Ships Introducing the Diamondback Explorer

[Libluini]

What bothers me, however, is that we don't actually need new explorers at all right now. We have cheap Hauler at entry level. Then there is Cobra which is pretty damn good ship for exploration, as well as T6. Then there is an Asp, and finally jump king Anaconda. While exploration comes down to scanning celestial bodies and nothing else, currently available ships are having it pretty well covered.

Now this is stupid. By the same logic we could take out some of the combat ships, too. The multi-role ships are good enough, after all. Why do we have an Eagle if we can use a Sidewinder instead? Why a Viper if we can take a Cobra?

Why not take all ships out and just leave the old Mk.3 Cobra in, like back in the 80s?

Seriously, people complaining about getting more content always strike me as quite mad...

 

[puca]

In your scenario, the trader would be a victim of him/herself for not selecting a tool that can adequately do the job they are looking for. So the blame rests squarely on the trader in your scenario.

The questions you should be asking are what does the Asp offer that the DBE doesn't, or if the a DBE seemingly go the same places the Asp can then why buy an Asp? The obvious answers are larger fuel scoop, more shields/armor, and more guns on the platform if they are ever needed. But for some, I'd bet that the incentive to buy an Asp has diminished somewhat.

The asp has fast travel time, and module room. The DBE almost matches the asp jump range, but will take 20% longer to get anywhere if you just travel and not scan. The asp also has module room for "shenanigans" (for example, you can kit an asp exploration vessel to help stranded vessels refuel, the DBE has no room for that and usual explorer stuff). The asp turns faster in supercruise. The asp is a better combat explorer. The asp is much faster outside supercruise.

The real competition for the DBE is not the asp, it's the type 6. Obviously the asp will be better, it's more than twice the price. It's like comparing the type 7 to a type 9.

---

What the DBE supporters don't seem to understand is the DBE is only an acceptable ship if you always always always scan. If at any point you stop doing that for whatever reason (say you go through a patch of boring icy brown dwarf systems), the DBE immediately starts sucking. If I don't always scan, I would take the type 6 until I can afford the asp.

 

[InMemoriamSirocco]

The criteria I choose to look for in a ship I would call good enough for exploration are:


1. Is the jump range at least high enough to reach the Core, if not the Rim? (20-30ly?)
2. How many maximum range jumps can it do on one tank filling? (the more the better)
3. With the biggest and best scoop fitted, does the tank fill up in under 1 minute or not? (if not: bad)
4. I need Heat Sinks and at least one AFMU for good measure in case of emergency. Is there room for that?
5. Can I outrun attackers without taking too much damage? Is the ship either fast enough or well shielded enough? Can I still fit a shield when running with scanners, fuel scoop and AFMU?

The Diamondback Explorer looks better than the Asp in my eyes, because it can fit big guns and be outfitted for combat/exploration and have an even larger jump range than an Asp that is outfitted for the same tasks.

The only thing that irritates me is that there aren't two size 1 general purpose slots, and that you can fit a fuel scoop that will fill a 16 ton tank in under one minute, but not a 32 ton tank. Very strange design decisions when building a dedicated explorer vessel.

 

[Varrag]

Now this is stupid. By the same logic we could take out some of the combat ships, too. The multi-role ships are good enough, after all. Why do we have an Eagle if we can use a Sidewinder instead? Why a Viper if we can take a Cobra?

Why not take all ships out and just leave the old Mk.3 Cobra in, like back in the 80s?

Seriously, people complaining about getting more content always strike me as quite mad...

I don't think that your comparison between multiroles and specialized combat ships on one hand, and ships widely used for explration on the other makes much sense.

Also, there is no need to be rude. If you want to exchange that kind of "stupid", "mad" etc arguments, you better look up for someone willing to talk on that level, because I am not interested.

 

[puca]

3. With the biggest and best scoop fitted, does the tank fill up in under 1 minute or not? (if not: bad)

The Diamondback Explorer looks better than the Asp in my eyes

The DBE fills its tank in 2 minutes, not 1.

 

[Poseidal]

The Diamondback Explorer looks better than the Asp in my eyes, because it can fit big guns and be outfitted for combat/exploration and have an even larger jump range than an Asp that is outfitted for the same tasks.

The only thing that irritates me is that there aren't two size 1 general purpose slots, and that you can fit a fuel scoop that will fill a 16 ton tank in under one minute, but not a 32 ton tank. Very strange design decisions when building a dedicated explorer vessel.

It is a less spacy vessel than the Asp, so can't fit the fuel scoop.

I'm not sure it does outgun the Asp, as four small hardpoints is more damage against shields than one large* (for the same mass!).

Two class 1 slots is kind of min-maxy. The question is where in the ship these would go as well. We also don't feed our commanders, but if we did, you would want the size to store supplies of various types.

*From the damage tests done earlier, a class of weapon often does 1.5 times the damage of one the previous class of the same type. If small hardpoints were rated at '1', a large would only be 2.25 - lower than 4 from four small hardpoints.

 

[Varrag]

The DBE fills its tank in 2 minutes, not 1.

Isn't it 1:33 according to EDshipyard?

 

[jabberwalkie]

The asp has fast travel time, and module room. The DBE almost matches the asp jump range, but will take 20% longer to get anywhere if you just travel and not scan. The asp also has module room for "shenanigans" (for example, you can kit an asp exploration vessel to help stranded vessels refuel, the DBE has no room for that and usual explorer stuff). The asp turns faster in supercruise. The asp is a better combat explorer. The asp is much faster outside supercruise.

Not everyone is as concerned about time like you, please remember that. The shenanigans modules is an interesting thing to bring up though, as that's not essential to exploring. Though I still believe that a case can be made that they aren't essential, you can still fit in an afmu iirc.

You are essentially telling me that the ship is just as effective at exploring as the Asp. Even when outfitted in full combat get up, they have similar jump ranges. Why progress, purchase, an Asp if the DBE can go the same places as the Asp?

The real competition for the DBE is not the asp, it's the type 6.

It isn't half the gun platform the DBE is, you have to see that. And if combat exploring becomes a role in the future of the game, the T6 will fall short in that area.

 

[jabberwalkie]

What the DBE supporters don't seem to understand is the DBE is only an acceptable ship if you always always always scan. If at any point you stop doing that for whatever reason (say you go through a patch of boring icy brown dwarf systems), the DBE immediately starts sucking. If I don't always scan, I would take the type 6 until I can afford the asp.

You and I established earlier that the T6 has the shorter jump range. In a patch of brown dwarfs, the DBE offers the option to try and jump beyond that faster through more distance covered.

 

[Libluini]

I don't think that your comparison between multiroles and specialized combat ships on one hand, and ships widely used for explration on the other makes much sense.

Also, there is no need to be rude. If you want to exchange that kind of "stupid", "mad" etc arguments, you better look up for someone willing to talk on that level, because I am not interested.

That was just your argument, with different ships. If you say it doesn't make sense, you essentially say your own argument doesn't make sense.

Do you see now why I used the word "stupid"? I wasn't rude, I just made a factual observation.

 

[puca]

You are essentially telling me that the ship is just as effective at exploring as the Asp. Even when outfitted in full combat get up, they have similar jump ranges. Why progress, purchase, an Asp if the DBE can go the same places as the Asp?

Listen, if you don't care about travel time, why don't you fit a 1E scoop when you explore?

The reason you don't is you _do_ care about travel time. You just stop caring earlier than me. The point at which you should stop worrying about scooping speed is a matter of opinion (similarly to how combat pilots may at some point stop worrying about MJ of their shields in favor of other things). But all other things being equal, more scooping speed is better, just like more shields is better for a combat pilot, and more cargo is better for a trader.

Saying that the DBE is just as good at exploration as the asp is sort of like saying that the type 7 is just as good at trading as the type 9. Sure, that's true if you don't care about cargo room, or credits / hour. But then "better" and "just as good" become meaningless. If you don't care about actual ship performance, just fly what looks good to you, and have fun. But don't talk about "better" or "worse."

 

[jabberwalkie]

Listen, if you don't care about travel time, why don't you fit a 1E scoop when you explore?

What makes you think I haven't? Just don't play it off like time is a a concern in the decision making of everyone exploring, or something that we should all be concerned with.

FTR, I have purposefully downgraded my fuel scoop in the past to be able to equip other modules of higher quality.

 

[emacinnes]

If you make the DBe as good at exploring as the Asp is, in terms of scoop time, then what's the point of the Asp? The DBe is 1/3rd the cost, so it should be a little heavier and a little slower, and worse at scooping, or the 4 million credit upgrade from the DBe to the Asp is meaningless. The only thing here is that it's new, and people with Asps want it to be better than what they have currently.

Doesn't mean we won't get a ship later that's better than the Asp, but there's a big jump from a Cobra to the Asp for an explorer, and this fills a gap, quite nicely. Want to go out 10,000LY, plan ahead

 

[Libluini]

Listen, if you don't care about travel time, why don't you fit a 1E scoop when you explore?

The reason you don't is you _do_ care about travel time. You just stop caring earlier than me. The point at which you should stop worrying about scooping speed is a matter of opinion (similarly to how combat pilots may at some point stop worrying about MJ of their shields in favor of other things). But all other things being equal, more scooping speed is better, just like more shields is better for a combat pilot, and more cargo is better for a trader.

Saying that the DBE is just as good at exploration as the asp is sort of like saying that the type 7 is just as good at trading as the type 9. Sure, that's true if you don't care about cargo room, or credits / hour. But then "better" and "just as good" become meaningless. If you don't care about actual ship performance, just fly what looks good to you, and have fun. But don't talk about "better" or "worse."

To be fair, the Diamondback E can be heavily armed and still get up to 32 ly / jump with some creative fitting. If you try this with the Asp, you get either a bad combat fit or less range then the DBE. The Asp is a better explorer, but if you expect opposition, I'd go with the Diamondback E instead. Or, to phrase that differently, when Frontier introduces Thargoids, I'd prefer the DBE to go visit them and still use my Asp to explore the outer reaches of the galaxy.

The DBE is good if you don't need to travel far, the Asp is more for long-range exploration.

 

[puca]

What makes you think I haven't?

Ok, since you said you fit a 1E scoop, I challenge you to do a long trip (say to Sag A*, but any destination will do) in a ship of your choosing with a 1E scoop. I also challenge you to hit trader elite in a stock sidewinder.

These types of challenges seem like nice gameplay for someone who cares as little about how ingame time is spent as you.

 

[Ziljan]

It's a mystery why people are defending an undersized scoop on an explorer ship. No other ship in the game has undersized scoop (except the DB Scout). Half the ships have an oversized scoop. The othe have an equal sized one. If the DB Explorer had an equal sized one, how would that hurt your gameplay experience? Why are half the people here defending keeping a ship weak just to ruin gameplay for the other half? Are you the "Explorer Police"? Do you not have anything better to do than tell people they are playing the game wrong?

should we time our bathroom breaks during fuel scooping so that we're doing it right? Should we stop caring about speed because going slow doesn't bother you? Are you really so self absorbed that you think other people's feelings can be wrong? Or do you just not care about anyone's feelings but your own?

Any argument to weaken the Fuel Scoop on an explorer vessel because of combat or trade (ie rares) is utter , because multi-role ships can already do both. You are defending "selective balancing", by applying limitations to only one ship, which is no kind of balance at all.

 

[Poseidal]

How about they reduce the FSD to a size 4?

PROBLEM SOLVED.

 

[Mephane]

It's a mystery why people are defending an undersized scoop on an explorer ship. No other ship in the game has undersized scoop (except the DB Scout). Half the ships have an oversized scoop. The othe have an equal sized one. If the DB Explorer had an equal sized one, how would that hurt your gameplay experience? Why are half the people here defending keeping a ship weak just to ruin gameplay for the other half? Are you the "Explorer Police"? Do you not have anything better to do than tell people they are playing the game wrong?

should we time our bathroom breaks during fuel scooping so that we're doing it right? Should we stop caring about speed because going slow doesn't bother you? Are you really so self absorbed that you think other people's feelings can be wrong? Or do you just not care about anyone's feelings but your own?

Any argument to weaken the Fuel Scoop on an explorer vessel because of combat or trade (ie rares) is utter , because multi-role ships can already do both. You are defending "selective balancing", by applying limitations to only one ship, which is no kind of balance at all.

Because I don't think a class 4 scoop is undersized for a class 5 FSD. I have been using that very combination (A4 scoop, A5 FSD) on a ship that guzzles fuel much faster, and with a smaller tank (Clipper) and did just fine. Of course a class 5 scoop is better, but in no way is a class 4 scoop "too small".

 

[Libluini]

It's a mystery why people are defending an undersized scoop on an explorer ship. No other ship in the game has undersized scoop (except the DB Scout). Half the ships have an oversized scoop. The othe have an equal sized one. If the DB Explorer had an equal sized one, how would that hurt your gameplay experience? Why are half the people here defending keeping a ship weak just to ruin gameplay for the other half? Are you the "Explorer Police"? Do you not have anything better to do than tell people they are playing the game wrong?

should we time our bathroom breaks during fuel scooping so that we're doing it right? Should we stop caring about speed because going slow doesn't bother you? Are you really so self absorbed that you think other people's feelings can be wrong? Or do you just not care about anyone's feelings but your own?

Any argument to weaken the Fuel Scoop on an explorer vessel because of combat or trade (ie rares) is utter , because multi-role ships can already do both. You are defending "selective balancing", by applying limitations to only one ship, which is no kind of balance at all.

You're going completely overboard with this. With a 4A-fuel scoop, the DBE still fills his tank rather fast. If you downsize the tank for 2 ly extra range, the entire tank fills up in less then a minute from empty. That means you barely have enough time to move your ship around to your next target before your tank fills up.

It's like with those crazies who absolutely need a 6A-fuel scoop on their Asp and won't shut up about it. No, a 5D is already fast enough for maximum efficiency, everything else just wastes money for no real gain. (OK, if you travel around with maximum tank size, you'd probably want a 5A or 6D, but the rest is just showing off how posh you are.)

 

[Synther]

If you want the premium of having the bigger fuel scoop, get the better ship. The DBE is an appetizer if anything.

It's like asking the diamondback scout and the vulture to have the same combat ability.