Bob Lighthouse
Banned
Agreed, the mats are what most people really have a problem with.
I enjoy the engineers, it's objectively rewarding.
I enjoy the engineers, it's objectively rewarding.
Livestream - Beyond Focused Feedback: Engineers
- Thread starter Edward Lewis
- Start date
I think that’s exactly what Frontier means. With enough blueprint rolls on a particular mod everyone will “creep” towards having the same close to perfect mod. The intent is to both level the playing field and lessen the grind. With God ships gone or minimized suddenly skill becomes important again, and with the gambling aspect greatly lowered the engineers won’t waste so much of the players time. Both good things IMHO. Player skill over player luck.
However, I believe this may be why Sandro is talking about experimental effects you can choose for every blueprint (replacing the current secondary effects). Having several additional effects to apply to every modded module allows one more layer of customization by which players can further create a unique ship. For example: one explorer might want his Asp to have a little bit of extra range on top of his FSD mod, while another explorer might want better heat efficiency instead. Experimental effects can do that.
I think the changes sound mostly good, and will help make the engineer feature much more pleasant and less punishing to player morale. Player choice is almost always preferable to player luck when it comes to time consuming grinds.
Whilst I like the general idea of the "getting what you pay for" I'll be sad to see secondary effects go completely - many special coveted modules are due to secondary effects, whilst I agree it can be frustrating having an otherwise great module wrecked by one - why not just take the bad bits out and leave the good (blue bits) the engineer was just having a really good day.
Yes this might mean researching a higher level could give you a worse module - two ways around this - one does it matter? you've still got the better module! Or just keep the component from the old mod that was better.
Just my thoughts!
Tom
Yes this might mean researching a higher level could give you a worse module - two ways around this - one does it matter? you've still got the better module! Or just keep the component from the old mod that was better.
Just my thoughts!
Tom
In short very happy with all changes proposed in stream, well thought out and should relieve a big amount of the grinding required
Thumbs up from me
Thumbs up from me
- no more secondary effects - Hmm, not sure I like that. To me, the secondary effects are what made a module 'unique' and not a clone of everyone else's. Get a ship load of modules with random good secondaries and you have a unique ship.
- always get better rolls with subsequent attempts - Yeah, I can go with this
- penalties of a blueprint will be fixed and not within a range anymore - This will certainly cut down on the amount of rolls made for a decent module!
- pinned blueprints can be crafted anywhere where is outfitting - Just no! What's the point of having an Engineer in the first place then? Having to go there to get the module upgraded is realistic and never exactly very far, even with a low jump range ship!
- experimental effects on weapons will no longer be randomly applied and can no longer be bought for favours, instead you pay extra materials to get these effects - Nice one. This I like
- there will be "preset rolls with effects" to buy - Fair enough as long as you can't just buy a lvl5 top end roll!
- no more losing reputation with an engineer - At last!
- there will be a material trader at starports - A definate improvement!
- old rolls will persist after update - Thank Braben for that! I've invested hundreds of hours in engineering the fleet I have and would go ape if all that work was lost!
- STORAGE CAP INCREASED! probably 100 per material - As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, this will penalise Explorers. I'm currently on the Dead End Circumnavigation expedition, and much of the distance I've travelled would not have been possible without being able to stack more materials than that cap for Jumponium!
- module storage may be increased as well, but there has to be a cost for that (probably credits for rental) - Yes, I like that!
- G5 mods can only be reached by subsequently improving lower grade mods - A bit ambivelant on that, as I normally go through that exact process just trying to unlock progressive levels of an Engineer. Or does that mean you have to go through that process for every module? If so, that's not good at all!
All in all, out of the 12 changes mentioned above, I hate only 3 or 4 of them, so an overall thumbs up! The main ones I hate are the 'no more secondary effects' and 'pinned blueprints can be crafted anywhere'. Just no on those two for me!
These are the only things that I disagree with being changed for two separate reasons.
(1)Why completely remove secondary effects if it results in having to increase base blueprint stats? I believe micro/secondary packages could be introduced that you can select for additional materials, just like special effects.
There could be a mass reduction package that has a negative impact on integrity, a damage package that increases distributor/power draw or ammo mag capacity, etc.
No need to increase the gap between stock and engineered even further.
(2)Dear god why?! It’s a FTP mobile game level system. It’s either RNG (which currently is weighted in our favour for positive results in some way) or blatant padding meant to get you to skip/speed it up by paying a premium currency (which we don’t have).
Going from G1 access to G5 once is bad enough but for literally every single module you want to engineer?
That’s just cruel, but we’ll get a sense of pride and accomplishment for completely engineering a G5 ship, so it’s not all bad!
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I think that means that piloting skills might be required. You got to admit that with certain upgrades, you can build yourself a real killer ship, able to take out the FSD of *any* ship within 10 seconds. That's ridiculous. Now, at least, people will be able to be more on a playing field without having to grind for the material needed to counter these over the top engineered weapons. I think those who will be mostly against this are the PvPers who built themselves those killer ships.
This argument circulates in most of the games i mentioned. Rewarding Skill over Luck seems like a very fair deal. But is it indeed so? Usually most of the players defending skill over luck policy are exactly those who have the skills. And what is "Skill" in a MMO game? No matter if you are a fighter pilot in ED or a warrior in Rift or a mage in WoW, the most important skills you need are quick reactions and finger agility. Usually teenagers and people in their early 20s excel in this. What about all the rest? Should all the players who are not that agile accept that they will always be on the bottom of the food chain, without any chance to be competitive? Or they should all just quit playing? How successful the game would be and what that skilled minority of players will do if all the unskilled players leave the game? Luck gives some hope to the less skilled players they will be able to compete. And that keeps them playing.
Personally i am an Explorer. I dont fly in Open and dont do PVP. So not sure what you mean by that FSD in 10 sec example. In any case, if any overpowered upgrades exist - FD should address those and correct them. Not change the way the engineering process work.
Personally, I'm just an average pilot. I'm not exceptional but can hold my own. But when my FSD gets disabled within 10 seconds while I still have full shields, something is wrong. When you're ganked on by 3 or 4 guys, you can't afford to lose your FSD. In the first place, those kind of engineered weapons (torpedoes and al) shouldn't have been so extreme. Frontier did err in that area. But if they make it easier to get those over-the-top upgrades, then it will level the field a bit. I do a little bit of everything in ED. So, I don't have the time and the desire to grind for countless hours to get the new "meta" of the moment. It's just a shame that m my normally engineered ship, I don't hold a candle against those "meta" PvPers...
If people here have listened to Braben describe his views on what a finished Elite Dangerous will look like (like I have), why don't you consider the system that the engineers use now as a placeholder, many games do this in development(play almost any beta/early access game and you'll know) because they want to release the content, but the means of acquiring it is not finalized, and when you listen to the stuff that Braben wants to see in game, like player controlled avatars, atmospheric planets with unique wildlife and trophy hunting, among many many more features, I consider the current system of engineers as holding people back from what Elite will be in its late stages. Some people don't care about how much of a grind it is to get good engineered equipment, but those that do care, when asked by people who want to get the game (which I'm sure the devs want as customers), will likely bring up the issue of the grind/RNG of this content as a negative, which if the goal is to get people to play elite, seems counter productive.
Possible suggestions as far as material rewards.(Obviously there might be reasons why adding these type of things would be difficult or impossible to add.)
Power Play participation could give you a reward based on your contribution with materials. The higher the contribution tier you manage to get during the week the more materials you would get. As well as harder to get materials. Seeing as how there are already 5 tiers of each 'rarity' and power play tiers it seems like an obvious choice to link them together.
Exploration data turn ins. Seeing as how explorer types are very limited on what they can acquire out in the black, giving them materials for each page they sell or how much data they sell to a particular faction could reward them with the 'man made' materials to help them shorten their "loop" because they are going to be spending less time in one of the bubbles to acquire those despite spending as much or more time playing the game. Or you could go another route and reward some of the materials used for increased jumps and repairs as well as other exploration related materials as a different approach.
Power Play participation could give you a reward based on your contribution with materials. The higher the contribution tier you manage to get during the week the more materials you would get. As well as harder to get materials. Seeing as how there are already 5 tiers of each 'rarity' and power play tiers it seems like an obvious choice to link them together.
Exploration data turn ins. Seeing as how explorer types are very limited on what they can acquire out in the black, giving them materials for each page they sell or how much data they sell to a particular faction could reward them with the 'man made' materials to help them shorten their "loop" because they are going to be spending less time in one of the bubbles to acquire those despite spending as much or more time playing the game. Or you could go another route and reward some of the materials used for increased jumps and repairs as well as other exploration related materials as a different approach.
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I think we just desperately need details on the materials broker. That and for them to either remove incremental rolls entirely, or have a different tiered system - i.e. instead of having 5 grades, still have 5 engineer ranks, but instead have 10 (for example) upgrade levels with fixed stats.
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FD,
Another thought or two on Engineer changes:
Much of the discussion seems to be around level playing fields for PvP, but I was wondering about the grandfathering of modules, and how the new system will give better results.
Much of my current build relies on good secondaries to allow me to even be able to fit other, light modules I. E. 4D drives on an Anaconda. If the new system will be better, how will it ensure that New Builds will be able to duplicate this effect?
Also, why is it necessary to make the new system produce better results? I can understand that the new system needs to ensure that new builds can PvP with the old, but my exploraconda has never hurt anyone. I have been very proud to have gotten her to the top of a forum jump range list, with a max range of 72.63lys. This took an awful lot of work. There may be better out there, but my little claim to fame looks like it is about to go up in flames. Most of my time achieving this was sitting about waiting for RNG, so saying that at least I had fun doing it really doesn't help, and the "fun" was sporadic and fleeting.
I really do worry that some us longer term players who achieved some special outcomes are being hit by the nerf hammer for doing nothing wrong. I want to see this game continue to succeed, but it sounds like tens, or even hundreds of game hours will have been wasted if grandfathered modules end up 2nd rate.
I guess I am a little bais as I would only really be happy for my record to fall to someone using the current system, not a new, easier version. I can admit this much, but I hope you can see how this is so very disappointing.
Deadstar Omega o7
Another thought or two on Engineer changes:
Much of the discussion seems to be around level playing fields for PvP, but I was wondering about the grandfathering of modules, and how the new system will give better results.
Much of my current build relies on good secondaries to allow me to even be able to fit other, light modules I. E. 4D drives on an Anaconda. If the new system will be better, how will it ensure that New Builds will be able to duplicate this effect?
Also, why is it necessary to make the new system produce better results? I can understand that the new system needs to ensure that new builds can PvP with the old, but my exploraconda has never hurt anyone. I have been very proud to have gotten her to the top of a forum jump range list, with a max range of 72.63lys. This took an awful lot of work. There may be better out there, but my little claim to fame looks like it is about to go up in flames. Most of my time achieving this was sitting about waiting for RNG, so saying that at least I had fun doing it really doesn't help, and the "fun" was sporadic and fleeting.
I really do worry that some us longer term players who achieved some special outcomes are being hit by the nerf hammer for doing nothing wrong. I want to see this game continue to succeed, but it sounds like tens, or even hundreds of game hours will have been wasted if grandfathered modules end up 2nd rate.
I guess I am a little bais as I would only really be happy for my record to fall to someone using the current system, not a new, easier version. I can admit this much, but I hope you can see how this is so very disappointing.
Deadstar Omega o7
If other people having a slightly better experience and becoming able to do the same things as you is equivalent to a "nerf" then you are the problem with this game. Thats not a nerf. Nothing you have is being taken away or reduced. Others having something similar or better does not diminish what you have.
new players don't want an onerous grind.
If I'd know how tedious and annoying engineering is, I never would have bought horizons. As it is I tell people not to get this game because of the fetch quests and dumb things required to have a ship able to keep up with the rest of the galaxy.
"Play how you want" was thrown out the window by engineers.
That said, I like pretty much all of the improvements. Exception being:
G5 mods can only be reached by subsequently improving lower grade mods - this is completely stupid.
I understand you want the lower grade mods to be used. Make them varying the way letter class of modules is done. B is the most durable, D the lightest, A the best at 1 thing but most powerhungry, whatever. But having to do multiple G1s to get G2, then multiple of those to G3, etc for EVERY SINGLE MODULE. We don't have to buy modules that way, why made modifications work that way? completely bass-ackward. But the rest of the changes are right on the money. Kudos.
If people who like PvP had gained an advantage simply by using the old system the correct way, and that advantage is then taken away because the new system will produce better results, it will feel rather nerf-like to them I am sure.
I am not sure that saying "I am the problem with this game" is very accurate. I have been a long term supporter of this game,and if my record is to be overtaken in the interest of the greater good then I accept that, but I do not have to like it.
Please keep posts here directed at FD, thanks o7
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Surely it's better for players who like PvP, if we have more people to PvP against.. The system needs to be more more inclusive and encourage more people to try it.
FDev, you need to focus a little on balance, across the board. You are not selling fast unlocks, so there is no need for the insane time sink required to be competitive.
PvP in a game like Dark Souls isn't so popular because some people have items that few others can access without investing an exorbitant amount of time and a being lucky, it's popular because it's so heavily skill based and so well balanced.
Let the discrepancy between PvP players be based on time sunk into actual combat.
Encourage more players into Engineering, PvP and Open, by slashing requirements to unlock engineers and improving the drop rates of rare/very rare mats.
Don't make it a deeper time sink of busy work. Which is what it sounds like when you suggest this progressive unlock system.
This game has no matchmaking where you are matched up within a range of upgrades/skill level, so you cant' have the discrepancy between players/ships be so heavily connected to time sink/longevity/tenure/grind.
It discourages people from playing in open, attempting PvP, or experiencing the array of interesting builds the Engineers can allow you access to.
I love the game, and you seem like people who care so thanks for all the hard work.
o7.
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Speaking of 'modifications act like modules'
It would be really great if we could move modifications from one modules to another. Right now its very bad to engineer anything that isn't A-grade endgame equipment.
Don't even bother with a C-class PP, cuz you're going to be trading it up to an A-grade once you get the CR for it. and suppose I engineer a really good Effecient Beam Laser with Thermal Vent, but its on a Gimballed mount and I want to give a gunner something to do in multicrew. well now I'd have to go buy a bunch of turreted weapons and engineer them all, hoping they'll be as good as my gimbals.
Make it cost CR like ship transfer, based on grade of modification and size/class of source and destination module.
Then starting out players have a reason to try engineering, because right now its pointless to engineer anything with a mid-range ship when none of that equipment is going to be usable later. At least with ship when you trade up your modules are worth something in trade-in, but all the modifications count for nothing but the time spent.
Modification CR value would also help with crime and punishment, since a heavily modified griefer ship is going to have a higher rebuy, but thats tangent to this thread.
It would be really great if we could move modifications from one modules to another. Right now its very bad to engineer anything that isn't A-grade endgame equipment.
Don't even bother with a C-class PP, cuz you're going to be trading it up to an A-grade once you get the CR for it. and suppose I engineer a really good Effecient Beam Laser with Thermal Vent, but its on a Gimballed mount and I want to give a gunner something to do in multicrew. well now I'd have to go buy a bunch of turreted weapons and engineer them all, hoping they'll be as good as my gimbals.
Make it cost CR like ship transfer, based on grade of modification and size/class of source and destination module.
Then starting out players have a reason to try engineering, because right now its pointless to engineer anything with a mid-range ship when none of that equipment is going to be usable later. At least with ship when you trade up your modules are worth something in trade-in, but all the modifications count for nothing but the time spent.
Modification CR value would also help with crime and punishment, since a heavily modified griefer ship is going to have a higher rebuy, but thats tangent to this thread.