Ships Introducing the Diamondback Explorer

[Rall]

Using the ship as a cargo hauler never even entered my mind. The T6 does a much better job at that and cost less.

The asp is roughly 4 mil more as a base price, and to outfit similarly for combat (A rated gear) is roughly 2 times more than the Diamondback Explorer (Asp runs into 40 mil territory). And if ED Shipyard is anything to go by, if they are equipped for either exploring or combat jump ranges are similar. If anything I would argue that as an explorer, it almost makes the Asp obsolete as it is a cheaper alternative and there isn't much reason to progress further ship-wise if exploring is your main thing. BTW, my setup on my Asp is currently at 22 or 23 mil. Setting up a DBE for solid exploring is in the neighborhood of 11 mil. If the DBE can go everywhere that the Asp can exploring, then what is the point in buying a ship that costs more?

The Asp was great when it was the only game in town that could go a little over 30ly and multiple jumps at a time with its 32t fuel tank. Now the DBE offers the same capability at a fraction of the cost. The main reason people in this section are knocking it is that it doesn't allow for a class 5 fuel scoop (to be on the same level as the FSD) and that using a class 4 takes slightly longer....

Between the Asp and the DBE, its definitely the Asp that needs the buff in weight reduction to give it a slight edge on the explorer front. A slight buff in the pitch of the DBE based on what I have read regarding the ship would be great, but if it got a weight reduction to give it a stand out quality for range under FSD I wouldn't be upset either. I just think that it would pretty much make the Asp pointless from an exploration perspective if the DBE can go everywhere the Asp can. FD could play with the buff for an Asp under the Galnet as Lakon doing some retrofit upgrade to customer ships or something like that.

Edit to add: The DBE already stands out at its price point for jump range. Everything below it, including the Cobra, has a shorter jump range.

The Asp can fit a Class 6 fuel scoop by the way.

The Asp is a much bigger ship with heavier armour, so why is its Hull mass lighter than the explorer? My issue is why stay with the Explorer once you can afford an Asp, it becomes a redundant ship. Giving the Explorer a better jump range doesn't make the Asp useless, the Asp is still a better combatant, trader and long endurance explorer.

At least give the Explorer the best jump range in the game, because it's pretty I'll suited to anything other than exploring.

 

[Rall]

Indeed. But did it ever occur to you that a T-6 also out performs the DBE at exploring? The T-6 jumps almost as far as the DBE, slots an oversized fuel scoop, can slot massive repair modules, and can boost to 406 to make sure your data gets home safely. And it costs half as much as the DBE. There's a lot to like. It also has superior visibility. The only thing a DBE can do better at exploring is heat management. That doesn't really come into play on the T-6 however because it can scoop so damn fast.

Until il we need to brings guns into the black a 1M CR T-6 will always be preferable to a 2M CR DBE. Except maybe for screen shots. And even then, the T-6 is a good looking ship as well.

If it's supposed to be a combat/explorer is need a serious buff to shields, speed and agility - they need to be on par with an Asp at the very least.

As slow and clumsy as it is now, it's just a target. I doubt it could even successfully engage a Viper or Courier because it such a poor turner, and even if it could they'd boost away laughing. An Asp will be able to outlast it in combat, due to better power and internals and it'll get absolutely wrecked by a Vulture.

It's a combat ship that's going to be no good at combat.

 

[Nerdicus]

This is more of a variant in name only, the geometry, although similar is actually different. It's essentially a whole new ship (1.5 times longer in length for a start) and thus it takes as long to make as any other ship would. Basically it's not just a diamondback with different stats if that's what you're thinking by variant ships.

Thank You Mike. For us part-time players (5 to 7 hours a week), it makes the grind to an FDL/Python a hell of a lot less monotonous. I thought I'd be in that Vulture cockpit for a least a month doing the RES grind.

 

[jabberwalkie]

Indeed. But did it ever occur to you that a T-6 also out performs the DBE at exploring? The T-6 jumps almost as far as the DBE, slots an oversized fuel scoop, can slot massive repair modules, and can boost to 406 to make sure your data gets home safely. And it costs half as much as the DBE. There's a lot to like. It also has superior visibility. The only thing a DBE can do better at exploring is heat management. That doesn't really come into play on the T-6 however because it can scoop so damn fast.

Until il we need to brings guns into the black a 1M CR T-6 will always be preferable to a 2M CR DBE. Except maybe for screen shots. And even then, the T-6 is a good looking ship as well.

We already discussed this earlier. The DBE has a further jump range, albeit marginally, than the T6. That means that when going to harder to reach areas, the advantage falls to the DBE. The DBE also has access to a larger tank (by default) which comes in handy if you run into a patch of stars you can't scoop from, and again advantage falls to DBE. Also, even though you can add tanks onto ships in 1.3, weight becomes a concern and decreases the jump distance available. The advantage again falls to the DBE there with its 32t fuel tank stock. Visibility really isn't a big deal when exploring honestly. Visibility is more important for fighters when trying to keep track of the enemy, even then the radar makes up for any visibility issues. I've already made my opinion of repair modules well, well known when the [now] Scout came out. But in case you missed it, they are not required. I've also made my opinion of the supposed fuel scoop class being only a 4 well known as well.

I have a T6 that I use for CG's occasionally and it is a brick. Far from being attractive, but it is definitely more aesthetically pleasing than the T7 and it does what I need it to do when it isn't sitting in the star port gathering dust and cobwebs.

The Asp is a much bigger ship with heavier armour, so why is its Hull mass lighter than the explorer? My issue is why stay with the Explorer once you can afford an Asp, it becomes a redundant ship. Giving the Explorer a better jump range doens't make the Asp useless, the Asp is still a better combatant, trader and long endurance explorer.

At least give the Explorer the best jump range in the game, because it's pretty Ill suited to anything other than exploring.

Look at the question from the inverse: Why stay with the Asp if the Explorer can go to the same places and cost less? Like I said, I am looking at this from the perspective as an explorer. The Asp is superior in trade and combat for sure, but not the point I was getting at and the Asp also costs more so I would expect it to be able to do more. Also, armor doesn't matter too much when you can snipe modules on the ship like the power plant and destroy the ship with ease. Until Thargoids or NPC's start attacking explorers like they did before, for exploring the Asp is redundant. Yes I know it came afterward, but if it does the same job exploring and can go to the same places why invest in a more expensive platform?

And as to a 6A fuel scoop being able to fit to the Asp, so what? A 6A scoop costs what, like 28 mil? That scoop alone costs more than my entire build on my Asp with a 5A scoop that costs 9 mil roughly.

If it's supposed to be a combat/explorer is need a serious buff to shields, speed and agility - they need to be on par with an Asp at the very least.

I would be agreeable to a slight boost in speed and agility, it is a smaller ship anyways. But no, it does not need to be on par with Asp as that would just make the Asp even more pointless leaving the only major advantage that the Asp would have over the DBE is in the number of weapons it can bring to face the enemy.

I'll leave this here, as it is applicable to both of your posts Rall: Why get two variants of the Diamondback instead of modifying the original module layout to accommodate the slight buff; is it not because the two ships fulfill two different roles?

 

[Murishani]

Read through the thread and read all the arguments both ways, and I have to say while I see all the points, I don't think any of it matters. Don't get me wrong I'm thankful that frontier gave us a new ship, I'm glad that its not just a slight variant of another ship. That's all good stuff. Im not concerned with the fuel scoop, or the FSD, or the armor or the shields or any of it. Itll fly, itll explore, itll do other stuff, just like all the other ships will.

What bothers me is that we now have two ships called "explorers" that aren't. I've said it before and I'll say it again. There are three main 'professions' in Elite Dangerous, as evidenced by our ranks: Trader, Combat, and Explorer.
We have dedicated ships to trade that while they can be outfitted for combat, will never truly be combat ships. We also have dedicated combat ships, that while they can have storage racks, will never be trading ships. We have all rounders that can be nudged in multiple directions to do multi-role. That's all amazing and my hats off to frontier for it.

My question however is: If we can have dedicated traders, dedicated fighters, and multi-role ships, why cant we have a truly dedicated explorer? Not even one? Why all the gun mounts? Why all the extraneous stuff that isnt used for most exploration? Why does every other profession or role in the game get a dedicated ship while explorers are forced to eat the leftovers of other professions by retrofitting multi-roles or cargo vessels into explorers?

I think the problem that is being argued back and forth in this thread isnt really "why doesnt it have ____", it's: "why isn't it a dedicated explorer?". Can we seriously not get a large jump range, decent tank size, minimally slotted ship whos only purpose is to jump 40+ ly, carry two scanners, maybe one heatsink, and a shield? Theres lots of sacrifices we can make to balance out a ship who's sole purpose is to move great distances quickly and put scanners on a target. Why does everyone else get something specifically for their profession (i.e. T9, T7, T6, Vulture, Viper, etc.) and yet explorers are left putting our ships together from parts?

I love the new ships, truly, even if I wont use them. My problem isnt with how they have been statted or how they are being presented, my problem is why the explorer community continues to be the tacked on extra component in a universe seemingly built to be explored. Seriously you must be using a TON of resources to manage this simulation, why do that when all you're giving people is no reason to explore, and every reason to stay in the bubble?

 

[Rugged Malone]

What bothers me is that we now have two ships called "explorers" that aren't. I've said it before and I'll say it again. There are three main 'professions' in Elite Dangerous, as evidenced by our ranks: Trader, Combat, and Explorer.
We have dedicated ships to trade that while they can be outfitted for combat, will never truly be combat ships. We also have dedicated combat ships, that while they can have storage racks, will never be trading ships. We have all rounders that can be nudged in multiple directions to do multi-role. That's all amazing and my hats off to frontier for it.

My question however is: If we can have dedicated traders, dedicated fighters, and multi-role ships, why cant we have a truly dedicated explorer? Not even one? Why all the gun mounts? Why all the extraneous stuff that isnt used for most exploration? Why does every other profession or role in the game get a dedicated ship while explorers are forced to eat the leftovers of other professions by retrofitting multi-roles or cargo vessels into explorers?

I really like the idea of a dedicated exploration ship; something really dramatically optimized for exploring would be very cool. I'd add some kind of buff to supercruise (either in top speed, or even better make it less affected by nearby bodies) which is really the biggest thing I'd want in an explorer.

Weapons might still be important, though, once deep space is populated by 'goids.

 

[Nagual]

I really like the DBE, it's nippy; turns well; good distance on a full tank. Hell, stick in a second tank, and you'll go for miles and miles and miles....

 

[Schattenbogen]

Why do "exploration" ship never have 2 class 1 modules in order to optimize the other modules ?

Or ... introducing the "Advanced Multi Spectral-Scanner"
A class 2C module which combine "Advanced Discovery Scanner" and "Detailed Surface Scanner" for a mass of only 3 tons and the "modique somme" of 2.2M credits.

 

[InMemoriamSirocco]

Why do "exploration" ship never have 2 class 1 modules in order to optimize the other modules ?

Or ... introducing the "Advanced Multi Spectral-Scanner"
A class 2C module which combine "Advanced Discovery Scanner" and "Detailed Surface Scanner" for a mass of only 3 tons and the "modique somme" of 2.2M credits.

Interesting question, actually. You would think that a ship branded "Explorer" would have at least two size 1 slots for the scanners, and one internal slot that is one size above FSD size, intended for the fuel scoop. Then at least two to three other slots for a shield, AFMU and/or additional fuel tanks.

Apparently "Explorer" ships are built by people who have never asked an actual explorer what he wishes for in an exploration vessel.

 

[orfeboy]

So we are now getting 2 ships that are almost identical? From what I see from those pictures they are exactly the same ship except for a slightly extended cockpit.

This means that we will actually get 1 less ship in reality. So what ship got canceled from the list that forced this decision?

 

[Schattenbogen]

And you forgot the possibility to have refuel limpet in case you do exploring with friends and would like to be able to refuel him in case of some problems while doing exploration.
Which by the way mean it would be good to have combined "Fuel limpets + Fuel" modules, in the same way which are used today on F-18E/F Hornet by example :

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:F-18_Buddy_Refueling.jpg

 

[Zulu Romeo]

If I read this right, the Diamondback Explorer's mass is actually greater than that of the Asp, despite having fewer internals, some smaller essential compartments, a lower hull rating, and hardpoints that carry the same maximum mass of weapons as the Asp, not to mention being able to land on a small pad.

 

[metalslug]

For those of you unhappy with the DbE, what is it that you are wanting from it that you don't already get from the Asp?

a change?

 

[metalslug]

Not sure why you appear to disagree with me here as this is time lost in transit that can be used for scanning systems.... Since time lost is a critical component of your argument.


And capacity directly impacts the amount of jumps you can make between systems before having to refuel. Less mileage out of the tank means more time spent refueling.....

edit to add: You can write another argument summary if you want to air your grievances if you want. I'll probably skip it.

no, you really just don't get it at all. as if refuelling the whole tank in one go would not take time, OMG. it's about scooping as much as possible while your FSD cools down, this is called efficient. if you never scoop until your tank is empty you are even slower.

 

[metalslug]

So we are now getting 2 ships that are almost identical? From what I see from those pictures they are exactly the same ship except for a slightly extended cockpit.

This means that we will actually get 1 less ship in reality. So what ship got canceled from the list that forced this decision?

a bit lame if you ask me. they take the worries from some of the players for DN, rename the ship to "scout" because it's an awful explorer instead of listening to the community. Then they take the opportunity and just add a copy paste version of the ship, again make it not very good, but a bit better, given that, and have one ship off their promised list. cheap.

if at least some efford had been made to make it somewhat more original in looks, but this is really only a slightly longer cockpit and different color tone, nothing else has changed. if it really would look like like the concept art which i loved, as announced in the OP, I would buy it for the looks and enjoy it for that

 

[Starender]

you guys have some good points, but remember the price: 2 millions

for the price, it's a wonder
for pve/solo/private group, it's also a wonder

for exploration it's a good ship, not the best but a very good one, WITH extreme firepower it still can jump 28-31 Ly

ok it's not the perfect exploration ship that people wanted, and it will never be a safe choice for pvp, but for only 2 millions it is truly impressive

 

[Rall]

a bit lame if you ask me. they take the worries from some of the players for DN, rename the ship to "scout" because it's an awful explorer instead of listening to the community. Then they take the opportunity and just add a copy paste version of the ship, again make it not very good, but a bit better, given that, and have one ship off their promised list. cheap.

if at least some efford had been made to make it somewhat more original in looks, but this is really only a slightly longer cockpit and different color tone, nothing else has changed. if it really would look like like the concept art which i loved, as announced in the OP, I would buy it for the looks and enjoy it for that

The models are actually pretty different when you see them in game, so it would have been a fair amount of work to make them. So not something you can't whip up in a week, the varients would have been planned all along.

- - - Updated - - -

you guys have some good points, but remember the price: 2 millions

for the price, it's a wonder
for pve/solo/private group, it's also a wonder

for exploration it's a good ship, not the best but a very good one, WITH extreme firepower it still can jump 28-31 Ly

ok it's not the perfect exploration ship that people wanted, and it will never be a safe choice for pvp, but for only 2 millions it is truly impressive

Fire power is okay, but the class 4 distro means it can't really take full advantage of the large hard point.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

… and it will never be a safe choice for pvp, but for only 2 millions it is truly impressive

From what I've read it's so close to be a really good ship for missions that often require hauling cargo somewhere while being able to defend itself and maybe do a bit of bounty hunting. It could be an interesting choice for trading CGs - long jump range and some cargo would result in good profits/time (without using really big ships). It could have been the one ship for someone who doesn't want to fly big ships. So close. :/

It could be like that ship you describe in your sig. just one class smaller.

 

[Poseidal]

Fire power is okay, but the class 4 distro means it can't really take full advantage of the large hard point.

Same distro as the Asp though, and 4 smalls are more energy hungry (with the same weapon types) than the large. Of course, there are more kinetics to run on medium/smalls than on larges, so you're stuck with lasers/PAs unless you want the really slow cannon.

 

[Ziljan]

My question however is: If we can have dedicated traders, dedicated fighters, and multi-role ships, why cant we have a truly dedicated explorer? Not even one? Why all the gun mounts? Why all the extraneous stuff that isnt used for most exploration? Why does every other profession or role in the game get a dedicated ship while explorers are forced to eat the leftovers of other professions by retrofitting multi-roles or cargo vessels into explorers?

I think the problem that is being argued back and forth in this thread isnt really "why doesnt it have ____", it's: "why isn't it a dedicated explorer?". Can we seriously not get a large jump range, decent tank size, minimally slotted ship whos only purpose is to jump 40+ ly, carry two scanners, maybe one heatsink, and a shield? Theres lots of sacrifices we can make to balance out a ship who's sole purpose is to move great distances quickly and put scanners on a target. Why does everyone else get something specifically for their profession (i.e. T9, T7, T6, Vulture, Viper, etc.) and yet explorers are left putting our ships together from parts?

I love the new ships, truly, even if I wont use them. My problem isnt with how they have been statted or how they are being presented, my problem is why the explorer community continues to be the tacked on extra component in a universe seemingly built to be explored. Seriously you must be using a TON of resources to manage this simulation, why do that when all you're giving people is no reason to explore, and every reason to stay in the bubble?

Best post in thread. If you read nothing else. Read this quote by Murishani.