Introduce Systems where Mods are forbidden!

[Tarman]

I don't see a problem with this. It affects no-one except the people who want to have it, some of which aren't currently playing it seems. At last count there are probably enough available star systems to try this out for a while somewhere. We have industrial dictatorships ruled by pirate lords already for example, "no modified spacefaring vessels in our area of control" seems kind of reasonable by comparison. There are any number of justifications for a restriction like that, even putting aside that it's in 3303 where you can get shot for poor parking etiquette alone.

If it needs policing, unless it's got no local cops I can't imagine it would be too tough to create NPC interdictors aggressively scanning for hot rods. That's also lore-friendly and I would think tough to deal with if the police are properly kitted and mean enough. I wonder, would people living there allow the cops to be heavily modded in systems like that, sort of the Batman idea of fighting fire with fire, while civvies went nakies, so to speak? It seems also to fit to the setting and to deal with aggressive visitors who didn't want to take their shoes off in your house. I'm glad Truesilver is in the thread because he can tell me whether this works on an operational level better than I can.

I would also justify its inclusion by saying that we need MOAR types of these layers to the galaxy, so that it's a selection from the buffet and not an either/or choice from the menu. This reminds me somewhat of the ship pad size access topic, in that I feel having multiple variations of a concept suited for a wide range of available parameters instead of a single change to current gameplay could add more texture to the galaxy on an number of levels.

Each system can matter more to players both in the short and long term if it has a large possibility for its specific nature, and that's what we want, right? Better reasons to do the spaceman stuff we do in some really well-made spaceships. I support a diverse and textured galaxy where it's a good idea to know where you've ended up at any given moment, but also a place where you can find exactly the system you want to bookmark as home.

 

[Faybs]

Yes indeed. Also if it was one system as the OP proposes it would serve as a magnet for those seeking un-RNG-ineered PvP. We'd have a busy system, regulars, newcomers. We could store a ton of ships there and change our builds up at will.

It sounds pretty close to Nirvana to me but frankly I fear that FDev's Fun Police will think otherwise ...

It's more complicated than you think... first of all, how does one get into the system? the obvious answer is something similar to a permit - if you have any engineered systems (modules/weapons) then you're not allowed in. Problem is that permits are currently tied to the cmdr, not the ship, so a new kind of permit would have to be designed and implemented which is not just a simple database record on the server - now when you're trying to jump to a location you need to send to the server the ID of your current ship, and then based on that it would have to look it up on a different database to examine every single one of your installed modules and decide bsed on that if you can jump or not. Permits are also things that once set don't go away, so it's the sort of thing you can cache very aggressively because you know that once a player has it, they won't lose it. Well not any more - now every time the user goes into the galaxy map the server needs to do a database lookup (which means more time waiting for the the galaxy map to open), because someone looking to do mischief would be able to use stale cache data to allow themselves into the system with engineered modules (something along the lines of docking, restarting the client to force a cache flush, going into the galaxy map with unmodded weapons to load the cache - now the server knows you don't have any engineered modules, then quickly swapping in engineered guns, thrusters etc and jumping before the cache refreshes through timeout and the server realizes that you do actually have engineered stuff - the client-server equivalent of a magician moving the bead under the other cup while you're not looking). And that's getting into the system - once you're in you can just dock and order your engineered modules in through module transfer. Or for that matter an entire ship. This needs to be blocked, but right now there's no such thing as permits for transferred ships or modules, so that has to be designed and implemented too (the cheap alternative is that stations on these special star systems don't have shipyards or outfitting - not that great). OK, assume all of that is in - you're now in a wing of unmodded FDLs looking for trouble when you get interdicted by NPCs. Since you're in a wing of ships loaded for bear, the game spawns a wing of Elite ranked NPCs - which currently do get engineered modules. Nuts. Now the NPC spawning logic needs to be modified so that if you're in these special star systems, NPCs that would normally get engineered modules, won't. One thing I've been glossing over is how the game knows about "no engineering allowed" systems - that needs to be stored somewhere, because it's not physics/astronomy data like the star forge generates. It needs to be added manually and stored in a database because it's not procedurally generated, which means that the database schema for star systems needs to be updated - this is extra disk space needed on the galaxy servers, in a game that does not charge monthly subscriptions.

TL;DR: There are a lot of doors that need to be closed to prevent one from sneaking in engineered modules into one of these special star systems, which is the sort of thing the kind of cmdr that sneaks into mobius would do.

All that sounds like a tremendous amount of work just for a small group of star systems, and considering how long we've been asking for something as simple as a PvE mode that unconditionally ignores all damage done by any cmdr to any other cmdr, I don't think it's going to happen any time soon (since kills are credited to the right cmdr, the game already knows who each bullet/laser/whatever came from, so this would be a matter of simply ignoring the attack if it came from another cmdr, similarly to how some engineer special effects, eg smart rounds, already do).

 

[Lucifer Hate]

You're calling for removal of mods.
You want a level playing field.

That's CQC.
That's what it's for.

CQC is where piloting skillz and judgement of what to do with a base loadout are what count.

But no one actually wants a level playing field.


We make all these calls for "cheap rebuys" "PvP consent zones" "get rid of griefers" "this PvP meta is too OP" "level playing field"
And Frontier try to service those calls with CQC.


And we laugh at everyone who has any CQC rank.
We wear our HELPLESS 0% with pride.
So Frontier will devote no further developer resources to it.

And it will be pointless to ask for "all ships in CQC" which is basically what you want.
A space where ships of known characteristics can duke it out.
It will be pointless because CQC is going to wither on the vine.

Unused.


And we will continue to make calls for changes to PvP - for all the things they tried to provide with CQC.


We don't want to match each other and compete on a level playing field where the only thing that counts is skillz.
We want to bring the power that we earned through grinding and smash those weaker than us.

Except there are people that do not look at CQC as being part of Elite Dangerous. You see people say alot "if you want PVP go to CQC" but it is not true pvp in Elite as it has nothing to do with the ships we fly. Hell I look at CQC as more like the video game a pilot would play in a station bar while waiting for his ship to be loaded and repaired than I do as part of the game.

 

[thirstyfish]

This would be somehow equally much work as grinding the mods.
The check for the rules alone, would be pain in the . How can you even check, that someone did not mod their shields for example?

It would have to be on the honor system. Largely how Mobius works anyways. The only way to successfully show that someone opened fire on you is to a) let them destroy you and screenshot the rebuy screen. b) have video. c?) look into your game logs (not sure if or how it is shown here). Welcome to private groups and one of the several short comings.

 

[NW3]

It would have to be on the honor system. Largely how Mobius works anyways.

It need not be on the honor system.

Actually, I think all that's needed is a new type of scanner. (No need for permits or a single system limit.)

For maximum usefulness, I'd suggest a general-purpose scanner, similar to a cargo scanner, that lists all the modules in a ship, by type, size, grade, and level, with an [E] designation if the module has been engineered. (Even better: show the engineered icon, like it does elsewhere in the UI). Bonus points: List any particular engineered special effects.

Then you could have a private group and scan each other to verify compliance. Not everyone needs such a scanner; just a few referees would suffice. If someone violates the group's rules, evict them.

The scanner could be useful in other situations: Would this be a fair fight, or should I high-tail it out of here? Am I so overpowered in comparison, that I should let the small fry live? In a friendly situation, it would allow someone to advise another player regarding load-outs. For a duel, you could verify that both parties have the agreed upon load-outs. There are probably other uses too.

I've posted this in the Suggestions forum: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...uot-modules-quot-scanner?p=5338672#post533867

If you like this idea, you might want to mention that in the suggestion thread. I would think that would increase the chances that this scanner would be implemented.

Unfortunately, it will probably be awhile before the developers get around to implementing it. In the meantime, I recommend the private group, on the honor system.

 

[Faybs]

It need not be on the honor system.

Actually, I think all that's needed is a new type of scanner. (No need for permits or a single system limit.)

For maximum usefulness, I'd suggest a general-purpose scanner, similar to a cargo scanner, that lists all the modules in a ship, by type, size, grade, and level, with an [E] designation if the module has been engineered. (Even better: show the engineered icon, like it does elsewhere in the UI). Bonus points: List any particular engineered special effects.

Then you could have a private group and scan each other to verify compliance. Not everyone needs such a scanner; just a few referees would suffice. If someone violates the group's rules, evict them.

The scanner could be useful in other situations: Would this be a fair fight, or should I high-tail it out of here? Am I so overpowered in comparison, that I should let the small fry live? In a friendly situation, it would allow someone to advise another player regarding load-outs. For a duel, you could verify that both parties have the agreed upon load-outs. There are probably other uses too.

I've posted this in the Suggestions forum: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...uot-modules-quot-scanner?p=5338672#post533867

If you like this idea, you might want to mention that in the suggestion thread. I would think that would increase the chances that this scanner would be implemented.

Unfortunately, it will probably be awhile before the developers get around to implementing it. In the meantime, I recommend the private group, on the honor system.

Here's the downside to the scanner plan: unless you never engineer anything, it's very possible that you might log into the group while already on a ship that has engineered modules. If you then get scanned before you can dock and get your non-engineered ship, you've got some 'splaining to do. Sure, you could give offenders a couple of mulligans, but if you give too many then griefers will take advantage of that and if you give too few then you'll be kicking out people who mode switch a lot and forget what version of their favorite ship they're flying in.

Then again, if the expected membership of this group is people who just don't like the engineers game mechanic at all and won't ever use it, that should work just fine.

 

[NW3]

Here's the downside to the scanner plan: unless you never engineer anything, it's very possible that you might log into the group while already on a ship that has engineered modules. If you then get scanned before you can dock and get your non-engineered ship, you've got some 'splaining to do. Sure, you could give offenders a couple of mulligans, but if you give too many then griefers will take advantage of that and if you give too few then you'll be kicking out people who mode switch a lot and forget what version of their favorite ship they're flying in.

I would think that it would only matter if you got in a combat situation with your engineered ship.

The same situation applies to Mobius and Fleet Comm. I'm VERY careful to never shoot someone, when I'm in one of those groups. When you're in a group, you must respect the rules.

 

[Faybs]

I would think that it would only matter if you got in a combat situation with your engineered ship.

The same situation applies to Mobius and Fleet Comm. I'm VERY careful to never shoot someone, when I'm in one of those groups. When you're in a group, you must respect the rules.

Well, that's the case now because 90% of all engineering is combat focused, but other modules are starting to get the engineers treatment too. One that doesn't exist yet but it's obvious is a supercharged fuel scoop that consumes more power but scoops faster - I bet that someone like the buckyball racers would consider that to be a form of cheating.

I've never been in the Fleet Comm group, but I sometimes go into Mobius and always to events that don't require shooting (eg the ruins), precisely so I can avoid running afoul of the rules. I'm curious, what's Fleet Comm all about?

 

[Lngjohnsilver1]

The check for the rules alone, would be pain in the . How can you even check, that someone did not mod their shields for example?

This is an interesting psychodynamic question? The OP wants to know if they could have a MOD free system. The counter was 'create a group where everyone agrees not to use Mods'. The response is - how do you police this?

I suppose honour is dead.

One would hope that the dynamic is 'that everyone agrees'. While I am not being naive in assuming that this cannot be circumvented, the hope would be that, 'just because you can do a thing does not mean you choose to do a thing'. Why would someone be so petty as to join a private group where everyone agrees not to use mods - just to use mods and p*ss people off by doing so? What 'gain' is there for the transgressor? Some kind of childish satisfaction that they are 'pulling the wool over everyone's eyes?' I just think its pretty lame.

So...In conclusion and in repent to the original OP - I guess its a consensual thing on a private group. I suppose you just need to be sure that the members you allow join are indeed mentally older than 6.

 

[Faybs]

I suppose honour is dead.

You forget what game you're playing... if you can do something without alt-tabbing out of the game, then as far as the devs are concerned it's legal - and a lot of the player base agrees with this. That specifically includes going into a rules-based private group with the express intent of breaking those rules, as we saw with Mobius. Therefore rule enforcement is up to the members of the group.

 

[NW3]

I'm curious, what's Fleet Comm all about?

Exploring. It's basically the players that went to Beagle Point in the Distant Worlds Expedition and more recently the Distant Stars Expedition. You have to promise not to attack other members, much like Mobius. I usually play in Solo and use Fleet Comm when I'm off exploring. It gets lonely out there and sometimes we join up for a while, if we're ever within a few K lyrs.

 

[Mystify]

It's more complicated than you think...

How about that idea, that all mods get automatically disabled when you enter the system?

The story explanation could be a special kind of Sun for example.

And if you "hardcode" that in the client, there would no be much server requesting necessary I guess.

 

[Faybs]

Exploring. It's basically the players that went to Beagle Point in the Distant Worlds Expedition and more recently the Distant Stars Expedition. You have to promise not to attack other members, much like Mobius. I usually play in Solo and use Fleet Comm when I'm off exploring. It gets lonely out there and sometimes we join up for a while, if we're ever within a few K lyrs.

Ah, I see. I'm not much of an explorer - I think the furthest I've gone out is about 6KLY, I wanted to see what the far side of Barnard's loop looks like - but I always do it in solo because I take just minimal shields. I'm basically waiting for FDev to give us more to do than honk and scan when going far out, I can never last more than a week or so of the monotony.

- - - Updated - - -

How about that idea, that all mods get automatically disabled when you enter the system?

The story explanation could be a special kind of Sun for example.

And if you "hardcode" that in the client, there would no be much server requesting necessary I guess.

Hardcoding stuff means introducing exceptions to rules. Often one place is not enough, you need to add the exception to a few different places, and if you fix bugs in there that might affect the exception (or a new feature adds a new place you need to add the exception to) you have to remember to update everywhere. Otherwise you will get odd behavior that's really hard to diagnose unless you know the full history of the code (imagine being the new guy and you're asked to implement a new engineer mod, and you're tearing your hair out trying to figure out why it works everywhere except in this one star system)

 

[Itaki]

Hello everyone,

I am part of a PVP focused clan. PVE in ED was never something, that I was having a lot of fun with.
However, cycling through the galaxy with my friends (or alone) searching for an exciting PVP encounter was always great fun.

But since the Engineers update, that has changed a lot.
Not enough, that you are now doomed to do a whole lot of PVE content to stay competetive - even when you do, you have no clue why you won or lost a fight, becuase you have no clue, what exact mod-layout your opponent was using. Our clan is now wasting a whole lot of time grinding for some mod . All that time we would have used for fun journeys through the galaxy together, in the good old days.

But I do understand, that the whole engineering part may be fun for a lot of people.
So I suppose the following:
Introduce one or several systems, that you can only enter, with ships that do not use a single modded component.
Forbid ship transfers within those systems.
Create a meaningful story around that.
This alone would give clans like mine some fun back, that made ED so great before the holy grind for mods.

What would you guys think about that?
Is there any major drawback I did not consider?

People say if you need some content in ED that you should just 'use your imagination.' Don't know if that is helpful or not (lol).

 

[Truesilver]

This is an interesting psychodynamic question? The OP wants to know if they could have a MOD free system. The counter was 'create a group where everyone agrees not to use Mods'. The response is - how do you police this?

I suppose honour is dead.

One would hope that the dynamic is 'that everyone agrees'.

I think what we're driving at is how a 'vanilla' PvP system could evolve beyond being something a group of friends or handful of known forum-types could use, into something that could potentially invite participation from anyone amongst the whole 2 million players who have bought the game.

As matters stand, it's perfectly normal for PvP group members to duel amongst themselves vanilla. Although rare, it's also perfectly feasible to agree to a vanilla duel with a guy you meet in game or on the forums. In those circumstances obviously you have little to fear in terms of foul play.

But this being the internet, where it would get more tricky is if you just throw up a notice saying, "Hey everyone, let's all fight vanilla at System X."

Although (speaking as an experienced 1v1 duellist myself) the vast majority of players are friendly and honourable, there are a few exceptions out there and some of them I have no doubt would love to turn up with a bunch of 'subtle' mods, such as defensive / power distributor, things not easily detected, just to get a good Kill-Death ratio. It's a power thing and this is a game in which power-tripping Sidey-Slaughters and combat loggers do exist amongst the lowest echelons of the PvP community (many of whom have second accounts, so couldn't even be detected by name).

All that said I'm sure such incidents would be rare and, frankly, not much of a worry. But I still think it would be nice if Frontier facilitated what the OP proposes.

 

[starman]

Do mods have to sit an exam? How do you become a mod? Mods seem to enjoy giving instants bans infractions and seem highly selective who gets modded.

This forum is being subjected to academic study. Its all about power.

Publically posted this is risky. But its a test on censorship.

Many lurkers here.

 

[Lngjohnsilver1]

I think what we're driving at is how a 'vanilla' PvP system could evolve beyond being something a group of friends or handful of known forum-types could use, into something that could potentially invite participation from anyone amongst the whole 2 million players who have bought the game.

As matters stand, it's perfectly normal for PvP group members to duel amongst themselves vanilla. Although rare, it's also perfectly feasible to agree to a vanilla duel with a guy you meet in game or on the forums. In those circumstances obviously you have little to fear in terms of foul play.

But this being the internet, where it would get more tricky is if you just throw up a notice saying, "Hey everyone, let's all fight vanilla at System X."

Although (speaking as an experienced 1v1 duellist myself) the vast majority of players are friendly and honourable, there are a few exceptions out there and some of them I have no doubt would love to turn up with a bunch of 'subtle' mods, such as defensive / power distributor, things not easily detected, just to get a good Kill-Death ratio. It's a power thing and this is a game in which power-tripping Sidey-Slaughters and combat loggers do exist amongst the lowest echelons of the PvP community (many of whom have second accounts, so couldn't even be detected by name).

All that said I'm sure such incidents would be rare and, frankly, not much of a worry. But I still think it would be nice if Frontier facilitated what the OP proposes.

Much respect to this ^^.

I get your point. My point was that this would be a 'by invite private group' affair and not an 'open' affair by virtue of the issues discussed. But yes, you raise valid points. And when in open it al turns to custard anyways...[where is it]

 

[Faybs]

How about that idea, that all mods get automatically disabled when you enter the system?

The story explanation could be a special kind of Sun for example.

And if you "hardcode" that in the client, there would no be much server requesting necessary I guess.

I did think about disabling all mods on entry, but if you do that there's a possibility that as soon as you enter, you'll be in a ship that doesn't have enough power and without a large enough FSD to escape it (example: an explorer who's outfit for low weight, he'd use the smallest power plant he could, modded for extra juice, and D rated everything including FSD, also modded for range)

 

[thirstyfish]

It need not be on the honor system.

Actually, I think all that's needed is a new type of scanner. (No need for permits or a single system limit.)

For maximum usefulness, I'd suggest a general-purpose scanner, similar to a cargo scanner, that lists all the modules in a ship, by type, size, grade, and level, with an [E] designation if the module has been engineered. (Even better: show the engineered icon, like it does elsewhere in the UI). Bonus points: List any particular engineered special effects.

Then you could have a private group and scan each other to verify compliance. Not everyone needs such a scanner; just a few referees would suffice. If someone violates the group's rules, evict them.

The scanner could be useful in other situations: Would this be a fair fight, or should I high-tail it out of here? Am I so overpowered in comparison, that I should let the small fry live? In a friendly situation, it would allow someone to advise another player regarding load-outs. For a duel, you could verify that both parties have the agreed upon load-outs. There are probably other uses too.

I've posted this in the Suggestions forum: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...uot-modules-quot-scanner?p=5338672#post533867

If you like this idea, you might want to mention that in the suggestion thread. I would think that would increase the chances that this scanner would be implemented.

Unfortunately, it will probably be awhile before the developers get around to implementing it. In the meantime, I recommend the private group, on the honor system.

Oh please, FD would give an Open PVE mode before this. And that isn't happening either.

 

[Kosmetas]

I think ships with hard points above small make it too hard to stay competitive. All that grinding to get the higher gear is immersion breaking and tedious. I understand others love going around and getting bigger and better stuff, but not me and my friends. If only we could have a few systems with ships limited to small hard mounts we would be so much happier. Can FD make a few systems for us also when they make OPs systems, that would be great.

Yeah, and can all the ships be blue... oh wait can you make it so ships that don't meet our requirements can't get in, like those cool permit systems?