Lack of 3D depth, just me or...?

[PetroVitallini]

Hello,

My background for writing this post is that I recently read a few threads on the oculus forums which addressed concerns regarding IPD, scale and also 3D depth. I've been away from elite dangerous for quite some time. After reading these threads I started to think about it and I can't shake the feeling that something is off. I used to have a great time just flying around asteroid fields with a strong feeling of being there. The spacious feel of the inside of a station when entering from the letterbox or hangar was another wow inducing experience and also when doing a system jump I felt like I was traveling through witch space. Now it feels flat. My experience echo the ones in these threads, there is a close 3D effect in the cockpit, but the outside feels flat.

Links to threads:

https://forums.oculus.com/community...ost-the-depth-and-immersion-after-runtime-1-3

and

https://forums.oculus.com/community...urate-depth-perception-and-world-scale#latest

I bought a dk2 a few years ago (which I sold after receiving my cv1) and was present at these forums in the "gold rush" of tweaks and tips for improving image quality and fps for ED and the dk2 generally. Also I believe there are more of you "tweakers" here that has made the transition from the dk2 to the cv1 and perhaps more importantly the transition pre/post runtime/sdk 1.3. This is one of the reasons for posting this here first and not on the oculus forums. I would like to hear if some of you share my experience and if it is possible for someone with a dk2 to verify or refute the claims in the first link running a pre 1.3 runtime?

From the posts I've linked and others I've read it also seems to me that because of the subjective nature of how each individual experience things like presence, scale or depth/3D-effect it is difficult to get on the same page. Some people say they don't notice scale difference when adjusting IPD for example. I can't say that I my self notice any difference in scale when using the IPD adjuster. It's hard to tell as I can't tell if it is just me or because of the IPD bug (IPD stuck at 64 regardless) that was or wasn't fixed in oculus 1.7.

I have had a little experience with nvidia 3dvision and I know the moment when you get the convergence right, the 3D truly is noticeable and deep. Does anyone know of a game, demo or experience where you are able to adjust convergence for the cv1?

Anyways, a bit of a ramble, but would love to get some input on this!

 

[Soda Popinski]

Past 20 or 30 feet, the parallax you get from binocular vision is too subtle to get any depth perception. In other words, things should be flat a little past your cockpit. At that point, in the real world, we tend to use scale, and atmospheric blurring (like alpha blending) to judge distance.

 

[Khaldur]

^^^ What he said. Absolutely correct.

I think the problem with the interior of the space stations is that it always appears very misty and low contrast compared to e.g. 1 year ago. That makes it look really flat.

 

[PetroVitallini]

Thanks for your input guys. I wonder if when we had extended mode and could use sweetfx with lumasharpen it somehow enhanced contrasts and therefor made the 3D more noticeable?

I have no clue, perhaps I just lost the ability to feel "there". When I load up ED and at the menu with the eagle and srv the srv does not feel 3D front to back. And the hangar does not feel spacious. I remember when entering a station interior I used to think wow! This is great! Perhaps lack of 3d is a wrong description and perceived lack of space is more correct.

That said, for me it is not isolated to ED. In the oculus dreamdeck I feel no vertigo and it doesn't feel like the ledge I'm standing on is high up in that metropolis demo.

It would be great if oculus had released tools that let you adjust about any setting though. The fact that the IPD-bug (your set IPD value on the rift not being reported to the software) persisting all the way to 1.7 without oculus being aware or giving it any attention until recently suggest to me there might be other issues that gets lost in translation.

 

[Cliché]

I think things can sometimes look a little flat outside the cockpit when I'm just sitting there - like inside a hangar. But once I return to surface and start moving, then the 3D really pops. Same goes for the SRV while looking at the tires going up & down over the terrain. One place I can still experience vertigo, and also really looks 3D, is walking around the ship on a landing pad using the debug camera. That really gives me a feeling of depth (stand back near the hand railings for scale), and the camera will change direction to the side w/o notice when you walk too close, or you can start expectantly climbing, which can both make me feel a little queasy.

 

[Magic Man]

Planet surfaces and stations have depth because they are 3d rendered. Space lacks depth because it is a pre-rendered sky-dome, all the stars are on the same plane - would be great to have parallax changes with distant stars rendered on different planes.

 

[sutex]

Planet surfaces and stations have depth because they are 3d rendered. Space lacks depth because it is a pre-rendered sky-dome, all the stars are on the same plane - would be great to have parallax changes with distant stars rendered on different planes.

Is that possible ? in a P2P no central server setup , ? , wouldn't that defeat Frontiers save cost approach ?

I wonder if this is the case , if not am I completely wrong then WHY isn't 'parallax changes with distant stars rendered on different planes done' ?

????

 

[BigDuke6ixx]

Planet surfaces and stations have depth because they are 3d rendered. Space lacks depth because it is a pre-rendered sky-dome, all the stars are on the same plane - would be great to have parallax changes with distant stars rendered on different planes.

And you'd measure/observe this parallax how exactly?

 

[vic]

For me space now looks boring and no longer play ED because of it. All immersion for me is gone. Before with sweetfx lumasharpen space was beuatiful, now without it it sucks.
And this is with the DK2 cuz I still dont have a CV1(waiting for CV2/ more FOV).
Frontier really needs to add contrast adjustment. How hard can it be.
I still frequent this forum just waiting for some news lumasharpen/sweetfx or frontier implement some contrast....hoping

 

[Magic Man]

And you'd measure/observe this parallax how exactly?

With your eyes... You can see the 'sky'dome is a static, flat image with no depth to it because the stars are not rendered and therefore no parallax change.

Go into the galaxy map in VR and there the stars are individually rendered and your have very noticeable depth. Granted, the scales are totally different between the galaxy map view and 'normal' view but you should observe some depth, certainly at SC speeds.

 

[jojon]

It's hard for me to say... In the main menu scene, the hangar does feel very spacious, yet both the Eagle to the right, and the strut/shock-absorber on the left, feel like they are right up in my face. Doesn't help that the floor does not have any detail texture, so that it might hold up to anywhere near close inspection.

Similar thing seated in my trusty Type6; Body and instrumentation looks the right size, but if I turn around and peer toward the large monitors moulded into the bulkhead behind my seat, they too do not feel distant enough - or distant at all... a kind of 2D-ish undefined depth...

This is with a Rift CV1. My Vive is away for repair, so I couldn't say how that fares today, but I expect the player avatar still looks child-sized... :7

 

[BigDuke6ixx]

With your eyes... You can see the 'sky'dome is a static, flat image with no depth to it because the stars are not rendered and therefore no parallax change.

Go into the galaxy map in VR and there the stars are individually rendered and your have very noticeable depth. Granted, the scales are totally different between the galaxy map view and 'normal' view but you should observe some depth, certainly at SC speeds.

You do know just how far apart stars are and how far you have to travel to see any parallax? You would not see any while supercruising around a system, for example. Your proposal is a non starter based on the laws of physics.

 

[Khaldur]

With your eyes... You can see the 'sky'dome is a static, flat image with no depth to it because the stars are not rendered and therefore no parallax change.

Go into the galaxy map in VR and there the stars are individually rendered and your have very noticeable depth. Granted, the scales are totally different between the galaxy map view and 'normal' view but you should observe some depth, certainly at SC speeds.

The only stellar bodies that should give you an observable parallax while supercruising are the planets and stars of the system you're in - and they do. Even if you supercruise for hours the distance you're moving is negligible compared to the distance of the other stars so you shouldn't see any parallax of stars that are not in your system.
The depiction of stars on a static skydome is visually correct. Also IRL you wouldn't be able to tell if the stars are objects in a 3D space or simply bright dots on a static skydome by just looking at them with your eyes.

The issue is just that in the low resolutions of today's VR the stars appear too big - and again with low constrast.

 

[xondk]

Planet surfaces and stations have depth because they are 3d rendered. Space lacks depth because it is a pre-rendered sky-dome, all the stars are on the same plane - would be great to have parallax changes with distant stars rendered on different planes.

This is not entirely correct, as mentioned by Soda Popinski, beyond a certain distance, especially with nothing to judge scale by, we really don't have much depth perception, ED's "sky dome/box" isn't really a normal one, because that implies an 'end' which there really isn't (except position bit limit I guess) but even then, it is simply projected at a real near infinite distance from user.

So in sense of Depth perception Elite is doing it right, everything is 3d rendered.

Hello,

So yeah in short, ED is doing it correct, in terms of depth perception, if you went into space you would experience the same exact thing.
You can try it out with Space Engine which supports VR as well, and you will get the same 'lack' of depth, because we human's simply aren't able to judge depth in something without guides, be that ground or other stuff we use to judge.

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The issue is just that in the low resolutions of today's VR the stars appear too big - and again with low constrast.

That is not how resolution works, 'low' resolution just makes something appear pixelated, it does not have anything to do with the realistic size or such on screen, so yeah, higher resolution will make mesh go away and image become sharper, but the scale is an FOV thing which, again does not relate to resolution in VR.

 

[sutex]

You do know just how far apart stars are and how far you have to travel to see any parallax? You would not see any while supercruising around a system, for example. Your proposal is a non starter based on the laws of physics.

Not entirely true , if looked though a 'BIG' Telescope one that has to be built where it stands , At say Star Clusters and Nebulae light years away, you can perceive depth.

do yourselves a favour in life ..just once , go look at Saturn , with a good size backyard telescope

 

[NorMonsta]

open your other eye

 

[BigDuke6ixx]

The issue is just that in the low resolutions of today's VR the stars appear too big - and again with low constrast.

Nothing to do with today's VR and all to do with the way FD have decised to represent space. Go and look at BigScreens nebula to see how it should have been done, imo.

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Not entirely true , if looked though a 'BIG' Telescope one that has to be built where it stands , At say Star Clusters and Nebulae light years away, you can perceive depth.

There is no obvervable parralax there, which is the point being made.

do yourselves a favour in life ..just once , go look at Saturn , with a good size backyard telescope

Already don't that many times with my Meade 10" SCT. What you see, with your one eye, is a 2D image which your brain will add depth to. Same with craters on the moon around the terminator. Again, this has nothing to do with parallax.

 

[PetroVitallini]

Hello, just been reading up on this thread (been away for a few days). i have gotten a lot of good explanations that makes sense, but can't shake the feeling that something feels off. Let me try another set of questions then (thank you for anyone still being willing to be bothered). To all of you using a cv1, in the ledge/metropolis do you experience vertigo and or a sense of height? And finally have any of you experienced a loss of immersion in situations where you experienced it earlier?

 

[[HJ]-RedRaven]

Hello, just been reading up on this thread (been away for a few days). i have gotten a lot of good explanations that makes sense, but can't shake the feeling that something feels off. Let me try another set of questions then (thank you for anyone still being willing to be bothered). To all of you using a cv1, in the ledge/metropolis do you experience vertigo and or a sense of height? And finally have any of you experienced a loss of immersion in situations where you experienced it earlier?

Have you grown? or shrunk? I'm kidding of course. But have your expectations changed? Sometimes coming back to a thing after a while, you remember the experience differently and thus can be a bit disappointed compared to the earlier (rose coloured) experience.

I feel my overall scale is off, my cockpit body feels quite small, like I was 12-13 years old again. Not as tall as I am now (just under 6 feet) and slimmer (defintely not like er... now. lol.

But the cockpits, bridges of the ships, objects in game seem to be the right 'size'. The stars are rendered flat, but that can't be helped - they seem to be rendered maybe 50 feet outside the cockpit to me.
Asteroids look great!

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I just tried the Rift CV1 yesterday, but have no issues with the skybox, apart from the stars looking too big.