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Can't have a meaningful discussion without that being addressed.
Logging During Combat Punishment [Proposal]
- Thread starter MONTItheRed
- Start date
Can't have a meaningful discussion without that being addressed.
Sort out griefing and a proper Crime and Punishment system in game, then come back to me with this as if you play in open you should expect pirates and blockades as well as the consequences of them with appropriate punishment for logging.
But until those who take pleasure in just ruining somebody else's day are dealt with and a proper C&P system exists that doesn't allow hundreds of crimes to just be wiped for little cost to the player, I can see no justification in setting punishments for the victims.
This is not a space combat game after all, if you want that go to CQC. This is a space game which can involve space combat as part of it and that means it needs balance rather than just enabling the game for PVP and those who wish to ruin somebody else's day.
But until those who take pleasure in just ruining somebody else's day are dealt with and a proper C&P system exists that doesn't allow hundreds of crimes to just be wiped for little cost to the player, I can see no justification in setting punishments for the victims.
This is not a space combat game after all, if you want that go to CQC. This is a space game which can involve space combat as part of it and that means it needs balance rather than just enabling the game for PVP and those who wish to ruin somebody else's day.
Unwanted PvP? No such thing, not in open. When you press open you accept open, if you press it and only accept the parts of open you like then you should be thrown out.
It is indeed relative! [yesnod]
If you look at most definition of combat logging for this forum include game menu and switching mode as combat logging.. As for what's also illegal.. Public shaming of OOC actions on a In Character medium, such as GalNet is a breach of what GalNet is for especially when GalNet is logged and references months or even a year after it first was shown. I would class that as illegal humiliation.
Also.. using the game menu over crashing the game is 5-15 seconds faster, which is what I was referencing.
There you go
Combat logging is not an intended part of the game.
This attitude pretty much guarantees that combat logging will always be a thing. It's the only surefire way to annoy people like you.
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Are you even sane? You must be willfully missing "the evidence".
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When you press Open you accept this can happen to you. If someone combat logs, they cheat. Sorry the truth hurts
How does "that attitude" guarantee anything?
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Again, the OP post is another that only addresses part of the problem and fails totally to look at the bigger picture.
This would be worth reading and discussing if the same about of effort had been put into the full cause and effect and a balanced approach taken against the OP just discussion the part the most upsets them.
This would be worth reading and discussing if the same about of effort had been put into the full cause and effect and a balanced approach taken against the OP just discussion the part the most upsets them.
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When I press open I normally meet 100 nice commanders cooperating on the same target, for example exploring the Alien ruin site. And 1 idiot who is berserking around the alien site and shooting down commanders. For the lulz, and not for "Open play".
They want to cause havoc. And that´s why I can only ask everyone to play in Private Groups until this stupid idiotic gameplay mechanic is fixed. End of discussion.
I want crime and punishment as much as the next guy but when I press open I know what I am getting, whether I am pirating or not I know there is a crime and punishment system I dislike and I deal with it, whether it be a guy ramming me outside of Founders, getting followed by a Cutter or the piracy mechanics.
But sure, if you wanna combat log on me just to annoy me, go right ahead but who's the being the
then? And you know, that attitude is also a way to guarantee that griefing and ganking will also always be a thing.I'll stop you right there because you can't really talk about "punishment" for an activity that can't be reliably detected or enforced. It just makes no sense. FD clearly chose to utilize a P2P architecture for the game which has several inherent limitations. Combat logging being undetectable and unenforceable is one of those issues and FD can't suddenly "fix" that without completely redesigning the game's achetecture, which they obviously won't be doing.
That's not at all what I was referring to. I'm talking about core game mechanics being objectively broken. It's not a subjective "justification" where it's just someone's opinion, I'm referring to losing an interdiction minigame because the game insta-failed you when you submitted or doesn't allow you to escape when pointing directly towards the escape vector. If these core game mechanics don't work then telling players not to combat log makes zero sense because the game is quite simply not working. You can't tell someone to play by the "rules" of the game when the game does not follow these rules properly itself.
They have no reliable way to determine this, all they can tell is if the game was exited "gracefully" by a menu log-out or "ungracefully" by terminating the client process. The issue is that we have many "ungraceful" exits from the game for reasons that are completely outside of our control as players. It is simply not possible for FD to distinguish between the game crashing to desktop, the game freezing and requiring a termination of the client process and a player intentionally terminating the client process in some manner. Given that I still routinely have the game crash on me and have had to terminate the client process several times because of this there is no way FD is going to be able to identify players who are "intentionally" shutting down the game. They have to be close to 100% certain that a player is cheating if they are going to "punish" them for it and at this point they are simply incapable of determining this with any degree of reliability.
It's only an "exploit" because FD has decided to call it one. It is not a "game mechanic" that players are abusing and it is only possible at all because FD has gone with an inexpensive P2P architecture instead of running the game off of a central server. For them to call it an "exploit" simply deflects attention from the poor design choices they made when creating the game. If you design something with an inherent flaw, and then complain that players can use that flaw, that's the fault of the game developers.
It's also noteworthy that they don't consider mode-switching an "exploit" when it clearly circumvents an in-game limitation on mission board spawn rates. Why is one an "exploit" and the other not an exploit? FD is defining something based on completely random decisions and like I said the only reason here is that they want to deflect attention away from game limitations that they can't fix.
You know why? Because the vast majority of PVP players don't want "challenging" PVP. They want seal clubbing, and that is what we have with the vast majority of interdictions. Combat logging is a definitive answer to seal clubbing and has no way to be reliably identified or enforced, so the seal-clubbing PVP "community" (if you could really call it that) is becoming very vocal about something that is only an issue for their very imbalanced playstyle.
You don't see this issue with consensual PVP duels because those PVP players WANT a challenge and the fights are balanced. The issue is that players need to find each other to do this and FD has almost no in-game features to facilitate player interactions beyond the very limited and buggy wing mechanic.
Again, this comes down to FD having a very limited, buggy and broken game system which naturally leads to PVE players combat logging when faced with all of these issues. FD has no ability or intent to fix these underlying issues and that is why we currently have so much combat logging.
I don't combat log myself, because I have a fleet of fully Engineered ships that can either fight or get away from almost any interdiction situation, and the few ones I can't get away from (i.e., interdicted by multiple Clippers who can outrun and mass-lock a smaller ship) I can just use the 15-second logout method which FD "supports". That isn't the case with many PVE players however and I don't blame them in the slightest for combat logging behavior.
Said it many times before. Fairly simple solution. Lock them out of open for some time with a cooldown. Each time it happens, the lockout and cooldown both get longer. After X number of times, the lockout becomes permanent, and from that point forward they are restricted to Group or Solo.
There could be an additional mechnaic whereby someone who wants to reform their CLing ways can get back into Open. Not sure how that could work though. Maybe sacrifice 50% of their assets or something to the dark lords of combat logging.
There could be an additional mechnaic whereby someone who wants to reform their CLing ways can get back into Open. Not sure how that could work though. Maybe sacrifice 50% of their assets or something to the dark lords of combat logging.
And they will happily combat log there as well I suspect, this discussion is narrowly focused on combat loggers against players though combat logging in any mode is a 'cheat'. Would love to see the numbers FD have on 'detected' longing and in what mode.
To me this seems all this discussions since the investigation post has centred around PVP and combat logging, the problem is larger than that.
The current P2P networking makes it difficult to be 100% certain what caused the drop, though circumstantial evidence (happens only if player under threat) will be pretty damning, though could be argued this is also the time of highest network traffic and the most likely time for a failure.
Full server/client maybe a solution, this will come at a cost maybe even a monthly one to support this....careful what you wish for comes to mind
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OP . . . . This ^^^
Try and think outside the combat logging box.
P.S. I have never, and never will, combat log. I have never seal clubbed, nor would I. I have engaged in PVP (by seeking challenge) and have never had anyone combat log on me. So to be honest, it is quite obvious (to me, IMHO) that combat logging is not the problem.
Which is a very good method?
What do you mean by Seculam and Seculorum?
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The proposal assumes that the combat logger has been found guilty by whatever means the devs use. I am not privy to that method of determining guilt.
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That meaningful discussion is active in other threads and forums. As I said in the opening post, this is a discussion about the punishment system, not the guilt system. I don't know how the devs determine guilt.
Hmm.. Looking at this and the OP again, confirmed cases on FDev's part are motions to simply Ban the offenders similar to how they treat confirmed griefers. So if I may.. what is your intent with this topic? Are you assuming FDev does not have a 'Punishment' for this offense that they have confirmed (labeled someone as a Combat Logger)?
Unfortunately, with in the construct of open, there is no 100% effective way to avoid PVP; I think this is why the devs created solo and private groups. Creation of an Open PVE mode might solve this, but it could require some changes to the game mechanics.
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There is no explicit or implicit agreement to PVP in open, or private mode for that matter.