It's time to revisit the PVP rebuy. Distant Ganks 2 makes the point.

DW2 has reintroduced the argument of PVE Open to the forums in a big way.

FDEV seems unwilling or unable to embrace a PVE Open server.

So the PVE community is stuck with the Private Group solution, with the overflow being grist for the mill in Open.

One of the core features of a collaborative PVE experience is that it shared between players with similar goals and expectations.

PG population caps, related instancing restrictions, and being pk targets all reduce the basic biochemical reward for positive social interaction that is a reasonable expectation of an MMO experience.

PVP players are simply playing within the rules outlined by FDEV when they attack any other player within Open instances.

The PVP players are NOT the reason that PVE players are restricted from a collaborative positve social experience.

The game design has established these conditions.

Currently, the consequences for PVP character death represent an insurance rebuy, loss of all exploration data, loss of cargo, loss of all missions, loss of all bounties, loss of all combat bonds, and a reset of your ship to the last station visited.

It is fair to say that the threat of character death at the hands of NPCs or pilot error is VASTLY LOWER than the threat of character death by an actual PVP player.

The consequences of character death seem appropriately punishing given the minimal threat in solo or PG.

So the calculation a player must make is:

Is my desire for collaborative positive social interaction worth the loss of personal time the threat of PVP death represents?

FDEV has demonstrated a passion for design that prolongs player time on repetitive tasks.

FDEV has embraced the model that players will accept the character death risk because the biochemcial reward is such a positive incentive.

FDEV likes pvp player death because it demands a players invest more time in the game to recover from the setback.


In my opinion, this is a design that significantly impairs socialization.

My plea to FDEV is that they reconsider the heavy handed rebuy and character losses for PVP deaths.

It is probably too late to develop a PVE Open offering, but it is certainly not too late to reduce the costs of PVP death.
 
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I mean, credits are already worthless, so you could keep that part of the rebuy cost.

But it never made a lick of sense (except as arbitrary punishment) that you also lose data, missions, bounty vouchers and bonds not yet cashed etc., whether it was a zit-faced seal clubber bunking off uni, or an NPC.
 
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There's a few good solutions. Like respawning at a base in system.
If none is available, check for stations between your last one, and where you died, and place you in the closest point of death.

I had a good idea for cargo insurance once. Non-exploitable too. So that's something you can claim back, if it were to go ahead.

Reduced rebuy for PvP deaths (providing you was a clean target) could work, and just be handwaviumed away, for the sake of gameplay.

I've also suggested a black box type thing you drop on death, and you have limited (game) time to retrieve it, to recover all lost data.
I wouldn't go as far as to suggest other players can steal it, as that would just encourage killing explorers for their data.


Another idea I was toying with is, and I doubt anyone will like this, which is why I've not posted it, is give ships with hardpoints retracted a shield resistance boost, with a long cooldown of several minutes both ways.
Scanners and defences don't count as deploying hardpoints.
So basically if you don't fight back, your shields are even stronger. But if you have fought recently, they won't be. And they won't be for several minutes after either, so you can't retract weapons to gain an instant buff or anything.
 
Repped!
I fully agree with your post.

I'm playing DW2 in SOLO all the time because of this.

In my opinion a players that get killed by another player without responding to fire should be see a different rebuy scenario:

-rebuy fee applicable to ship only, modules should be restored for free
-no loss of data
-he/she should respawn in the previous visited system

With these 3 conditions I would return to play in OPEN.
 
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The costs for PVP death are essentially a PVE player time tax imposed by FDEV to get access to positive, collaborative social interaction - an activity with an actual chemical physical reward (a primary reason PVE players play MMOs).


FDEV extracts extra time from PVE players to get access to this reward.
 
I find it weird that the conclusion the OP comes to is that PVP death needs to be less punishing, when everything they describe should lead one to conclude that it is PVE deaths that are way too easy to avoid.

It's not that players are inherently more dangerous that is the problem, it's that the rest of the game isn't.
 
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I find it weird that the conclusion the OP comes to is that PVP death needs to be less punishing, when everything they describe should lead one to conclude that it is PVE deaths that are way too easy to avoid.

It's not that players are inherently more dangerous that is the problem, it's that the rest of the game isn't.
What Jukelo said.
 
My plea to PVE players like the Op. Is consider getting good enough at the game, that you finally understand how easy it is not to die to even the most determined of PVP player.

Get that knowledge right and you can be as social is you like and just lol at anyone trying to force you into non-consensual gameplay

Powerpanic
The Voice of Griefing
 
But it never made a lick of sense (except as arbitrary punishment) that you also lose data, missions, bounty vouchers and bonds not yet cashed etc., whether it was a zit-faced seal clubber bunking off uni, or an NPC.
Consider it in terms of the original Elite. In that, you could only save the game when docked at a station. If you went out, picked up some bounties, and then got killed ... then you were actually dead ... and you were reset to back when you last docked and saved, whenever that was. You lost any cargo, bounties, etc. that you'd picked up since you last docked. FE2/FFE allowed saving anywhere but depending on the situation you'd be well advised to keep a save game from your last station to stop you getting into an inescapable situation.

So it's all fairly consistent with that [1]: things that you probably picked up on your recent trip out (vouchers, cargo) are lost when you pay to reload your last save ... things that you probably had when you last docked (credits, materials, rep, ranks, etc.) are kept. With the exception of missions that depend on specific cargo, they're usually not lost with your ship.

It does give inconsistent results from the consistent principles because it's not an exact implementation but an approximation based on the type of item. So, for example, if you go out bounty hunting, kill ten pirates for 1 million credits of vouchers, and then the 11th one gets you ... you lose the bounty vouchers, but you keep the gain in combat rank from the kills.

More consistent would be to actually restore you to exactly what you had when you last launched - but that allows for some silly exploits in multiplayer, e.g. launch Freewinder with Void Opals in cargo, give cargo to alt account, self-destruct, respawn with more Void Opals, repeat - so "by type" is probably as close as we'll get.



From a more general perspective, "push your luck" - do you try to get more, or do you play safe and cash in what you have? - has been a game mechanic in lots of games, going back centuries. If you don't have that, where's the incentive to be careful at all? Any ship can carry enough exploration data to make its rebuy largely irrelevant ... many of the smaller ones don't take long to pick up enough bounty vouchers to make their rebuy insignificant either ... so if it was only rebuy, people could fly out to Beagle Point with DWE, self-destruct, then instantly start selling their data. That's also a bit silly.


[1] The change in 3.0 to allow respawning at the closest station if there was a suitable one is not consistent with this, and is also somewhat exploitable. I don't like that one.
 
I think the rebuy issue has been made irrelevant by the mining update. It is a trivial matter to come up with the rebuy on ANY ship in a hour or less. As far as the loss of data/missions...etc... you lost your ship, sorry, but that makes sense to lose as well. I have some sympathy for the respawn argument, it does seem logical that you should be able to span at the nearest port with a shipyard.
 
Why not wing up and try to actually fight back? You know, strength in numbers?
Probably because they would have to find something else to cry about. It's amazing they can't see how ridiculous it is to somehow make PvP death less damaging. PVE is too easy, so for real combat, we need PVP. With death comes consequences, and that's the way it should be. If dying was no big deal, PvP would be boring AF. I'm a terrible combat pilot, so I've learned to escape. but I love excitement and danger, which is why I play this game and always fly in Open. Meanwhile, care bears want to nerf or delete PvP. It's aggravating. If they can't handle being blown up, play in Solo/Private, that should be the end of the discussion not "Change the game to the way I want to play it." I wish the mods on this forum would put the kibosh on these stupid "nerf/remove PVP" threads.
 
I find it weird that the conclusion the OP comes to is that PVP death needs to be less punishing, when everything they describe should lead one to conclude that it is PVE deaths that are way too easy to avoid.

It's not that players are inherently more dangerous that is the problem, it's that the rest of the game isn't.
Your missing the real point. FDEV is using the human need for positive social interaction to extract more playtime. The PVP players are simply a tool used by FDEV to take away progress and extract more play time. The argument is about FDEVs motivations - not about game difficulty.
 
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Your missing the real point. FDEV is using the human need for positive social interaction to extract more playtime. The PVP players are simply a tool used by FDEV to take away progress and extract more play time. The argument is about FDEVs motivations - not about game difficulty.
Do they have motivations? Really? Seems to me like they throw stuff at the wall to find out what sticks.
 
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