Lead Designers advice on dealing with griefing (part 2)

[CMDR ColD_ZA]

The bias that is showing is not mine. If this were a duplicate thread pushing a pro PvP agenda the mods would shut it down lightening quick.

The forums are rather one sided

 

[MarkAusten]

The forums are rather one sided

Depending on the view of the reader of course.

 

[racer1]

I wouldn't be too hasty with the block list.

Avoiding becoming a victim by playing the game rather than using the block list can be a lot of fun and satisfying too.

Sure it can be frustrating if it doesn't go your way but being patient and watching what is going on and finding a way around it is exciting for me. I'm even friends with some known unscrupulous cmdrs so I am more likely to encounter these situations lol.

Oh dear now I seem to be getting random friend requests lol...

 

[MarkAusten]

Oh dear now I seem to be getting random friend requests lol...

I will be like LinkedIn soon. I wonder if they have a block list?

 

[Stigbob]

Jaw-droppingly hilarious quote there from Dave. He manages to insult a sector of his playerbase (PEGI 7 this, remember) in demonstrating his assumption that only 'teenagers' will be indulging in the behaviour he's talking about, I mean what, is he OK with being griefed by adults, whilst also saying that he wants a 'feeling of risk out there' - presumablyh this 'feeling of risk' is referring to a roleplay risk that he can imagine is present rather than an actual risk such as the risk of being attacked by another player?

It could be a well informed opinion based on the metrics of other online games, it could be a completely harmless off the cuff comment that people are getting upset about, or it could be a phrase carefully designed to appeal to older gamers who played the original.

Personally I don't care, as I agree with what he said at face value. I'd rather not play a game with griefers, I don't care how old they are.

What makes you think that not wanting to play a game with griefers equates to not wanting risk ?, if there are no risks other than griefers in ED the problem is a lot worse than I thought and I may need a block list extension.

As for the premise of your thread here stigbob, if it was solely pitched at what you refer to as 'station griefers' by which I assume you mean the players ramming other players who are speeding and can't be bothered using the mechanics provided by the game world to avoid harm, or missiling playes as they leave the station, or laying mines inside it, all of which are actions that the game allows, or provides in-game sanctions for, I'd still think it was on dodgy ground to be honest, but I can at least see how you've constructed your mental case for it based on the fact that a lot of players moan about those things.

I've explained on a few occasions why I'm personally no longer willing to play the game with station griefers so I'll skip the why.

But I'll explain the effect, since the release of ED we've had a missile nerf, the speed limit, station ramming fines, fixes to point defenses, fixes to station geometry and now a karma system in the planning stage (and no doubt other things I've missed). All of which were introduced to counter player behavior including station griefing.

We don't know how many hours went and are still going into those things, but we do know it's time that wasn't spent on exploration mechanics or ridding the game of beige (even though I like beige).

Station greifers don't just waste my time when I have to look up through my canopy before launching, they waste FDEV's time.

Simply encouraging players to block other players who may want to oppose their actions at a CG though is genuinely disgraceful in my opinion because it has nothing whatsoever to do with griefing. You can quote Sandro all you like mate because his comments are about griefing and you are not describing griefing according to the terms of reference that anybody I know who has played games with any sort of frequency this millennium would recognise. You are literally describing gameplay and nothing more.

I haven't encouraged anyone to block players who oppose a community goal, and the players I've got blocked seem to be opposing every community goal, they also seem to oppose people landing at engineers and busy stations. Could you enlighten me as to which faction this would be ?, Thargoids maybe.

If it's valid gameplay, why are FDEV trying to patch it out with C&P and karma (and the rest) ?. FDEV haven't fixed it yet doesn't mean it's all fine, it just means it's currently possible exactly like the engineers exploit was.

If you disagree with that, I'd like you to explain to me where Dave's 'feling of risk' is supposed to enter the equation in flying cargo from station A to station B with no risk whatsoever of bneing attacked by a player because you've blocked them on the misunderstanding that to attack you is griefing.

I only block station griefers, and I don't carry cargo (except mission critical stuff). So it doesn't apply to me, but I'll field it for you anyway as you are not the first person to say (wrongly) that I'm trying to negate risk.

I'm in the Abroin system I've just had a look at the traffic report and calculated the percentage based on my block list and I have 0.03 % of the players who visited that system in the last 24 hours blocked. So as for your claim that I'm operating (or trying to operate) without risk I've actually reduced the risk by a minuscule statistically insignificant amount, and even then only if the station griefers are all present and suddenly decide to do some PVP.

I'll include my usual disclaimer here. You will not find anybody who is more vehemently opposed to genuine griefing in games than me, it is a plague on online gaming and nobody should be expected to tolerate it. Players choosing to attack other players in a game which allows that is not griefing. What particularly iritates me about this is that every time someone falsely throws that term around, it actually detracts from the seriousness of genuine griefing, for example people being given serious racial abuse, sexual slurs, real-life death threats or threats of violence in-game and individual players being specifically targeted for continual harrassment with the aim of forcing them to stop playing the game altogether.

Griefing is individual everyone has their own opinion and version, which is why I encourage people to make up their own minds. I'd say any type of anti-social stuff that annoys people or is intended to annoy people is griefing, and that griefing is a really minor issue. An issue so minor we should just use the block function and then never give that player a second thought.

Personally I don't think harassment is actually possible in a game just by playing it in any way legit or not, it's certainly possible to harass someone via comms (in game or out) but not via an internet space-ship pew-pew or behavior.

Edit: I just realized the reddit KOS lists for cloggers fit your definition of griefing perfectly.

None of that meets your criteria for you reporting this post by the way because I haven't said a single word about modes. As far as I'm aware, none of it is in breach of any forum rules either.

No you haven't let me clarify something for you here I like freedom of speech, I really like it. I don't want to report anyone, I don't like reporting people and I very rarely do it.

But I promised the mods I'd report any more off-topic excursions in the direction of Hotel California or Insultville.

Have to be honest, I'm also fairly astonished that the mod team are encouraging and supporting a thread which seems to be based in one player's understanding of a gaming term which seems to be vastly at odds with the commonly accepted one, especially in view of the reported consequences of excessive use of the block and the difficulty it can cause with instancing for other players who would not have any problem at all with the activities of players that another player may block.

I think the commonly accepted view is wrong, that's the main reason I started this thread.

I genuinely can't think of another game I've played where this kind of thing would happen, I just find it all so very odd.

I can't think of another game where the ban hammer wouldn't have been playing whack-a-cheat since early 2015. I think it's down to FDEV being a nice bunch of people (and possibly lack of experience with online games)

 

[CMDR ColD_ZA]

Depending on the view of the reader of course.

What I'm referring to is some members get away with murder,

they will run out of intelligent things to say then insult you relentlessly, calling you a kid, telling you to get a life, god will judge you, go to hell etc... you reply to them with "stop being [REDACTED]" and you get an advisory strike on your account

basically freedom of speech, so long as you agree with what ever side of the fence the mods reading that thread are on.

 

[MarkAusten]

What I'm referring to is some members get away with murder,

they will run out of intelligent things to say then insult you relentlessly, calling you a kid, telling you to get a life, god will judge you, go to hell etc... you reply to them with "stop being [REDACTED]" and you get an advisory strike on your account

basically freedom of speech, so long as you agree with what ever side of the fence the mods reading that thread are on.

Using phrases like "you're a kid", "get a life" and so on are technically not infringing the forum rules, or not as I understand them. Yes, the intention might be to be insulting, but the words are not. However, calling someone a [REDACTED] most certainly is contrary to the rules (I think).

So, I have to disagree with your example, my own feeling is that in the cases you state the mods would be correct.

However, as the mods will point out, the correct way to deal with this is to message Brett C and discussing this particular topic, as we and JasonBarron have been doing is also against the forum rules so I'll stop right now.

(Sorry mods, I didn't mean it, honest)

 

[jasonbarron]

If this thread has already made you feel very cross indeed scroll to the bottom and read the disclaimer.


I've found the advice of Sandro Sammarco ED's lead designer on the griefing issue from way back in 2014. The block function (which has recently been improved) was developed specifically to deal with issues such as griefers. There are a lot of misconceptions about the block function such as why it exists, when it should be used and how it works. Hopefully this thread and especially Sandro's comments can help clarify some of that.



Sandro Sammarco on using the block function to counter griefers in 2014:

"Hello Commanders!
In this instance, blocking the Commander might prove quite useful.
When you block somebody, a couple of things should happen.
Firstly, you will receive no communications from them.
Secondly, during any transition where matchmaking is at work (so basically, hyperspace jumps, entering and exiting super cruise) you are much less likely to be matched with the blocked Commander.
Blocking becomes weaker when it comes up against friends (and next year, player wings), because if a blocked Commander is in the same session as a friend (say, because they haven't blocked the Commander, the blocking effect is overruled by the friendship matchmaking.
Outside of this case though, blocking should work fine"

Link as it's too old to be quoted : https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...CK#post1219313



I've recently done some in-game experimentation with the block function at CG's and it is functioning exactly as always intended. I added some of the station rammers to my block list (using the method below) and have since spent some time hanging around the stations/systems of the CG's logging in and out whilst trying to get instanced with the blocked. It was completely effective I never saw them, other than a single time I was instanced with an already blocked CMDR in a station.

Originally I was actively trying to block all station rammers and known cheats, however the more I've looked into this the more it's become apparent that they are largely the same players. So I think there is no real need to make a distinction between the two. The station rammers however are extremely easy to find if you are looking to proactively block.



Here's a quick how to :

You can bock anyone in your comms panel in either the contacts tab for current CMDR's, or the history tab for a list of players you've been instanced with in reverse chronological order. You can also block people in your friends list.

To block someone simply select that CMDR, and select block player from the drop down menu.




Here's a longer how to on specifically tagging station griefers :

Visit any community goal, enter the station return to surface. Alt-tab and get on with something else when you hear explosions alt-tab back and have a look (this is why you are at the surface). If you see people ramming, dropping mines, doing the torpedo thing, target one add him to your block list, alt-tab check you-tube for the same CMDR griefing and grab the names of anyone flying with him, pencil them into your to be blocked list. Go AFK for an extended period when you come back check your contacts list and block any of the names on your list it has grabbed.

You can hurry this process up by assuming anyone whose avatar has clown face paint, neon hair and a purple exhaust is a griefer (check you-tube first to confirm).

Salt gathering video's uploaded by griefers are the second best source of griefer/griefer wingmate names, after seeing them yourself.

Congratulations you've just fixed Elite Dangerous.




If you feel you were griefed/harassed report the player(s) in question

(all credit to Rootsrat for this section)

Do this via in game report player tool. Harassing other players is not allowed in Elite and - while some may not agree that for example dropping bombs on a parked ship is harassment - if you feel you have been griefed (as opposed to ganked/attacked/killed in PVP, see below in spoiler tag), report it and let FDEV be the judge of that. They are Game Masters here and they have a final word in this.

Spoiler

Now, before the PVP players jump and crucify me - there is a very fine line between ganking and griefing. Someone interdicting, attacking and killing me my exploration equipped Conda is complete different to someone ramming a Cutter in their Sidewinder in order for the station to destroy the Cutter. It all depends on the context. Ganking is killing someone, griefing is harassing someone. There is a difference between the two, although sometimes it's not a big one. Griefing is not PVP. Coming onto someone's ship in Multi Crew and firing all their Cell Banks, so that they boil is griefing, not ganking. Destroying Sidewinders in Erevate or near Trevithick Dock is griefing, not PVP. Dropping bombs on a parked ship is on the border. (My opnion. Yours may differ, so may FDEV's. The latter is the final one though).

There are many different scenarios and like I said the line is very fine - but if you feel you were harassed in game, please report the griefer via the in game tools. The more reports FDEV gets about a player, the more evidence they will have. They may take no action or they may take some action. Let them be the judge.

David Braben quote on griefing

In the words of David Braben "What would I want from a game ?, I want to be able to play a great game without being griefed by teenagers. But having said that I do want a feeling of risk out there"

About 7 minutes in.

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9ENkIB0cic

Disclaimer :

The first version of this thread got shut down following the arrival of a rowdy coach party who got lost on the way to Hotel California (that's the OPENvSOLOvGROUP threadnaught for anyone who never reads it). If you want to call me or anyone else names for posting in this thread or go off topic and tell everyone which mode they have to play in from now on or else, do it in that thread.

If you do it here I'm unfortunately obligated to report you.

If you are still angry and need to vent your spleen here is Hotel California : https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...en-v-Solo-v-Groups-thread-IV-Hotel-California

First version of this thread : https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/366473-Lead-Designers-advice-on-dealing-with-griefing

How does this information merit a new thread, Bob? You pretty much covered it ad nauseum in the first go around.

My thoughts are that if Fdev is so desperate to get this message out they should have Brett C make some kind of official announcement and then sticky it. Something along the lines of "Hey bois, we totally don't have any clue how to run an online environment, so instead we have this awesomely broken tool for you all to (ab)use that will slowly pave the way to stealthily dismantling Open as it was originally intended. Again, because we simply don't know what else to do, and gosh golly gee you darn PvErs just won't stop your complaining about your unshielded Anaconda's getting blown up when you drop into to Sothis to spam exploitative biowaste hauling missions, we're starting right here."

 

[CMDR ColD_ZA]

How does this information merit a new thread, Bob? You pretty much covered it ad nauseum in the first go around.

My thoughts are that if Fdev is so desperate to get this message out they should have Brett C make some kind of official announcement and then sticky it. Something along the lines of "Hey bois, we totally don't have any clue how to run an online environment, so instead we have this awesomely broken tool for you all to (ab)use that will slowly pave the way to stealthily dismantling Open as it was originally intended. Again, because we simply don't know what else to do, and gosh golly gee you darn PvErs just won't stop your complaining about your unshielded Anaconda's getting blown up when you drop into to Sothis to spam exploitative biowaste hauling missions, we're starting right here."

Agreed, I don't have issues with station rammers because when I click the top option to go in game I know what to expect,

• At a busy station.... Don't speed, my home base is shinrarta, and I creep out of Jameson Memorial each time I undock
• Knowing that players are potentially dangerous and well armed.... make sure your defenses are up to snuff
• If I go to a planetary hotspot like a popular barnacle, I dismiss my ship when I hop into the SRV
• If you're interdicted, how how to select a system from the nav panel and high wake, Rinzler even made a video guide.

Too many of these brigades are due to people wanting to fly paper thin exploration vessels in known hotspots, IRL if you're going to a sketchy neighborhood... roll up your windows and don't leave your laptop lying on the back seat. Don't complain that your stuff was stolen just because you were negligent.

I've not once had an issue with "Griefers", the closest came when I was accused of combat logging when I had an instancing desync with a known hostile CMDR, all I did was upload my perspective to youtube showing the desync, should my name show up on the the CL subreddit

If a Commander is being abusive in chat, then yes block them by all means... but don't block people just because you are too lazy to obey the speed limit or otherwise

 

[Stigbob]

How does this information merit a new thread, Bob? You pretty much covered it ad nauseum in the first go around.

My thoughts are that if Fdev is so desperate to get this message out they should have Brett C make some kind of official announcement and then sticky it. Something along the lines of "Hey bois, we totally don't have any clue how to run an online environment, so instead we have this awesomely broken tool for you all to (ab)use that will slowly pave the way to stealthily dismantling Open as it was originally intended. Again, because we simply don't know what else to do, and gosh golly gee you darn PvErs just won't stop your complaining about your unshielded Anaconda's getting blown up when you drop into to Sothis to spam exploitative biowaste hauling missions, we're starting right here."

It's just Venus being reflected through some swamp gas Jason. I give you my word as a space-lizard manufactured AI working for the Illuminati.

Seriously though I like PVP and open, I've run the numbers for my reply to Red Anders and I've got about 0.0006% of the playerbase blocked. I don't think I'm an imminent threat to all things open related. I just don't think people should be expected to play with people who are no fun or cheats or get told that they should, and I think the (claimed) consensus of opinion is wrong about the block function.

It's just a game, it doesn't matter if a few of the players use block.

 

[Stigbob]

Agreed, I don't have issues with station rammers because when I click the top option to go in game I know what to expect,

• At a busy station.... Don't speed, my home base is shinrarta, and I creep out of Jameson Memorial each time I undock
• Knowing that players are potentially dangerous and well armed.... make sure your defenses are up to snuff
• If I go to a planetary hotspot like a popular barnacle, I dismiss my ship when I hop into the SRV
• If you're interdicted, how how to select a system from the nav panel and high wake, Rinzler even made a video guide.

Too many of these brigades are due to people wanting to fly paper thin exploration vessels in known hotspots, IRL if you're going to a sketchy neighborhood... roll up your windows and don't leave your laptop lying on the back seat. Don't complain that your stuff was stolen just because you were negligent.

I've not once had an issue with "Griefers", the closest came when I was accused of combat logging when I had an instancing desync with a known hostile CMDR, all I did was upload my perspective to youtube showing the desync, should my name show up on the the CL subreddit

I've never lost to ship them or even taken hull damage, but after nearly three years I simply can't be bothered with checking for them anymore. They are a boring chore not fun game content.

Thankfully I no longer have to bother.

 

[CMDR ColD_ZA]

I've never lost to ship them or even taken hull damage, but after nearly three years I simply can't be bothered with checking for them anymore. They are a boring chore not fun game content.

Thankfully I no longer have to bother.

many game mechanics are a bore and not fun,

• searching for USS's hours on end to find the right mats,
• roaming a planet surface to get mats,
• supercruising for 30 mins because your delivery station is 500k ls away,
• suffering thousands of loading screens just to get to colonia

to name a few,

but you don't see other players installing code injectors and trainers to circumvent those mechanics,

you need to compare apples with apples here, you talk about cheating... what I mentioned is cheating to circumvent boring game mechanics... but what you are suggesting is also cheating to avoid what you deem boring game mechanics

 

[Soliluna]

I've never lost to ship them or even taken hull damage, but after nearly three years I simply can't be bothered with checking for them anymore. They are a boring chore not fun game content.

Thankfully I no longer have to bother.

Good, I don't see anything wrong with this. Elite Dangerous really isn't a game where excluding someone from your experience really matters. It's not a competition, it's not fair, it never was and never will be. If someone is a persistent jerk they could end up with very few people to play with, much like in a "real life" Elite, where they would be locked up or shunned to the fringes of inhabited space. Where nobody would want to deal with them or bother with them.

 

[Stigbob]

many game mechanics are a bore and not fun,

• searching for USS's hours on end to find the right mats,
• roaming a planet surface to get mats,
• supercruising for 30 mins because your delivery station is 500k ls away,
• suffering thousands of loading screens just to get to colonia

to name a few,

but you don't see other players installing code injectors and trainers to circumvent those mechanics,

you need to compare apples with apples here, you talk about cheating... what I mentioned is cheating to circumvent boring game mechanics... but what you are suggesting is also cheating to avoid what you deem boring game mechanics

If you inflict boring things on yourself that really is your problem, I've been playing since gamma and I have only the one Elite rating because I only do what I enjoy (and I've only had that a couple of months). My approach to engineering is gather mats as when and if they turn up with an occasional excursion in an SRV just for fun or reload bit's, and check mission boards for rare things I need if I feel like it. If I need something specific I'll look up where you find it go there and have a laugh and make money in distress signals or whatever until I get the USS spawn I'm after, never needed to do that for more than an hour and always turned a profit.

All my ships are fully engineered, I take the best of three rolls (I'll bend that rule if I'm unlucky) and never grind at it. You might have a few percentage points advantage on weapon recharge, optimal mass or whatever, but it sounds like you are burning yourself out getting it. Don't bother, my stuffs just as good and less hassle.

The engineering exploit was cheating, using the block function in exactly the way it was always intended is not just legit it's advisable, effective and has a marked effect on improving the game.

There should be a compulsory block function tutorial mission.

 

[Archduke]

Originally I was actively trying to block all station rammers and known cheats, however the more I've looked into this the more it's become apparent that they are largely the same players

So a dev lead for Frontier was aware of KNOWN CHEATS and testing the blocking functionality on those players ... the alarming question here is why are KNOWN CHEATS (and KNOWN to management in development process) active in the game at all ???

 

[EvE4evah]

Astonishes me that the mods gave their OK to a thread that is basically a copy of an old one, which got what? "Hijacked"? What does that even mean? Oh, it's when people who disagree with your PoV become very vocal. Or, when they start talking about what's Griefing / what's not, even if this discussion stems directly from the whole Block mess.

Again. I'll repeat. Block is just a duct tape for a lackluster Crime & Punishment system.

Block causes instancing problems. If Stigbob blocks EvE4evah, he's automatically way less likely to meet people who are in EvE4evah's instance, and vice versa. Even if those guys are good guys, unlike EvE4evah.

Block is subject for abuse, because it's up to the player to decide who passes and who stays out. Whatever reason he/she wants, there comes a Block.

Block is damaging for Open. Specially since nonsense threads disseminating it, just like this one, will grab the attention of many, many new players, instead of threads showing how to protect themselves, leading to a bad mood and impression about Open and the Game.

But hey, "only 0.000000000000000001% of the players are on my Block list"

OK. Preach on, OP.

Edit: as a side note. Last Monday I've got ganked by a wing of three in an Engineer system, coming back from SagA* with loads of explo data. Their interceptor was on point, and the flight commands got frozen as soon as I'd submitted. Bad server lag. So, of course I got blown up, with no chance to escape. That was totally my fault, for playing in Open with a fully jumprange fitted DBX, with downgraded shields, powergrid, thrusters and whatever. Also, I was not alert enough, after coming back from the solitude of the immense vastness. So, let's prepare players to face what Open should always be. Dangerous.

 

[Stigbob]

So a dev lead for Frontier was aware of KNOWN CHEATS and testing the blocking functionality on those players ... the alarming question here is why are KNOWN CHEATS (and KNOWN to management in development process) active in the game at all ???

I'm not sure I understand what point you are making.

 

[Cosmos]

It makes me laugh the way people set up a thread which is clearly intended as bait but then attempt to limit what other people may say in response. The modes naturally become part of the discussion when people start bleating on about 'griefing'.

As for the developers sanctimonious comments, it reads more like 'We are terrible gamers, for anyone like us here are some buttons to press to make those big nasty people go away'.. We used to be just good gamers, now in some Orwellian way we are refered to as gweefers.

Since we are on the topic of blocking people I'd like to propose that we are able to block all members of certain private groups. Its nothing personal, I'd just rather not play the game with a bunch of cry babies.

 

[EvE4evah]

It makes me laugh the way people set up a thread which is clearly intended as bait but then attempt to limit what other people may say in response. The modes naturally become part of the discussion when people start bleating on about 'griefing'.

As for the developers sanctimonious comments, it reads more like 'We are terrible gamers, for anyone like us here are some buttons to press to make those big nasty people go away'.. We used to be just good gamers, now in some Orwellian way we are refered to as gweefers.

Since we are on the topic of blocking people I'd like to propose that we are able to block all members of certain private groups. Its nothing personal, I'd just rather not play the game with a bunch of cry babies.

Inb4 the "naming" brigade.

 

[Stigbob]

Astonishes me that the mods gave their OK to a thread that is basically a copy of an old one, which got what? "Hijacked"? What does that even mean? Oh, it's when people who disagree with your PoV become very vocal. Or, when they start talking about what's Griefing / what's not, even if this discussion stems directly from the whole Block mess.

Again. I'll repeat. Block is just a duct tape for a lackluster Crime & Punishment system.

People also get very vocal when they've lost the argument.

The block function was designed and intended to deal with griefers in 2014.

Block causes instancing problems. If Stigbob blocks EvE4evah, he's automatically way less likely to meet people who are in EvE4evah's instance, and vice versa. Even if those guys are good guys, unlike EvE4evah.

Block is subject for abuse, because it's up to the player to decide who passes and who stays out. Whatever reason he/she wants, there comes a Block.

Who other than the individual player should decide who he/she plays with ?.

Block is damaging for Open. Specially since nonsense threads disseminating it, just like this one, will grab the attention of many, many new players, instead of threads showing how to protect themselves, leading to a bad mood and impression about Open and the Game.

But hey, "only 0.000000000000000001% of the players are on my Block list"

OK. Preach on, OP.

I think griefers are far more damaging for open than the ability to tailor open as you see fit. As are the arguments used in it's favour to be brutal.

Why don't you try explaining to me how you think I'll benefit by playing with the station rammers ?.