Proposal Discussion Kill Warrant Scanner Feedback

[rootsrat]

Sorry, but i should have explained better. Sure as someone who pushes your chosen faction, then sure bounty hunting in your own system is good. But for people that roam around the bubble only doing bounty hunting, then I see the BGS as secondary to credits.

But if you are pushing your faction, then you don't need a KWS as it is now in live. So I see no issues.

Not too sure what the shocker is. I have been messing around with the BGS since the early days. But really see no issues.

Ah, I see. Yes, I can partially agree, but for smaller factions with just 1 or 2 systems it may be still beneficial to have that.

I think that BGS is the minor issue here. The main one is the reputation anyway.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Hello Commanders!

We’ve been going through the feedback for the Kill Warrant Scanner (as always, thank you for your input!) and wanted to clarify why the module has changed, as well as float an idea for your consideration.

As part of the crime update, we now place bounties on ships, which are cleared one jurisdiction at a time. This means that when criminals are processed, their captors only care about crimes relevant to their jurisdiction. Because other bounties remain, there is more consequence, as Commanders risk losing their ship multiple times if they have multiple bounties.

However, this caused an issue with the Kill Warrant scanner. The new system runs on the principle that only one bounty is cleared at a time at a detention centre, which does not work with the old version of the Kill Warrant Scanner, as it detected all bounties.

Additionally, if detention centres *did* process all bounties the result would potentially be crippling, punishing Commanders too harshly for killing ships, even NPC ships, by forcing them to pay every bounty at once, especially considering that bounties will no longer expire.

So we changed the Kill Warrant Scanner to detect the single largest bounty. This would allow the villain to be destroyed multiple times, and over time would allow all the bounties to be claimed. However, there is no denying that it significantly reduces the earning potential of the module.

We think the updated crime system is better across the board, and ultimately, worth the change to how the KWS works.

That being said, we are considering (and just that, no ETA or guarantee, this is just something we’re mulling over) a change to the KWS.

It’s somewhat significant, so we’d like to get some feedback on the concept before deciding any next step.


Kill Warrant Scanner Serving Suggestion

• Upon a successful scan, the KWS will detect every bounty for factions aligned with the same superpower as the faction controlling the current jurisdiction.
  • E.g. if you’re in a jurisdiction controlled by an Imperial aligned faction, then the KWS will detect every bounty on the scanned ship issued by all Imperial aligned factions.
• What’s more, the KWS scan will *legitimise* attack against the scanned ship for you and any wingmen. This freedom to attack will expire once the target leaves the location, via supercruise, hyperspace jump or the like.
  
  
• The KWS will detect all Interstellar bounties on a target vessel. However, it does not legitimise attack, so you still will have to break the law to collect them if the Interstellar bounty is for a different superpower than the current jurisdiction is alinged to.

This change would bring the Kill Warrant Scanners closer to its original specification, especially regarding earning potential, improve it in some contextually appropriate situations by legitimising attack, limit its power where appropriate by hiding non-local independent bounties and fit neatly within the lore of how the game deals with criminality and factions.

So now, over to you. Do you think this proposal give the KWS enough kick? Does it punish/threaten criminals too much? Is the mechanic clear enough? In short, have a gander and tell us what you think. A final reminder, this is just a suggestion that we're looking at, not a definite plan.

Your feedback is greatly appreciated!

this sounds like a massive nerf to the PvE game to protect the PvP players.
its your game, your call, but for me i think i will be dumping mine now, because as others have said, there is NO persistance of npcs so your argument of killing more than once is moot.

its gamey....... but perhaps the KWS could work differently for pilots federation members than it does for non PF members? (ie players vs npcs)

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Seems like a lot of CMDRs get it.. but a lot of them don't.

PvE bounty hunting doesn't pay extraordinarily well. It's a good living, but no one is getting rich off of it. It is fun though. The complaints about the new KWS mechanic are NOT about credits. People will continue to PvE bounty hunt even if it paid 2cr per ship, they might not be happy about it, but they'd do it.

The problem with the new KWS is losing minor faction rep even though I'm killing criminals for them, because even though those ships are wanted by those minor factions I don't get to turn in the bounties for them, so my rep drops.

I like to maintain at least neutral rep with every faction in the galaxy. I will not be able to bounty hunt in systems for more than an hour or two with the new KWS.

This for me is about to make consequences much more interesting. Have to see how it looks in real life but that would good step forward.

I don't believe players should be able to have all green reps across the board. It is not realistic.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Ah, I see. Yes, I can partially agree, but for smaller factions with just 1 or 2 systems it may be still beneficial to have that.

I think that BGS is the minor issue here. The main one is the reputation anyway.

It's a minor issue I can live with for the better C&P system.

this sounds like a massive nerf to the PvE game to protect the PvP players.
its your game, your call, but for me i think i will be dumping mine now, because as others have said, there is NO persistance of npcs so your argument of killing more than once is moot.

its gamey....... but perhaps the KWS could work differently for pilots federation members than it does for non PF members? (ie players vs npcs)

I disagree. I think it's a big bonus for PvE compared to what it's like in the beta. I certainly will be using one if I go bounty hunting. It also means that criminals will need to be careful in any system if sec or NPC scans you with a KWS.

 

[CMDR _BigJay_]

Sorry, but i should have explained better. Sure as someone who pushes your chosen faction, then sure bounty hunting in your own system is good. But for people that roam around the bubble only doing bounty hunting, then I see the BGS as secondary to credits.

But if you are pushing your faction, then you don't need a KWS as it is now in live. So I see no issues.

Not too sure what the shocker is. I have been messing around with the BGS since the early days. But really see no issues.

I am killing ships that are wanted by every faction in the system. (Not every ship is wanted by every faction, but over a group of ships, all factions are represented). These are ALL criminals who are wanted by the controlling faction.

With the old KWS I turn in all of my bounty vouchers and my reputation is maintained except for any Anarchy factions.

With the new KWS I will lose reputation with most minor factions in the system. Not cause I'm a bad guy, but because the new KWS won't allow me to hand in the bounties on ships that they have issued. They wanted these ships dead, I did the work, but I can't get credit for it.

THAT'S the problem.

 

[CMDR _BigJay_]

This for me is about to make consequences much more interesting. Have to see how it looks in real life but that would good step forward.

I don't believe players should be able to have all green reps across the board. It is not realistic.

I got some bad news for you.. I'm GOING to have all green reps whether you like it or not. The question is, whether or not I will be bounty hunting in this game at all.



I kill a ship wanted by the controlling faction, belonging to another faction. The other faction gives me a negative rep. Later I kill a ship wanted by the controlling faction that is ALSO wanted by the other minor faction. When I turn that bounty in, my rep with the other minor faction goes back up. This makes sense. This is also how it has been since I started the game. To change the KWS so that the second ship is STILL wanted by the other faction, but I am NOT ALLOWED to turn in that bounty, so my rep doesn't go back up with the other faction, makes no sense.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I am killing ships that are wanted by every faction in the system. (Not every ship is wanted by every faction, but over a group of ships, all factions are represented). These are ALL criminals who are wanted by the controlling faction.

With the old KWS I turn in all of my bounty vouchers and my reputation is maintained except for any Anarchy factions.

With the new KWS I will lose reputation with most minor factions in the system. Not cause I'm a bad guy, but because the new KWS won't allow me to hand in the bounties on ships that they have issued. They wanted these ships dead, I did the work, but I can't get credit for it.

THAT'S the problem.

Dont you mean you won't gain rep? Also what happens when you don't use the KWS? The KWS I always thought was for different jurisdictions?

 

[Starlear]

Sandro, I think the worry about it punishing people too harshly for killing ships could be alleviated by having the scanner "legalize" assassination missions.

There SHOULD be a potentially crippling penalty involved for mass murder of players or NPC's, and it's important to note that it would only be an issue if someone (that is, a player) warrant scanned you. If you're going to live dangerously, I personally think that another player being able to bring you to justice (and collect the potentially huge reward for doing so) adds interesting gameplay. As it stands now, with no real way to track wanted people with high bounties, there's no reason to hunt high value targets over a long period when you can just pop into a RES to farm an endless string of bounties for guaranteed cash.

Allowing warrant scanners to enable that "looking for the next big payday" playstyle in terms of hunting down high value targets in a high risk, high reward scenario would personally tick a lot of boxes for me in terms of feeling like famous character's from literature or film. Elite doesn't currently have anything that resembles scraping by looking for the next big score, but this could be a huge addition.

I personally feel that there is not a problem with someone potentially losing everything for being caught and killed by a dedicated bounty Hunter, so long as there are ways to avoid becoming wanted for completing missions or the like. Targets with bounties that high (that is, that rival their total assets in magnitude) SHOULD fear being caught, and I think the danger of losing everything would make it more likely for them to stay in Anarchy or similar systems, where the risk to them is much lower.

 

[CMDR _BigJay_]

Dont you mean you won't gain rep?

Yeah, I didn't mean credit as in credits. I mean credit as in recognition by the minor faction that I killed a criminal that they wanted dead.

 

[Wyaston Hypatia]

@Sandro. I like your proposed changes, they need to be implemented, as the beta changes just don't work for a PvE player. They will bring the KWS back to usefulness for me and I think they could even be better than what we have now.

…
If this is allowed to go through, everyone who bounty hunts in one system for more than a few hours WILL become unfriendly or worse with many of the minor factions in that system. Even though you are killing criminals.

Now this is the point in the discussion that I understand but don't agree that it's a bad thing. I can't see why, from the RP point, if you sit in a RES site for a few hours destroying a factions ships you shouldn't become unfriendly with them. Currently this is mitigated by picking up some secondary bounties, which will not happen in the new systems. So doing something else to mitigate it is required if it's a problem - run a few missions and take the payout in Rep should be all that's required. It does make the game just a little bit more complex, which I like.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

@Sandro. I like your proposed changes, they need to be implemented, as the beta changes just don't work for a PvE player. They will bring the KWS back to usefulness for me and I think they could even be better than what we have now.


Now this is the point in the discussion that I understand but don't agree that it's a bad thing. I can't see why, from the RP point, if you sit in a RES site for a few hours destroying a factions ships you shouldn't become unfriendly to them. Currently this is mitigated by picking up some secondary bounties, which will not happen in the new systems. So doing something else to mitigate it is required if it's a problem - run a few missions and take the payout in Rep should be all that's required. It does make the game just a little bit more complex, which I like.

Agreed. It means you need to think about it more. I much prefer over live.

 

[wstephenson]

Are there any superpower aligned Anarchies? What would be the effect of Kwsing then killing a target there?

 

[raymondo the great]

Now this is the point in the discussion that I understand but don't agree that it's a bad thing. I can't see why, from the RP point, if you sit in a RES site for a few hours destroying a factions ships you shouldn't become unfriendly with them. Currently this is mitigated by picking up some secondary bounties, which will not happen in the new systems. So doing something else to mitigate it is required if it's a problem - run a few missions and take the payout in Rep should be all that's required. It does make the game just a little bit more complex, which I like.

The problem here is you are suggesting "we" (the players) change how we play the game to "fix" somthing the devs broke!

Simple fact is that if 5 factions in a system want x dead it makes sense they all pay you and you get credit in the form of rep from all of them for taking out this galatic filth!

The new system does not make any sort of sense from an "in game perspective" "we are going to pretend that NPCs will only ever violate the laws of at most 2 jurisdictions" errr... nope!

Now onto the "just run a few missions" thing...pray tell how we do that in a locked down system? Or when that faction won't offer us any missions because our rep is crap?

I mean since the last patch I've been to scores of systems where I'm ALLIED and the status is BOOM and the board hasn't presented any missions! Or it's only presented illegal missions etc etc. There are loads of times where you quite simply cannot get missions unless you already have at least basic positive rep from a faction. Now if you bounty hunt you will never have the chance to get them!

So it is daft not only from an "immersion" point of view, but from a "Gameplay" one too...

And lets face it...the devs know it! Because if they didn't they wouldn't have offered this sop to try and divide the resistance to the new system!

 

[sollisb]

Seems like a lot of CMDRs get it.. but a lot of them don't.

PvE bounty hunting doesn't pay extraordinarily well. It's a good living, but no one is getting rich off of it. It is fun though. The complaints about the new KWS mechanic are NOT about credits. People will continue to PvE bounty hunt even if it paid 2cr per ship, they might not be happy about it, but they'd do it.

The problem with the new KWS is losing minor faction rep even though I'm killing criminals for them, because even though those ships are wanted by those minor factions I don't get to turn in the bounties for them, so my rep drops.

I like to maintain at least neutral rep with every faction in the galaxy. I will not be able to bounty hunt in systems for more than an hour or two with the new KWS.

This is untrue and based on no accountable information.

For me, someone with multiple accounts, I play in the Hazrez nightly, and yes, the HazRez is my main source of income. I have no interest in trading, pvp or much else. I get my kicks from relaxing in the HazRez.

Now an example; An Anaconda last night prior to scan was worth 147k, and after scan was worth 250k+. This change would mean I'd lose out on a 100k !!

Being PvE centric, means that the effect of the new C&P system on Me and other PvE centric players will be neglible, while the hit from the nerf will be huge!

This is a nerf anyway you look at it. Worse, it's been conformed by Sandro himself.

 

[Sandro Sammarco]

Hello Commanders!

We've been discussing the Kill Warrant Scanner a lot today.

I'm about to start another trawl through this thread for another round of feedback (wish me luck), so in the meantime, I want to put something else out for you to chew over. It's another serving suggestion. At face value it sounds very much like the initial proposal, but there are significant differences. Have a think about how you currently use the KWS, and how you might need to change your tactics to get the same, or similar results (and of course, look for elements that you think this suggestion does not accommodate).

* The kill Warrant Scanner becomes a "force multiplier" for the superpower that is aligned with the current jurisdiction.

* Independents, for the purposes of the KWS become a superpower (as in they've all signed a treaty for KWS usage).

* A successful KWS scan reveals all bounties for factions aligned with the superpower controlling the current jurisdiction:

** All Federal bounties are detected when in a jurisdiction controlled by a Federal faction.

** All Empire bounties are detected when in a jurisdiction controlled by an Imperial faction.

** All Alliance bounties are detected when in a jurisdiction controlled by an Alliance faction.

** All independent bounties are detected when in a jurisdiction controlled by an independent faction.

* No bounties can be detected in anarchies, making them safe havens for criminals.

* The KWS scan legitimises attack for any bounty detected.

* There are no interstellar bounties - the KWS effectively subsumes this role. However, because all bounties are individual, reputation gain is retained for them.

 

[CMDR _BigJay_]

Agreed. It means you need to think about it more. I much prefer over live.

So....

Faction A - Imperial - 100% of "Wanted" ships have a bounty from this faction.
Faction B - Imperial - 50% of "Wanted" ships have a bounty from this faction.
Faction C - Federation - 30% of "Wanted" ships have a bounty from this faction.
Faction D - Independent - 30% of "Wanted" ships have a bounty from this faction.
Faction E - Independent - 30% of "Wanted" ships have a bounty from this faction.
Faction F - Independent - Anarchy faction, 0% of ships have a bounty from this faction.

Imperial Superpower - 50% of "Wanted" ships have a bounty from this faction.
Federation Superpower - 30% of "Wanted" ships have a bounty from this faction.
Alliance Superpower - 10% of "Wanted" ships have a bounty from this faction.

In the current system, I'm good. I don't think I really need to explain it. As I kill ships my rep goes down. When I turn in bounties my rep goes back up, for all but Faction F.

In the new system, I am killing ships that ARE wanted by faction C, D and E but I NEVER get to turn in any bounties for them because the criminals have racked up higher bounties with faction A or B. So even though I am killing criminals that are wanted by C, D, and E, my rep with them goes down. It makes no sense.

You DO already need to pay attention when you're bounty hunting if you want your reputation to remain good with all minor factions. I have ran missions in the past to keep my rep up. I do not want constant mission running to be a regular part of bounty hunting and I REALLY don't want to have to do a week of mission running to "make up" for all of the hard work I do at bounty hunting CGs.

 

[sollisb]

Hello Commanders!

We've been discussing the Kill Warrant Scanner a lot today.

I'm about to start another trawl through this thread for another round of feedback (wish me luck), so in the meantime, I want to put something else out for you to chew over. It's another serving suggestion. At face value it sounds very much like the initial proposal, but there are significant differences. Have a think about how you currently use the KWS, and how you might need to change your tactics to get the same, or similar results (and of course, look for elements that you think this suggestion does not accommodate).

* The kill Warrant Scanner becomes a "force multiplier" for the superpower that is aligned with the current jurisdiction.

* Independents, for the purposes of the KWS become a superpower (as in they've all signed a treaty for KWS usage).

* A successful KWS scan reveals all bounties for factions aligned with the superpower controlling the current jurisdiction:

** All Federal bounties are detected when in a jurisdiction controlled by a Federal faction.

** All Empire bounties are detected when in a jurisdiction controlled by an Imperial faction.

** All Alliance bounties are detected when in a jurisdiction controlled by an Alliance faction.

** All independent bounties are detected when in a jurisdiction controlled by an independent faction.

* No bounties can be detected in anarchies, making them safe havens for criminals.

* The KWS scan legitimises attack for any bounty detected.

* There are no interstellar bounties - the KWS effectively subsumes this role. However, because all bounties are individual, reputation gain is retained for them.

Sandro, some clarification if possible;

Sample; NPC killed has 100k in Fed, and 47k in emp. If I kill in a fed juristriction I get 100k and lose out on the 47k, likewise if I kill the NPC in Emp I lose the 100k Fed bounty?

This means as per current situation, we're (PvE Centric players) losing out on bounties we get now. ie: in the above example; I get 147k

 

[MakashiGames]

I'm a little confused - your second (What’s more, the KWS scan will *legitimise* attack against the scanned ship for you and any wingmen) and third (However, it does not legitimise attack) points contradict each other.

Is the intention to be that, I normal scan a ship and it is not wanted in this jurisdiction - I KWS them and find out they are wanted by another faction aligned to the same super power - thus they are wanted for me, and I can attack them and claim that other bounty?

 

[YinYin]

I'm about to start another trawl through this thread for another round of feedback (wish me luck), so in the meantime, I want to put something else out for you to chew over. It's another serving suggestion. At face value it sounds very much like the initial proposal, but there are significant differences.

To summarise, it's the same as the other - except independents are treated as one and interstellar bounties no longer exist?

I suppose that makes things fairer for independent regions such as colonia. So I like that despite the first proposal making a bit more sense.

I also like bounties not being detectable in anarchy systems as I've always considered the KWS ping to be kind of a data base check with the local nav beacon.
A compromised/non existent nav beacon won't respond to that.

 

[CMDR _BigJay_]

Hello Commanders!

We've been discussing the Kill Warrant Scanner a lot today.

I'm about to start another trawl through this thread for another round of feedback (wish me luck), so in the meantime, I want to put something else out for you to chew over. It's another serving suggestion. At face value it sounds very much like the initial proposal, but there are significant differences. Have a think about how you currently use the KWS, and how you might need to change your tactics to get the same, or similar results (and of course, look for elements that you think this suggestion does not accommodate).

* The kill Warrant Scanner becomes a "force multiplier" for the superpower that is aligned with the current jurisdiction.

* Independents, for the purposes of the KWS become a superpower (as in they've all signed a treaty for KWS usage).

* A successful KWS scan reveals all bounties for factions aligned with the superpower controlling the current jurisdiction:

** All Federal bounties are detected when in a jurisdiction controlled by a Federal faction.

** All Empire bounties are detected when in a jurisdiction controlled by an Imperial faction.

** All Alliance bounties are detected when in a jurisdiction controlled by an Alliance faction.

** All independent bounties are detected when in a jurisdiction controlled by an independent faction.

* No bounties can be detected in anarchies, making them safe havens for criminals.

* The KWS scan legitimises attack for any bounty detected.

* There are no interstellar bounties - the KWS effectively subsumes this role. However, because all bounties are individual, reputation gain is retained for them.

Personally Sandro, I'm not going to go below neutral with any faction in the galaxy. It's not how I see myself. Your changes here will allow me to kill some more ships than the original post in this thread, but it still doesn't allow me to kill as many ships as I would be able to with the 2.4 version of the KWS. And I'm having a hard time understanding (in an immersive/RP way) why that is. From a gameplay mechanic I understand why you're doing it. I just think it's not the right solution.

When I started playing the game, I would bounty hunt (without a KWS) until I got a message saying I was unfriendly. Then I would go run some missions to get that back to neutral, then I'd leave the system and never bounty hunt there again.

Once I learned how a KWS worked (thanks CMDR Sh0nuff, Slink's Eye CG fall 2016) I started to use a KWS to keep my rep up and I ONLY bounty hunted in systems with no Anarchy faction.

Occasionally I do bounty hunt at CGs with an Anarchy faction, but once my rep with them gets to the lower part of neutral I'll do some missions or avoid killing their ships.

My playing is going to continue along these lines. Whatever the solution is, I'll figure out how to do it without my rep dropping. If that means I can't bounty hunt at all, then I guess that's how it will be.