Lead Designers advice on dealing with griefing

[Stigbob]

Isn't that essentially the same thing as the, much aligned by some, kill on sight lists? It would basically be promoting witch hunting and a digital version of ex-communicating people potentially based on nothing more than rumour and hearsay or because that one person has someone on their block list for whatever personal reason unique to them.

Say for example one player gets blown up by another player once for whatever reason. The player that got blown up gets a bit vindictive and decides to make sure to get as many people as possible to block that other player so that their Open play experience is an empty one. You know, just out of spite. That would sound like greifing to me via use of the block feature no less.

Personally I only block people I've seen in game, the forum or you-tube doing things I consider blockable, I wouldn't take anyone elses list as seriously for exactly that reason cheaters gonna try to cheat.

KOS threats don't really work on anyone who will happily switch modes, report players and use the block function. Which is another positive.

 

[Martian Successor]

It all depends on the context. Ganking is killing someone, griefing is harassing someone. There is a difference between the two, although sometimes it's not a big one. Griefing is not PVP.

Correct.

Coming onto someone's ship in Multi Crew and firing all their Cell Banks, so that they boil is griefing, not ganking.

Agree.

Destroying Sidewinders in Erevate or near Trevithick Dock is griefing, not PVP.

Disagree. By definition that is considered ganking and is mechanically and technically Person vs Person. It is not honorable PvP but it is technically PvP. It's a crap thing to do but it would only be greifing if it was done to the same CMDR more than once.

Dropping bombs on a parked ship is on the border. (My opnion. Yours may differ, so may FDEV's. The latter is the final one though).

Killing parked ships is a total 'Richard' move but I would agree that it is on the border. It sure would be nice to actually hear FDev's final definition of what is and is not greifing though. That way we can all stop theory crafting and speculating about what constitutes greifing in ED.

There are many different scenarios and like I said the line is very fine - but if you feel you were harassed in game, please report the griefer via the in game tools. The more reports FDEV gets about a player, the more evidence they will have. They may take no action or they may take some action. Let them be the judge.

How does this reporting function work? Do you have to actually encounter the CMDR in the game to report them or can it be done simply by knowing their CMDR name and pressing report on their name?

 

[Jukelo]

If you only meet them once what change does it make to you if they get banned? It's not like you are going to notice because you wouldn't meet them again anyway. Unless you think the fear of getting banned is enough to make them stop. Problem is, this possibility already exists and it doesn't seem to change anything. I remember FDEV sending threatening emails around...
With the blocking feature you could start taking action right now. Also maybe they would stop once everyone blocked them and nobody plays with them anymore...

I want them punished because it's what is right. There are rules, you break them you need to pay the price. The very same way I want cheaters in solo, who aren't affecting me much either, to be punished. Any system of rules breaks down if the rules are allowed to be ignored.

 

[Gunnet]

Isn't that essentially the same thing as the, much aligned by some, kill on sight lists? It would basically be promoting witch hunting and a digital version of ex-communicating people potentially based on nothing more than rumour and hearsay or because that one person has someone on their block list for whatever personal reason unique to them.

Say for example one player gets blown up by another player once for whatever reason. The player that got blown up gets a bit vindictive and decides to make sure to get as many people as possible to block that other player so that their Open play experience is an empty one. You know, just out of spite. That would sound like greifing to me via use of the block feature no less.

I would contend that the two things are completely different. A KOS list shared between many players is a means for persistent (i.e. EULA violating) harassment targeted at the players on the list. A block list shared between many players is no different to the same group of players choosing to play in a private group, from the point of view of the people on the list.

I would be very impressed if one player could get so many other players to block somebody that their open play experience became empty unless they had solid proof of griefing. Even then, a significant fraction of players would presumably decline to subscribe to any community block list. Besides, any players who wish to block somebody because of a single kill, even a "legal" one, are entitled to do so.

 

[rootsrat]

Correct.
How does this reporting function work? Do you have to actually encounter the CMDR in the game to report them or can it be done simply by knowing their CMDR name and pressing report on their name?

It's been a while since I've reported anyone (not been griefed for a long time now to be honest and even in the past it only happened couple of times during my 2,5 year career in ED ), but as far as I remember you only need to know Cmdr name - you input all the details manually and then just press "Report" button.

 

[Martian Successor]

Personally I only block people I've seen in game, the forum or you-tube doing things I consider blockable, I wouldn't take anyone elses list as seriously for exactly that reason cheaters gonna try to cheat.

KOS threats don't really work on anyone who will happily switch modes, report players and use the block function. Which is another positive.

Well the fact that people can and will block CMDRs in the game based solely on not liking something they do outside of the game; like not liking a post in a forum or not liking their youtube video, is what doesn't sit well with me. In a previous post you mentioned that the block function is a solution and not a problem in itself. I disagree that the block function is unequivocally positive.

You draw the line at blocking players based on their conduct in the game and/or their conduct on a forum and/or their conduct in a Youtube video but others may not. Others may seek to encourage mass blocking of a player whose videos they don't like for example or for whatever other reason. For example, someone wants to troll a Twitch streamer because they didn't like their views on the Salome event. So they spread lies that this CMDR is a greifer in order to get people to block them and make Open empty for them in order to ruin their videos/live streams. In turn this might also tarnish ED's reputation indirectly by making Open seem empty to viewers who might be prospective customers/future players looking to get a glimpse before they buy .

I strongly feel that in-game blocking should only be done based on in-game conduct. To that end I think that in order to block another player you should be required to actually instance with that player at least once in the game.

 

[Martian Successor]

It's been a while since I've reported anyone (not been griefed for a long time now to be honest and even in the past it only happened couple of times during my 2,5 year career in ED ), but as far as I remember you only need to know Cmdr name - you input all the details manually and then just press "Report" button.

That is disconcerting. That means that a group of players that don't like someone's opinion on the forum can group report their CMDR name in-game and get them in trouble with FD. Wasting FD's time in the process.

That would need to be changed in my opinion if that is indeed how the report function works. In the same way I feel the block function should work; you should be required to instance with the CMDR in game at least once in order to either block or report them.

 

[Stigbob]

Well the fact that people can and will block CMDRs in the game based solely on not liking something they do outside of the game; like not liking a post in a forum or not liking their youtube video, is what doesn't sit well with me. In a previous post you mentioned that the block function is a solution and not a problem in itself. I disagree that the block function is unequivocally positive.

You draw the line at blocking players based on their conduct in the game and/or their conduct on a forum and/or their conduct in a Youtube video but others may not. Others may seek to encourage mass blocking of a player whose videos they don't like for example or for whatever other reason. For example, someone wants to troll a Twitch streamer because they didn't like their views on the Salome event. So they spread lies that this CMDR is a greifer in order to get people to block them and make Open empty for them in order to ruin their videos/live streams. In turn this might also tarnish ED's reputation indirectly by making Open seem empty to viewers who might be prospective customers/future players looking to get a glimpse before they buy .

I strongly feel that in-game blocking should only be done based on in-game conduct. To that end I think that in order to block another player you should be required to actually instance with that player at least once in the game.

You can only block people you are or have recently been instanced with.

 

[rootsrat]

That is disconcerting. That means that a group of players that don't like someone's opinion on the forum can group report their CMDR name in-game and get them in trouble with FD. Wasting FD's time in the process.

That would need to be changed in my opinion if that is indeed how the report function works. In the same way I feel the block function should work; you should be required to instance with the CMDR in game at least once in order to either block or report them.

It may have changed since the last time I've done it, not sure.

 

[Stigbob]

That is disconcerting. That means that a group of players that don't like someone's opinion on the forum can group report their CMDR name in-game and get them in trouble with FD. Wasting FD's time in the process.

That's already happening there are players actively campaigning for all menu loggers to be reported as cheats in exactly that way, even though a menu exit is completely within the rules. I imagine after the first few they get auto ignored so it's not a major issue.

 

[Stealthie]

How does this reporting function work? Do you have to actually encounter the CMDR in the game to report them or can it be done simply by knowing their CMDR name and pressing report on their name?

It's part of the comm's HUD.

Scroll down the list of CMDRs in the list (thus, only CMDRs you've seen are on the list) to the one you want to report, click them and then click on "report" and then a menu pops up where you get to choose a reason for the report and can type in what happened.

I know this because I was seriously considering reporting the twonk who was parked on the ONLY medium pad at a local platform for about 6 hours last night.
Was especially annoying cos I was winged-up with somebody and every time we needed to land there we had to quit into Solo, hand in missions, get new missions, launch and then log in and out of Open until we got instanced together again.

"Pad blocking" doesn't seem to be specifically reportable, though, so I gave it a miss.

 

[MarkAusten]

Isn't that essentially the same thing as the, much aligned by some, kill on sight lists? It would basically be promoting witch hunting and a digital version of ex-communicating people potentially based on nothing more than rumour and hearsay or because that one person has someone on their block list for whatever personal reason unique to them.

Say for example one player gets blown up by another player once for whatever reason. The player that got blown up gets a bit vindictive and decides to make sure to get as many people as possible to block that other player so that their Open play experience is an empty one. You know, just out of spite. That would sound like greifing to me via use of the block feature no less.

Now, now! Since when has an argument on this forum ever paid any attention to facts?

 

[StiTch]

Now, now! Since when has an argument on this forum ever paid any attention to facts?

Welcome to Whose Forum Is It Anyway, the place where everything’s made up and the facts don’t matter!

 

[Erasmus Boone]

JasonBarrow.

It is clear that you have some pretty strong opinions on this and seem to have the best interest of the game (as you see it) at heart but you seem to be making some pretty big assumptions about those who want to use the block function.

It isn't just about avoiding PvP or being risk adverse, sure maybe that is the case for some and yes maybe they would be better off choosing another mode.
For many though it isn't about that at all.

In my case I have given up on OPEN, whilst not being into PvP in ED I used to be a tradeer in OPEN. I rather enjoyed dealing with pirates and never really minded loosing the occasional ship.
So why did I leave OPEN?
Simply I found no fun in CGs beinging total gankfests, with OP gank squads (often doinging the station gank thing) having it too much their own way. There was no 'get gud' in the equations, getting blown up became an exercise in random luck.
Also I found the types doing it to be unpleasent in attitude, so I took my toys elsewhere.
I've never blocked anyone but if I could effectivly block the worst of the idiots, not all combat ships or all PvPers, then maybe it would be fun agian to take part.

Oh and yes it is not a substitute for effective C&P but it would be complimentary to it.

Now you can reject this and say that part of the cost of playing OPEN is sometimes you just blow up, in that case I and many others will just continue to do our thing in PGs and SOLO.

 

[Stigbob]

JasonBarrow.

It is clear that you have some pretty strong opinions on this and seem to have the best interest of the game (as you see it) at heart but you seem to be making some pretty big assumptions about those who want to use the block function.

It isn't just about avoiding PvP or being risk adverse, sure maybe that is the case for some and yes maybe they would be better off choosing another mode.
For many though it isn't about that at all.

In my case I have given up on OPEN, whilst not being into PvP in ED I used to be a tradeer in OPEN. I rather enjoyed dealing with pirates and never really minded loosing the occasional ship.
So why did I leave OPEN?
Simply I found no fun in CGs beinging total gankfests, with OP gank squads (often doinging the station gank thing) having it too much their own way. There was no 'get gud' in the equations, getting blown up became an exercise in random luck.
Also I found the types doing it to be unpleasent in attitude, so I took my toys elsewhere.
I've never blocked anyone but if I could effectivly block the worst of the idiots, not all combat ships or all PvPers, then maybe it would be fun agian to take part.

Oh and yes it is not a substitute for effective C&P but it would be complimentary to it.

Now you can reject this and say that part of the cost of playing OPEN is sometimes you just blow up, in that case I and many others will just continue to do our thing in PGs and SOLO.

If you check the OP there's a guide specifically for blocking the station griefers. I can confirm that it works very effectively, takes little effort and you can make money on a CG at the same time.

 

[Stealthie]

Welcome to Whose Forum Is It Anyway, the place where everything’s made up and the facts don’t matter!

Very true.

I was wondering if there's any evidence to support the assertion that people have actually used the block feature to "gang up on" somebody who wasn't doing anything worthy of being blocked.

*EDIT*

Might be interesting if FDev provided some way for a player to see how many times they've been blocked, and who by.
After all, until you know who you've upset enough to block you, you have no way of knowing what that person considers so utterly unacceptable and, thus, no opportunity to modify your behaviour.

 

[StiTch]

Very true.

I was wondering if there's any evidence to support the assertion that people have actually used the block feature to "gang up on" somebody who wasn't doing anything worthy of being blocked.

There have been a few forum posts about it so far in an attempt to publically advocate it...and even a YT vid of someone using it to pre-emptively try block Nitek as soon as she saw him on system entry.

Notably, it didn't work

 

[Stigbob]

There have been a few forum posts about it so far in an attempt to publically advocate it...and even a YT vid of someone using it to pre-emptively try block Nitek as soon as she saw him on system entry.

Notably, it didn't work

Link please.

 

[Martian Successor]

You can only block people you are or have recently been instanced with.

It's part of the comm's HUD.

Scroll down the list of CMDRs in the list (thus, only CMDRs you've seen are on the list) to the one you want to report, click them and then click on "report" and then a menu pops up where you get to choose a reason for the report and can type in what happened.

I know this because I was seriously considering reporting the twonk who was parked on the ONLY medium pad at a local platform for about 6 hours last night.
Was especially annoying cos I was winged-up with somebody and every time we needed to land there we had to quit into Solo, hand in missions, get new missions, launch and then log in and out of Open until we got instanced together again.

"Pad blocking" doesn't seem to be specifically reportable, though, so I gave it a miss.

Thanks for the info guys. That at least places a limit on potential abuses so that's good. My concerns now remain around the witch hunt aspects of pre-emptive blocking/reporting on sight and also how this impacts ED's ambitions as an MMO with a shared BGS but one which offers players the option of invulnerability while they can continue to affect the game world/other players.

 

[StiTch]

Link please.

I wouldn't normally if it's pointless in a discussion but I feel this is worth adding, so provided it contravenes no name/shame policies I'll replace this with link soon as I get to an actual PC to look it up on.