Lead Designers advice on dealing with griefing

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It's been there since the beginning. FD didn't just invent the Block list yesterday. They did just make it much more practical, and easy to use, but it's nothing new.

The Friends list has more influence on instancing than the Block list does. I am more likely to be instanced with your friends just by being instanced with you. How do you think that make my feelies?
 
I disagree, the idea of blocking a player because you do not enjoy how he plays in open is detrimental to the overall benefits we get from interacting between us. What's the point to play in open if everybody are blocking each others?

What am I supposed to tell my friend who's getting shot by someone else who blocked me? Oh right, you should just block him since I can't see him.

Being part of a controversial group or playing differently isn't an excuse or enough to warrant to have such a feature in place. Oh, yeah let's ban all guns because one dude decided to shoot someone.

There are far better ways to minimize the losses associated to PVP and make social interactions in a video game more rewarding and not just a mindless festival of pew pew without any depth attached to it.

The devs have essentially decided that it was easier to just do a quick band-aid fix by ostracizing certain area of gameplay because they are more likely to be less desirable or less popular, putting those who enjoy participating in those said activies at a higher risk of getting blocked.

It's not a good design, period.
If somebody chooses to block a player, I think it's reasonable to assume that they weren't receiving any benefit (in terms of gameplay enjoyment) from interacting with them. Sandro's comments about the health of the game suggest that Frontier's private statistics show the game itself doesn't benefit either.

As you say, there would be little point to playing in open if everybody was blocking everybody else, but that's not going to be the case here any more than it is in other online environments which offer a block function. Take the forums for example; most of us have probably been blocked by somebody, but everybody's posts can be read by enough other people that there's no lack of conversation. The only way to find yourself blocked by such a large fraction of users that you end up isolated is by being an outright troll.

The gun control analogy doesn't apply to this situation. It's more like "one dude decided to shoot someone, let's not force random people to visit the range with him".
 
If somebody chooses to block a player, I think it's reasonable to assume that they weren't receiving any benefit (in terms of gameplay enjoyment) from interacting with them. Sandro's comments about the health of the game suggest that Frontier's private statistics show the game itself doesn't benefit either.

As you say, there would be little point to playing in open if everybody was blocking everybody else, but that's not going to be the case here any more than it is in other online environments which offer a block function. Take the forums for example; most of us have probably been blocked by somebody, but everybody's posts can be read by enough other people that there's no lack of conversation. The only way to find yourself blocked by such a large fraction of users that you end up isolated is by being an outright troll.

The gun control analogy doesn't apply to this situation. It's more like "one dude decided to shoot someone, let's not force random people to visit the range with him".
The difference here is the game is peer to peer and interactions are minimal, you are not going to instance with everybody which is why this feature is not good for this sort of online environment.

Also the analogy does apply to this situation. You can't ostracize all players that do a less desirable activity because a few players decided to pew pew on everybody. That feature can be abused by everybody mind you, just like combat logging. Whether or not PVP is good for the health of the game is irrelevant, it's part of the game and was inherently designed to be an integral part of the core experience.

If you think PVP is so detrimental to the overal health of the game then just remove it, don't make us suffer the negative impact associated with the abuse of this feature.
 
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Now, if you had just stopped here, I would be left with nothing much to say against your position beyond pointing out that the CG is a competitive environment. What you call station griefing might actually be "legitimate" gameplay, depending on the context.

But you went on:

This sounds like you're using the block list as a form of meta PvP and enjoying it. Not that there is anything particularly wrong with doing that.

But it does bring us back to my original question.
I thought this was just 'a few commanders'. How long is the list now? Just curious. Problem with lists, is that they tend to grow. If you have to start scrolling, well, best of luck. o7
There are two types of CMDR's on my block list, engineers cheats and station rammers nobody else (quite a bit of crossover with CMDR's who are both). Neither of those player types offer anything I want in my game, whats in it for me to play with them ?.
 
I disagree, the idea of blocking a player because you do not enjoy how he plays in open is detrimental to the overall benefits we get from interacting between us. What's the point to play in open if everybody are blocking each others? The whole idea behind open was to be able to interact with other players at all time in a single giant universe.
What are the overall benefits of playing a game with people who cheat, ram in stations or both for a legit player like me ?.
 
There are two types of CMDR's on my block list, engineers cheats and station rammers nobody else (quite a bit of crossover with CMDR's who are both). Neither of those player types offer anything I want in my game, whats in it for me to play with them ?.
How did you come to a conclusion that someone was cheating the engineers just curious?

Do you just magically know that someone is cheating or is it just because you don't like that person and had to find a terrible excuse for abusing that feature? I can understand why you would block station rammers, not that everybody does it on purpose mind you.

Honest question.

What are the overall benefits of playing a game with people who cheat, ram in stations or both for a legit player like me ?.
Are you making the assumption that I am a cheater and station rammer because I am a PVP player?

What about you, are you a cheater because you don't take part in PVP?

Do you see now why this feature can be abused and is terrible?
 
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How did you come to a conclusion that someone was cheating the engineers just curious?

Do you just magically know that someone is cheating or is it just because you don't like that person and had to find a terrible excuse for abusing that feature? I can understand why you would block station rammers, not that everybody does it on purpose mind you.

Honest question.
(cut and paste from earlier) Any self confessed engineers cheat from the forum or reddit is there, bar one who seems to be the decent sort. Plus every station griefer I've been able to tag. It's barely into double figures to be honest, but obviously it is a work in progress.

The main thing I don't like about the engineers exploit is the cheats sat on it for a year taking advantage. Then when caught out and punished complained it was no different to any well known cash exploit. The main difference in my opinion being everyone knows about cash exploits and can exploit them if they choose (I choose not to), whereas the engineer cheat was used to gain advantage by a small number in secret for a year whilst telling everyone how great they were and that they should "git gud" to compete. When you add that some of the people running the combat logging/menu logging KOS reddit thread are known engineer cheats it goes beyond the point I want to play with them. Primarily because of their hypocrisy and the likelihood of them cheating again in future.

Are you making the assumption that I am a cheater and station rammer because I am a PVP player?

What about you, are you a cheater because you don't take part in PVP?

Do you see now why this feature can be abused and is terrible?
No I'm assuming you haven't read the OP, as it clearly says I like PVP. I've no reason to think either of my criteria apply to you, you also say you've ragequit the game so it's an academic question anyway.

I think this feature is working exactly as intended, and exactly as described prior to the game launching.

I've answered your questions so back to mine. What are the overall benefits of playing a game with people who cheat, ram in stations or both for a legit player like me ?.
 
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(cut and paste from earlier) Any self confessed engineers cheat from the forum or reddit is there, bar one who seems to be the decent sort. Plus every station griefer I've been able to tag. It's barely into double figures to be honest, but obviously it is a work in progress.

The main thing I don't like about the engineers exploit is the cheats sat on it for a year taking advantage. Then when caught out and punished complained it was no different to any well known cash exploit. The main difference in my opinion being everyone knows about cash exploits and can exploit them if they choose (I choose not to), whereas the engineer cheat was used to gain advantage by a small number in secret for a year whilst telling everyone how great they were and that they should "git gud" to compete. When you add that some of the people running the combat logging/menu logging KOS reddit thread are known engineer cheats it goes beyond the point I want to play with them. Primarily because of their hypocrisy and the likelihood of them cheating again in future.



No I'm assuming you haven't read the OP, as it clearly says I like PVP. I've no reason to think either of my criteria apply to you, you also say you've ragequit the game so it's an academic question anyway.

I think this feature is working exactly as intended, and exactly as described prior to the game launching.

I've answered your questions so back to mine. What are the overall benefits of playing a game with people who cheat, ram in stations or both for a legit player like me ?.
Okay, first of all I did read the entire thread including the OP, again your making assumptions. You also avoided the question so I'm going to ask again how do you determinate if someone is cheating the engineers? There's no possible way you can prove someone is cheating from a forum or reddit post mind you so again like I previously said: you are using the feature based on assumptions which can be easily abused.

How many people do you think do the exact same thing but don't take cheating into consideration?

I never said I "rage quitted", I said and I quote "I don't bother to play the game anymore. I just come here on the forums and check the regular updates hoping that one day the devs are going to produce something worthwhile".

How is that remotely considered "rage quitting" if I keep myself updated and post here? Do you think I would waste my time here if that was the case and take part in serious discussions about the game? Clearly not. As for my question regarding being a PVP player, I wasn't specifically saying that you are not a PVP player. I was merely using it as an argument to illustrate the logic behind what you just said.

You see where I am going with this?

I never implied that there was benefits to play with cheaters or station rammers, if you paid attention to my last 3 posts you would have understood that by now but reading doesn't seem to your forte.

I'll help you out since this is difficult for you (quote from my first post page 16):

"The blocking feature is terrible in terms of design. As much as I agree with the fact that it's a great feature to instantly block hackers, cheaters and exploiters. It is abused by a horde of people against legitimate players that just enjoy playing a different playstyle"

No one can prove beyond reasonable of a doubt if someone is really cheating. There's too many factors unless they make it incredibly obvious in-game like using infinite shields or do impossible thing's like jumping across the galaxy...etc but again it could just be lag or connection problems which is why many games do not have features like the "blocking" function because it could potentially discrimate these players and punish them for doing nothing.

That's why it should be the job of Frontier to properly investigate those issues and not leave it to the community which could result to a promoted witch hunt like we've seen here before.
 
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Okay, first of all I did read the entire thread including the OP, again your making assumptions. You also avoided the question so I'm going to ask again how do you determinate if someone is cheating the engineers? There's no possible way you can prove someone is cheating from a forum or reddit post mind you so again like I previously said: you are using the feature based on assumptions which can be easily abused. How many people you think do the same thing but don't take cheating into consideration?
Any self confessed engineers cheat from the forum or reddit is there. Why would I be interested in or need proof beyond their own words ?.

I never said I "rage quitted", I said and I quote "I don't bother to play the game anymore. I just come here on the forums and check the regular updates hoping that one day the devs are going to produce something worthwhile".

How is that remotely considered "rage quitting" if I keep myself updated and post here? Do you think I would waste my time here if that was the case and take part in serious discussions about the game? Clearly not. As for my question regarding being a PVP player, I wasn't specifically saying you are not a PVP player. I was merely using it as an argument to illustrate the logic behind what you just said.

You see where I am going with this?
Yes you want to argue terminology and I'm not interested, you don't like it so you've stopped playing. Call it whatever you want.

I never implied that there was benefits to play with cheaters or station rammers, if you paid attention to my last 3 posts you would have understood that by now but reading doesn't seem to your forte.
How does that fit in with your argument that the block function damages the open experience. What does a cheat or a griefer add to the open experience for a legit player like me ?.

I'll help you out since this is difficult for you (quote from my first post page 16):

"The blocking feature is terrible in terms of design. As much as I agree with the fact that it's a great feature to instantly block hackers, cheaters and exploiters. It is abused by a horde of people against legitimate players that just enjoy playing a different playstyle"
Honestly why do you worry about what they do ?, if they take that approach they'll not hang around for the fight you want anyway so you are probably better off not playing with them in the first place.
 
The Friends list has more influence on instancing than the Block list does. I am more likely to be instanced with your friends just by being instanced with you. How do you think that make my feelies?
Not disputing this, I'm really asking out of curiosity:

Has anyone done any test on this, preferably with video footage on YouTube? Simple test really, players A, B, C, players A and B are on each other's friends list, player C is not. Player C blocks player A. Player B attacks player C in a certain system. Can player A jump to that system and be successfully instanced with both B and C as they duke it out? Repeat test a couple of times in different systems with different traffic from other players.
 
Any self confessed engineers cheat from the forum or reddit is there. Why would I be interested in or need proof beyond their own words ?.
Right because blocking someone and then denying him a possible interaction with you in a said future based on an internet post that could have been made by someone else pretending to be that person is enough proof to warrant a block. It's a good thing you are not working for their customer support, we'd have everybody banned by now if we had to use reddit as tangible proof.

How does that fit in with your argument that the block function damages the open experience. What does a cheat or a griefer add to the open experience for a legit player like me ?.
Go read my second and third post and the bottom of the post you quoted.


Honestly why do you worry about what they do ?, if they take that approach they'll not hang around for the fight you want anyway so you are probably better off not playing with them in the first place.
Sigh....
 
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Yes you want to argue terminology and I'm not interested, you don't like it so you've stopped playing. Call it whatever you want.
You're the one who started making baseless assumptions, I am providing you with an answer and you are not interested? maybe don't bring it up next time if you can't debate properly.
 
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Yaffle

Volunteer Moderator
All

Cut out the sniping and personal comments. If someone does have a go at you, report it. Do not respond.
 
Right because blocking someone and then denying him a possible interaction with you in a said future based on an internet post that could have been made by someone else pretending to be that person is enough proof to warrant a block. It's a good thing you are not working for their customer support, we'd have everybody banned by now if we had to use reddit as tangible proof.
Believe it or not I'm aware that a lot of the cheats/griefers use different names in the forum to the game. Obviously I can't give you examples in the thread as it would breach the no naming and shaming rule, but I can assure you that I block in game names only. It's not hard to find out the CMDR name of someone who for example uploads a video to youtube showing themselves station ramming, conveniently enough along with the CMDR names of all their wingmates across the top of the screen.

(That raises another issue should forum access require you to display your in-game name, but that's off topic).
 
Believe it or not I'm aware that a lot of the cheats/griefers use different names in the forum to the game. Obviously I can't give you examples in the thread as it would breach the no naming and shaming rule, but I can assure you that I block in game names only. It's not hard to find out the CMDR name of someone who for example uploads a video to youtube showing themselves station ramming, conveniently enough along with the CMDR names of all their wingmates across the top of the screen.

(That raises another issue should forum access require you to display your in-game name, but that's off topic).
That would certainly do it. Somewhat obvious, and possibly just a tad, hm, how should I put this? I want to say stupid but don't want to annoy Yaffle anymore than he already about this thread so perhaps oblivious is a better word. So yes somewhat obvious and possibly just a tad oblivious.

Doesn't sound correct but will have to do for the nonce.
 
So it becomes clear again that the no. 1 reason against blocking is "I'll have less victims". This shows that many PvP players are cowards who only attack weaker players who are not very much interested in PvP in the first place. It's also a very subjective opinion since being the aggressor and someone else being the victim is a very one-sided form of enjoyment. It's also clear that these players are in the minority but they have the power to spoil the game for many other players. They claim that a block funtion would fragment the player base while it's their toxic behaviour that fragmented the player base in the first place.

On the other hand people want to play the game without cheaters, exlpoiters, griefers, they want to have real PvP (what some people are talking about is not PvP, it's Player attacks Player), they don't want to get blown up for no reason, proper piracy, they don't want combat loggers, etc. A block feature would make Open a better place for these people.

Why exactly should your enjoyment be more important? Your enjoyment requires that other people want to play with you. People should say 'pretty please with sugar on top play with me and be my victim' instead of demanding that everyone plays the game in their wicked way.
 
You know, babelfisch, this is what PG was originally intended for. Small groups either having at it, or not, at their discression. I don't sit here and bag out solo players for playing solo. Or PG. Fly whatever mode works for you.

But this angsty garbage about how people should play in Open is older than my birth certificate. Move on. No one cares. Least of all the developer. Who could make changes, but has elected not to.

If open isn't one person's thing? Fair enough. Pretty sure folks can make that decision for themselves, without being endlessly PVL'd to death (player versus lecture).

We have a gigantic endless hotel thread for that - take it there. The lecture ganking. It's become a thing; good lord.
 
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So it becomes clear again that the no. 1 reason against blocking is "I'll have less victims". This shows that many PvP players are cowards who only attack weaker players who are not very much interested in PvP in the first place. It's also a very subjective opinion since being the aggressor and someone else being the victim is a very one-sided form of enjoyment. It's also clear that these players are in the minority but they have the power to spoil the game for many other players. They claim that a block funtion would fragment the player base while it's their toxic behaviour that fragmented the player base in the first place.

On the other hand people want to play the game without cheaters, exlpoiters, griefers, they want to have real PvP (what some people are talking about is not PvP, it's Player attacks Player), they don't want to get blown up for no reason, proper piracy, they don't want combat loggers, etc. A block feature would make Open a better place for these people.

Why exactly should your enjoyment be more important? Your enjoyment requires that other people want to play with you. People should say 'pretty please with sugar on top play with me and be my victim' instead of demanding that everyone plays the game in their wicked way.
Very true, you've also hit on why CQC is claimed to be so unpopular (I think). What with everyone in CQC being willing ready and able to fight it holds no attraction for the type of player you describe.
 
You know, babelfisch, this is what PG was originally intended for. Small groups either having at it, or not, at their discression. I don't sit here and bag out solo players for playing solo. Or PG. Fly whatever mode works for you.

But this angsty garbage about how people should play in Open is older than my birth certificate. Move on. No one cares. Least of all the developer. Who could make changes, but has elected not to.

If open isn't one person's thing? Fair enough. Pretty sure folks can make that decision for themselves, without being endlessly PVL'd to death (player versus lecture).

We have a gigantic endless hotel thread for that - take it there. The lecture ganking. It's become a thing; good lord.
Funny enough, the same argument goes for the other side. Don't like the block funtion? Play in a PG that doesn't allow blocking. Complain about blocking? Nobody cares, move on. Least of all the developer since it's them who introduced this feature. Don't like I how showed someones argument is only fueled by his fear of losing the victims and fighting real players? Don't post on the forums.

PS
And what you still don't understand:
I am not against PvP. I also have no problem with Open being dangerous. It's part of the PvP crowd on this forum who doens't like danger.
 
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