trouble.
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Combat logging is dirty pool, but a pittance compared to the anguish it causes. I'm certain that combat logging is a common as griefing is. Too much fire for so little smoke.

Its not semantics. People just like to mislabel things and then complain when called on it.

Getting blown up by another player is in no way shape or form any different from getting blown up by the AI. Complaints about it are unjustified and illogical. However if an individual is singled out and repeatedly destroyed by a player or group of players that would be griefing and the injured party should make a support complaint and block said attacker/s. Otherwise, its gameplay.

Do you complain and demand inreased penalties when the AI kills you? Why is it suddenly different because a human is in control?

 

[darlingm]

I only read page 1 of this thread. If someone turns on silent running mode and is far enough out, they'll appear to vanish unless you catch up quite a bit. Probably people disconnecting, but wanted to mention it.

 

[hanks01]

There should be just one Interdictor, not classes with increasing difficulty. Just one. That said, Chaff should be one per ship. Shield Cell Banks should be one per ship, classed with your shields. Class 3 shields allows you one class 3 cell bank. Done. Stacking always causes trouble.
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I like the idea of one shield cell module per ship, it levels the playing field for combat orientated ships and can lead to epic battles (and less hit, hit, run away for 3 minutes etc) but I prefer that it doesn't have to be the same class as the Shield Generator as that punishes smaller ships. On my Viper I have an A3 shield with B2 shield cells, when I use a shield cell it probably charges around 2 rings of my shield or thereabouts. So as long as the scaling is there based on size and rating I think it still works well, otherwise I couldn't fit them and wouldn't even be able to more than a few seconds against bigger ships that have more fitting options.

 

[darlingm]

Perhaps the game could start out by giving you 1 disconnection protection. Once used, it will only regenerate after X amount of hours played. Max 1 disconnection protection at any time.

"X amount of hours played" would need to be calculated watching if the player is AFK for a while, and stopping counting. Otherwise someone could park themselves at or near a station overnight.

Leaves helping the legit disconnections protected (although I doubt there really are any legit ones at beginning of interdiction), but keeps the abusers from routinely abusing.

 

[Darian]

Do you complain and demand inreased penalties when the AI kills you? Why is it suddenly different because a human is in control?

People complain more when players do it because with the AI there is little chance that it does it for the LULZ (In other words, solely to annoy said player) While when an player does it and then more than once chances are like 100% he does it to see how much money that player has left until sidewinder and 1000 credits, thank you and back to the grind.

As long ED is designed that way that you can reduce a month playtime easy to back to start in open you will not have many people who consider ship destruction fun, at least not theese who want to fly something bigger than an cobra.

And that is my beef with Elite and open, you are either happy with an smaller ship that has an bearable insurance or you resign yourself to endless grinding if you want to know how an bigger ship looks from the inside.

Or you play solo and thus take the disatvantages an mmo balanced game has with the boring solo grind.

In other words, right now Elite is balanced to be played in nothing bigger than an cobra if you want to have fun without the grind.

 

[lexandro]

As said its a p2p system. There is no realistic way to stop someone with a configurable router disconnecting from one player while staying synchronised with the game. All these ideas for "penatly" systems simply wont be feasible.

@Darian; The ai is only doing for the lulz, there is no other reason for it to attack you. No it does not know you have cargo, far from it. Its as dumb as a post and will attack anyone regardless of craft or cargo status.