LIFETIME Expansion pass, and Python Mk2

Archvillain

Archvillain
Phoenix_Dfire said:
If you got your LEP as part of the Kickstarter, (Digital Download Pack for £80 I think it was) then effectively you're already saved money. Elite was originally £40, as was Horizons, then Odyssey (£30) on top of that + £10 or so of freebies. So It's the folks that got the LEP when at Horizons that are out of pocket.
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Yup and that's fair too; the first LEP was cheap because it was a huge risk; there was no way for anyone (least of all FDev) to know if FDev would survive long enough to make any expansions. But it wasn't just a gamble, it was also a means to try to make that immediate survival more likely by raising extra money.

By the time the second LEP was offered, it was clear that FDev had managed to secure its survival for the near future, so the gamble shifted to being more about how optimistic you were about how much long-term extra content could happen in the future. If you thought it would be a lot then the gamble could pay off, but as before, it was also a way to make longer term survival more likely by giving extra financial support (arguably getting a sort of super-supporter prestige in the exchange).

From the very beginning LEP was portrayed as a gamble against the unknown future. Gambles don't always pay off, but this one did pay off - we secured the full hoped-for ten years of ongoing development, the best-case scenario that was suggested at the time. Yet still some people are determined to stay angry at FDev because FDev hasn't charged others enough for those ten years of updates to exceed the price of the most expensive LEP.
 
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amigacooke

amigacooke
Archvillain said:
Yet still some people are determined to stay angry at FDev because FDev hasn't charged others enough for those ten years of updates to exceed the price of the most expensive LEP.
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As has been pointed out many times, Frontier are not a charity and that works both ways. If I am saving money because I have an LEP equivalent, I would like to continue to do so as per the agreement made with Frontier. I'm mostly aggrieved (not actually angry) because Frontier have still not delivered what was trailed a decade ago.

They may continue to not deliver, I may continue to feel aggrieved :)
 

mr.wolfie

M
Trailblazers is an expansion in all but name. New ships are an integral part of "Expansions and Updates". LEP holders should get access to them for "free". Cosmetics are not and have never been integral to the game, their availability for micro-payments has never been challenged - but ships are different. their inclusion in the ARX system is against the spirit (and quite possibly the actual terms) of the LEP and borderline pay-to-win.
 

[VR] Mad Mike

[VR] Mad Mike
Phoenix_Dfire said:
If you got the LEP, then you should have got about $15 worth of free ARX when Beyond came out. Not that we're all keeping count ;)
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are you sure? I genuinely do not remember getting that but you could be right.
i have not spent a single ARX yet as was waiting for something to spend them on which i fancied........ i do plan to change the look of my fleet carrier and also plan on naming Mad Mikes Glory Hole Mining HQ on my space station when i finish it (assuming there are enough characters to fit it on)
 

Cmdr Sharky

Cmdr Sharky
I would expect an actual content expansion to be free for lifetime pass holders. I don't know how many sales they'd be sacrificing to honour lifetime passes.

I've spent a few hundred £ on ARX over the last few years, bought some skins and bobbles, a Mandalay and a Cobra V.
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Archvillain

Archvillain
amigacooke said:
I'm mostly aggrieved (not actually angry) because Frontier have still not delivered what was trailed a decade ago.:)
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They did deliver it - we got the ten years of content. Do you mean there were specific ideas discussed and you consider those aspirations to be binding promises, such that even if you got another full ten years of content you will remain aggrieved forever because you still can't land on Earth-like worlds?

I guess a lot of people don't have much window into how game production works. A game's GDD (game design document) seems in many ways like plans/blueprints for the game, because it sort of tries to be like that, but it's more accurate to think of it as the starting direction for an expedition into uncharted waters, where new solutions will constantly have to be invented to solve problems that have never been faced before, so there is no way the early ideas will survive contact with what is discovered along the way. The GDD is never (and should never be) followed slavishly, because it never knew what would be learned, what things would turn out to be more important than anticipated, or more fun, or more expensive, or what trade-offs they have, or mutually exclusive with solutions to something else, etc.

Even multi-billion-dollar veteran industry-leading publishers who own their own games studios and directly the pay the salaries of everyone working there - paying them to make the game they're told to make - not even those publishers get the game they asked for, and signed off on, and paid for. They get the game that started out in that direction, and they understand that the somewhat different game (that resulted from setting off in that direction) is better than the disaster of trying to force production to put early concepts above the realities later found on the ground.

A good-faith and informed understanding of what the LEP was can't include specific aspirations as if they are owed or promised, rather than the early ideas and inspirations they were. Game production always adjusts as it goes. The GDD was always the starting direction, never the final route.
 
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Arioch

Arioch
Archvillain said:
They did deliver it - we got the ten years of content. Do you mean there were specific ideas discussed and you consider those aspirations to be binding promises, such that even if you got another full ten years of content you will remain aggrieved forever because you still can't land on Earth-like worlds?
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The ten years thing was never part of the Kickstarter - it was something said by Michael Brookes (if I recall correctly) where he reckoned they had enough content for the next ten years. The ten year plan was a fan invention based on this.

What was promised* during the campaign includes a number of things still not in the game such as ship interiors. Check out the FAQ if you’d like to refresh your memory, for example the section titled “Can I leave the spaceship?” As a bonus, check out the “Will I have to pay for updates, or expansions, or new content?” section below it and ponder how that might be related to this thread.

Plans change over the years and I’ve pretty much given up hope of seeing the things trailed in the KS videos - the cloud tech was something I was particularly looking forward to - but money was solicited by statements worded like “you will be able to (do thing), you will be able to (do other thing), just not in the initial release” and I do not subscribe to the schoolyard mentality of “but he never used the word ‘promise’ so it was never a promise.” 😁👍

*not “aspired” to
 

Archvillain

Archvillain
Arioch said:
Check out the FAQ if you’d like to refresh your memory, for example the section titled “Can I leave the spaceship?” As a bonus, check out the “Will I have to pay for updates, or expansions, or new content?”
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Holy carp, I didn't remember until revisiting that quite how right I was that they didn't promise anything that we don't already have, but i guess there's always people determined to imagine otherwise and nurture a chip on their shoulder. The FAQ suggested that at some point we could leave our ship and explore stations and our ship - not only is this already in the game (I've left my ships to climb all over them exploring the details and taking selfies) - but if you're also hoping for ship interiors in addition to being able to leave your ship (as it sounds like you are) they're still busy making new updates that "add to the game in stages" and giving the updates to us LEP holders, just as they said

The game has delivered above and beyond reasonable expectation already ... and of course they're still giving us more and more, with no end in sight.

This is all so stupid
 
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Arioch

Arioch
Archvillain said:
The LEP has been delivered on above and beyond reasonable expectation already ...
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Uh huh - tell that to the players who bought the LEP for £130 😂👍

There’s always people determined to imagine the KS videos don’t exist and things said were never actually said or weren’t actually promises or don’t really apply anymore because it was oh so long ago…
 

amigacooke

amigacooke
Arioch said:
Uh huh - tell that to the players who bought the LEP for £130 😂👍

There’s always people determined to imagine the KS videos don’t exist and things said were never actually said or weren’t actually promises or don’t really apply anymore because it was oh so long ago…
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You forgot Newsletter 32 :)

To Launch, And Beyond with the Lifetime Expansion Pass​

Elite: Dangerous is on track to launch in late 2014 (Q4).

But that won’t stop development. We plan to continue to significantly enhance the game via further expansions after the launch date, using the same incremental development philosophy that we’ve used so far.

Major new features will include planetary landings and even walking around inside ships, stations, and planet surfaces with time.

For those who have a Lifetime Expansion Pass (included in Premium Beta and Alpha, and also still available here until 29th July) all such significant expansion will be included. Those without the Lifetime Expansion Pass will be charged for each expansion as they are released.

We have made no secret that our ultimate ambition is to be able to land on the surface of planets, as you were able to in the other Elite sequels Frontier and Frontier: First Encounters.

We want this feature to push the boundaries as we believe we are doing in other areas of Elite: Dangerous already, like space flight, combat, trading, sound, online, visual fidelity etc.

An Orbis station in Frontier

An Orbis station in Elite: Dangerous.

That means rich, varied experiences. Not just landing pads, but rich content on the surfaces, surface vehicles, the ability to stash things there, to explore. Clearly ‘doing it right’ like this will take time, but we have a plan and will get there via a series of meaningful releases.

We believe that each stage will be incredible, and the result truly breathtaking. What you will see on the worlds will be a mix of procedurally generated content, particularly the landscapes, cloudscapes, compositions and so on, mixed with hand-crafted elements.

Planetary landing in Frontier

Concept piece for planetary landing in Elite: Dangerous

We also plan to allow you to get up out of your seat and walk around your ship. You can see the level of attention and thought that has already been given to the ship interiors from these ship cockpit views in this video:

All is ready for you to walk around your ship.

Of course walking round your ship will be nice, but it is the just springboard for a very significant expansion of gameplay – you will be able to experience the inside of starports and interact with other players and AI characters, and even board other people’s ships in space and take them by force, as shown in this concept piece.

Of course this will be further expanded to include walking around on the surfaces of planets too.

Alpha and Premium Beta customers, and those who have already bought the £35 Lifetime Expansion Pass alongside either Beta or the full game, will have access to all these features and updates for as long as we create them at no further cost.

This means that if we are as successful as we hope to be, you will still be benefiting from the fantastic early support you gave us for a long time to come.

On 29th July the Lifetime Expansion Pass will no longer be available to buy in the store shop, to coincide with the launch of Beta 1.

So if you are planning to join the Beta or buy the final game and want to add the Lifetime Expansion Pass, you now have until 29th July to get automatic access to all future major paid-for expansions of Elite: Dangerous for £35.

You can purchase the Lifetime Expansion Pass here.

Each paid-for expansion will subsequently be put on sale separately (for people that don’t have the Lifetime Expansion Pass).
 

[VR] Mad Mike

[VR] Mad Mike
i dont have a grievance but i just have an issue with changing history.

were any of the pitches legal promises? no of course not.

but were the features in the DDF used as a sales hook to dig deep and keep jontying up? hell yes!.
FD do not legally owe us anything over what has been delivered and plans do change, however i think morally, not legally FD do owe it to use to explain why they do not think, lets say ships crew with different roles and with back stories and what not would either add to the game or are worth the investment.

or to put us out of our misery and let us know that more planetary landings and EVA and proper ships crew are no longer in the plan.

I have actually accepted it now but i will still call out people who are trying to pretend none of it was ever a thing used by FD to get more on board.

Also the argument of its was ages ago anything that FD said is irrelevant now is hugely double standards.

When the game 1st launched and some people asked "where is feature X"
the reply was almost always on the lines of (and i said this as well) Feature X was never a launch feature, some of what was detailed will take years! be patient and wait for FD to announce somthing. imo this is a solid explanation.

however at some point that changed from that to..................... FD said that ages ago you cant hold them to that it is unreasonable.... OR FD never said that dont be silly. As far as i am concerned until FD tell us otherwise in a clear way, then its not unreasonable to expect them to honour their original pitch.

personally what i would like to see / hear from FD would be an honest account of where Elite is at, where FD feel they did well, and where there was a swing and a miss..... and for them to let us know what features may still be on the table and what are gone - but just to be honest and say "yes we did say we would have feature X but we just could not make it work so it isnt gonna happen.

I am done expecting anything from Elite now so everything we do get is a bonus...... but at the same time i wont re invent history to pretend Elite wasnt hugely over sold feature wise. For the record i am done on kickstarters now so wont be an issue any more. I may buy early access but that will be only what is there at the time... i will ignore any future content "promises" (note the " " ) and i will expect to pay significantly less for me to pay up front. No more will i go on good faith and i certainly wont pay over the launch price.

I dont hold FD to every detail they ever teased but i do expect honesty and for them to keep those who backed early on in the loop when plans change, again not from any legal point of view but just as a good manners point of view. many of use paid far more than any other game precisely because of how it was pitched and to be along for the ride.
 
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[VR] Mad Mike

[VR] Mad Mike
Cmdr Sharky said:
Jonty... that takes me back... what an censored that guy turned out to be!
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ooooooooo sounds like there is some drama there which passed me by!. as much as i would love to ask what happened, i wont as that would go against forum rules on naming and shaming i guess.
I will say, i cant remember specifically everyone i met, but every single person i did have the pleasure to meet at the Duxford launch party (and the pre launch gathering the day before) were legends (both staff and backers alike)
 
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Fizzatron

Fizzatron
The crux of the LEP dispute is moot due to the fact that Elite is still in development so trying to get all legalese about it is pointless until Frontier categorically state that they are halting development of the game, which they have not and there is no grounds for any reasonable expectation that they will by the looks of the development roadmap they have announced, proving any claim that Frontier are halting development to be rather spurious from the perspective of anyone at this point in time.

Now, being upset at the pace of development is understandable but trying to pivot that complaint to justify the claim that the LEP has not been fulfilled is an attempt at misdirection, intended or not.

To look at the financial aspect of the LEP as a like for like sum of the price of the LEP to compare the value for money exchange is fine, and based on that the equation for some still leaves value on the table and for others still some to break even. But again, this will only become relevant at such time that Frontier announce that they will not be releasing any more paid updates, which they have not.

It's also subjective as to whether anyone likes or dislikes the fact that Frontier have deemed the early access ship PDLC to not be encompassed by the LEP and whether anyone feels that Frontier should 'be nice' and give early access to LEP holders. If things over the last couple of years were different then I can see it but I personally don't have an issue with it. I don't have an LEP, only because I ended up leaving it too late, and if I had gotten the LEP, I would still be fine with the situation as is, but again, that's just my subjective view on it. I don't think there's any relevant legal argument to be made against it either.

Now, if Frontier choose to switch from releasing paid expansions to using early access ship sales & other pdlc to fund expansions to be released for "free", then I would understand that there could be a need to settle with LEP holders to resolve any reasonable outstanding value disparity some LEP holders feel they are due. But yet again, that would depend on that intention to switch being formally announced.

Personally, I think the early access ships etc.. will likely/hopefully help justify and fund future paid expansions, and might contribute to them being released for around $20 rather than $60, but that's also down to a lot of equations that none of us can know. I would be surprised to see Frontier move to free future expansions funded by early access ships, so again, I don't think LEP holders are being left out but rather being asked to be patient.

FWIW; I think the income earned by the game from last year and this year will be used (among others) as a metric for the scope of any future paid expansion developement, and if this year is like the last it wouldn't surprise me to see an announcement of intent for the next expansion towards the end of this year, or early in 2026.
 
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