Logging During Combat Punishment [Proposal]

[Gunnet]

Wrong.

There have been plenty of proposals which would minimize the chances of "innocent casualties". Strike systems. Only counting towards a ban when in PvP combat with a player (which is rare, if you disconnect in combat with that player is even rarer and if you disconnect when under X amount of hull is even rarer than that).

Strike systems will cause false positives against pirates (and "pirates") when X number of different people cut the P2P with them when attacked.

Context sensitive systems will be exploitable when people realise that they can deliberately place themselves in a losing situation with another player and then cut the P2P to cause a strike against them.

If you ignore incidents where only the P2P connection fails, combat logging continues unabated as soon as people are incentivised to learn how to do it that way rather than just killing the process.

 

[RhymeRhyme]

I'm drafting a punishment system

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZ !!! ... and you can stop after the word punishement !

Punishing players is the wrong way here. It's a complex problem but by punishing people, you're going to make it even worse. You add more frustration to the players on top of the grind frustration.
Totally wrong approach.

 

[Imo]

Beside the fact that a reported "combat log" is not necessary what the reporter THINKS had happened, the very first question shoud be: IF the other guy had pulled his plug to avoid his ships loss, WHY did he do so?

When you count the number of threads about this happening you get the feeling it happens all the time. So the next question should be: WHY do cmdrs do that again and again and again? There must be a reason for.

This is not the question why they don't use alternatives: playing in solo or mobius. Or why they play in open at all when they know about all that risk. That's not the point.

The answer is NOT "they do it because it is still possible and not being punished." Argue this way does not light up the secret WHY players do it again and again.

Investigate WHY so many (?) players pull their plugs to avoid their ships loss. We won't make any step forward in this topic before we know about this "secret".

I am sure when we get aware of the reasons why this happens we should be able to find a solution to get rid of this happenings without angriness and punishment.

 

[Comrade Error]

Strike systems will cause false positives against pirates (and "pirates") when X number of different people cut the P2P with them when attacked.

Context sensitive systems will be exploitable when people realise that they can deliberately place themselves in a losing situation with another player and then cut the P2P to cause a strike against them.

If you ignore incidents where only the P2P connection fails, combat logging continues unabated as soon as people are incentivised to learn how to do it that way rather than just killing the process.

I don't see how the context sensetive system would be exploitable in that way? If I place myself in a losing situation then log I will get the strike, not my opponent(s). I get the strike system but that's why you would combine the two. You could also factor in stats like "How often does this player disconnect?" "What is the rebuy costs paid to play time ratio? Is it a lot lower than average? We might have a logger here then." Hell maybe only punish people who have been reported with video and if they haven't just send them a scary email. And all of these systems and how they work wouldn't be disclosed to the public, I bet it would take a while for people to figure out how it works.

- - - Updated - - -

Beside the fact that a reported "combat log" is not necessary what the reporter THINKS had happened, the very first question shoud be: IF the other guy had pulled his plug to avoid his ships loss, WHY did he do so?

When you count the number of threads about this happening you get the feeling it happens all the time. So the next question should be: WHY do cmdrs do that again and again and again? There must be a reason for.

This is not the question why they don't use alternatives: playing in solo or mobius. Or why they play in open at all when they know about all that risk. That's not the point.

]B]The answer is NOT "they do it because it is still possible and not being punished." Argue this way does not light up the secret WHY players do it again and again.[/B]

Investigate WHY so many (?) players pull their plugs to avoid their ships loss. We won't make any step forward in this topic before we know about this "secret".

I am sure when we get aware of the reasons why this happens we should be able to find a solution to get rid of this happenings without angriness and punishment.

How do you know? And in any case why should we care? There are plenty of people who have logged on me while pirating them. If the reason as to why they log is "Because I don't want to lose my credits to a dirty pirate" I don't think we should base a solution around that.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Then you must dislike: Overwatch, CoD, CS, GTA and many many others.

Fact is, you are probably playing games that do punish you for leaving early, this is far from a new concept.

Aren't all those zero loss games though? Hell, in GTA even you lose you still get a RP bonus and i think often a cash bonus as well, so there is even an incentive there to continue to the end even if you are losing.

I've never felt the urge to log in GTA5 simply because i knew that seeing it through to the end will get me a bonus anyway.

 

[Comrade Error]

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZ !!! ... and you can stop after the word punishement !

Punishing players is the wrong way here. It's a complex problem but by punishing people, you're going to make it even worse. You add more frustration to the players on top of the grind frustration.
Totally wrong approach.

Sweet, does this count for pirates and gankers as well? We don't need a crime and punishment, that would only frustrate us AND add to the enormous grind PvP pirates already have.

- - - Updated - - -

Aren't all those zero loss games though? Hell, in GTA even you lose you still get a RP bonus and i think often a cash bonus as well, so there is even an incentive there to continue to the end even if you are losing.

I've never felt the urge to log in GTA5 simply because i knew that seeing it through to the end will get me a bonus anyway.

Well, I've been told by many o care bears that they would still log even if there is incentive not to (as in you don't have to pay rebuy or whatever) simply because they don't want to play with and I quote "Psychopaths" or to annoy said "psychopaths".

But in the end that's not what the guy I was responding to was saying. He just said he dislikes games that punish you for quitting early.

 

[Starstrydur]

OP I find your lack of tolerance and acceptance disturbing. What you are proposing is absurd. You could never know the reason for a disconnection, period. /thread

 

[Comrade Error]

OP I find your lack of tolerance and acceptance disturbing. What you are proposing is absurd. You could never know the reason for a disconnection, period. /thread

You can never 100% know if X thing happened therefor you should never respond.

Are you 100% sure you exist? Are you 100% sure you aren't insane?

 

[Gunnet]

I don't see how the context sensetive system would be exploitable in that way? If I place myself in a losing situation then log I will get the strike, not my opponent(s). I get the strike system but that's why you would combine the two. You could also factor in stats like "How often does this player disconnect?" "What is the rebuy costs paid to play time ratio? Is it a lot lower than average? We might have a logger here then." Hell maybe only punish people who have been reported with video and if they haven't just send them a scary email. And all of these systems and how they work wouldn't be disclosed to the public, I bet it would take a while for people to figure out how it works.

You're thinking in terms of client-server, this is P2P. Imagine you're Frontier's transaction server. Two clients are fighting each other via a direct connection between themselves, but keeping you updated on what's happening. Suddenly both clients report that they have lost connection to the other. What do you do?

If the server assigns culpability for the disconnect to whichever player appeared to be losing the fight, all I have to do is fly badly and cut our link before you kill me in order to make you into the combat logger.

Death stats are inherently inaccurate in a game that doesn't focus entirely on PvP. A player who spends all their time exploring could have few to no deaths after years. While a player heavily into "fair fight" PvP probably racks them up by the day. And I can't even begin to imagine the rage when people who had "git gud" to the point where they PvP all the time and rarely die started to get flagged.

Video reports can easily be faked thanks, yet again, to P2P. Get in fight, start to win, disconnect the other guy; bam, fake video report.

Frivolous threats to discontinue service for TOS violations without evidence would bog down support something fierce. Some customers (such as myself) simply would not cease communicating with Support after being wrongly accused and threatened until a satisfactory resolution was reached. In some countries it may even be toeing the line with consumer regulations and contract law to threaten to invoke termination clauses in a EULA without good cause. Not to mention being generally bad for PR.

Just to be clear; I'm not actually defending combat logging here. Like I say every time I write a variation of this post, I'm trying to point out that if you want to stop combat logging, you have to stop people wanting to combat log.

 

[Comrade Error]

You're thinking in terms of client-server, this is P2P. Imagine you're Frontier's transaction server. Two clients are fighting each other via a direct connection between themselves, but keeping you updated on what's happening. Suddenly both clients report that they have lost connection to the other. What do you do?

If the server assigns culpability for the disconnect to whichever player appeared to be losing the fight, all I have to do is fly badly and cut our link before you kill me in order to make you into the combat logger.

Death stats are inherently inaccurate in a game that doesn't focus entirely on PvP. A player who spends all their time exploring could have few to no deaths after years. While a player heavily into "fair fight" PvP probably racks them up by the day. And I can't even begin to imagine the rage when people who had "git gud" to the point where they PvP all the time and rarely die started to get flagged.

Video reports can easily be faked thanks, yet again, to P2P. Get in fight, start to win, disconnect the other guy; bam, fake video report.

Frivolous threats to discontinue service for TOS violations without evidence would bog down support something fierce. Some customers (such as myself) simply would not cease communicating with Support after being wrongly accused and threatened until a satisfactory resolution was reached. In some countries it may even be toeing the line with consumer regulations and contract law to threaten to invoke termination clauses in a EULA without good cause. Not to mention being generally bad for PR.

Just to be clear; I'm not actually defending combat logging here. Like I say every time I write a variation of this post, I'm trying to point out that if you want to stop combat logging, you have to stop people wanting to combat log.

Still not getting it, you fly badly start losing and you disconnect and I get flagged, why?

Then you take into account other stats like exploration. It would get complicated but that's their job, dealing with complicated.

Fair enough, I forgot PCs don't come with recording software that stores the past 5 minutes of video either.

But they would have evidence. Again stats, you disconnected this often while losing in combat with another player. I might be missing something but can't support just stop communicating with you? Besides I'm pretty sure they are trained for that anyway. The punishment doesn't have to be termination, there again are plenty of games who deal with rage quitting without bad PR nor clashes with the law.

 

[RhymeRhyme]

Sweet, does this count for pirates and gankers as well? We don't need a crime and punishment, that would only frustrate us AND add to the enormous grind PvP pirates already have.

What would you achieve by punishment. Even more people would switch to Solo and Private groups before they risk loosing huge amounts of credits. If you have 100 mio. credits in your account and risk to loose 18 or 25 by getting shot down by overpowered Engineered ships that ripp you in pieces within 60 seconds (even a Corvette), then you just shut down. The problem lies in the mega GRIND this game "offers" as the only way of gettings your ship insurance. That's where the real problem lies. If I have to grind half a week for my insurance and have to go through a very boring repetition loop, then I'd rather log off than going through a couple of days of frustrating tasks. That is the real problem.

So, a possible solution would be to make the loss of the ship less painfull. This of course comes with a downside but adds a lot of benefits. More people in OPEN, more PvP action, way! less logging, more fun as PvP can be super fun and enrich the game a lot etc. etc.

 

[Monoceros]

Are you saying in your view the combat logging exploit is acceptable if not against players ? This exploit can be equally well used in solo/PG to further progression, is this not cheating as well?

A more holistic approach is what is needed in my view.

 

[Roland2]

The issue of combat logging seems to be as big an issue as ever, if not bigger.

Lave Radio Episode 134 - Round and Round the Station the Combat Logger Ran
29 Nov 2016, Lave Radio
http://laveradio.com/lave-radio-episode-134/

Elite Dangerous - PvP and Combat Logging Issue
25 Nov 2016, ObsidianAnt
https://youtu.be/cAhf1QDp9N4

Elite Dangerous - Big Payouts, Passengers and a little something about Combat Logging
23 Nov 2016, Obsidian Ant
https://youtu.be/yii97AQxhEQ

Elite Dangerous PVP Combat Logging
30 Nov 2016, Vindicator Jones
https://youtu.be/lqSmR4iCku4

Combat Logging Update
27 Jan 2015, Sandro Sammarco
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/105778-“Combat-Logging”-Update

Elite Wiki Combat Logging
http://elite-dangerous.wikia.com/wiki/Combat_Logging

Frontier assure they are fighting Elite combat logging after community proves failure to deal with exploit
23 November 2016, PCGamesN
http://www.pcgamesn.com/elite-dangerous/elite-dangerous-combat-logging

Frustrated Elite Dangerous players are trying to get Frontier to fix cheating
23 Nov 2016, EuroGamer
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...rs-are-trying-to-get-frontier-to-fix-cheating

Elite: Dangerous user criticises Frontier over combat logging
23 Nov 2016, GameReactor
http://www.gamereactor.eu/news/484023/Elite+Dangerous+user+criticises+Frontier+over+combat+logging/

Report: Elite Dangerous Developers Are Deliberately Ignoring Combat Logging
23 Nov 2016, Segment Next
http://segmentnext.com/2016/11/23/e...ers-are-deliberately-ignoring-combat-logging/

Elite: Dangerous players are pressing Frontier to address cheating complaints
23 Nov 2016, VG 247
https://www.vg247.com/2016/11/23/el...sing-frontier-to-address-cheating-complaints/

Elite Dangerous: Combat Logging Not The Main Problem?
25 Nov 2016, The Bit Bag
http://www.thebitbag.com/elite-dangerous-combat-logging-not-main-problem/205399

ELITE DANGEROUS PLAYERS ACCUSE FRONTIER OF IGNORING COMBAT EXPLOIT
23 Nov 2016, Massively Overpowered
http://massivelyop.com/2016/11/23/e...s-accuse-frontier-of-ignoring-combat-exploit/

The Elite Dangerous Community Are Not Impressed With Frontier Developments Lack Of Support
23 Nov 2016, The Game Watcher
http://www.gamewatcher.com/news/201...ed-with-frontier-developments-lack-of-support

Elite: Dangerous Devs Urged to Exploit Cheaters
24 Nov 2016, MMO Examiner
http://mmoexaminer.com/elite-dangerous-exploit-cheaters/


And those are just the English language articles.

Having lots of articles on a subject doesn't make it an issue. Just look at the Open/PG/Solo mega threads. Do some think it is an issue...yes. Some people think the sun coming up in the morning is an issue, that doesn't make it true (except for them and those who believe the same).

 

[Gunnet]

Still not getting it, you fly badly start losing and you disconnect and I get flagged, why?

Then you take into account other stats like exploration. It would get complicated but that's their job, dealing with complicated.

Fair enough, I forgot PCs don't come with recording software that stores the past 5 minutes of video either.

But they would have evidence. Again stats, you disconnected this often while losing in combat with another player. I might be missing something but can't support just stop communicating with you? Besides I'm pretty sure they are trained for that anyway. The punishment doesn't have to be termination, there again are plenty of games who deal with rage quitting without bad PR nor clashes with the law.

I wouldn't be disconnecting from the server or closing the game. I would be ending my network connection with you. All Frontier's server knows is that both of our clients simultaneously reported loss of connection to the other player. It's a "he said, she said" situation.

While typing the previous paragraph I realised that I got the hypothetical players mixed up. The player who is winning can cause the player who is loosing to be flagged by disconnecting them, not the other way around. Sorry about that. But it doesn't change the core problem of a context sensitive system being trivial to abuse.

What does recording software have to do with it? Not a rhetorical question or sarcasm, I'm just not seeing how it makes a difference.

They wouldn't have evidence. There are no server logs showing a player disconnecting like in other games which deal with rage quitting. There is no way to tell whether player A or player B cut the P2P connection. I don't know how to make it any clearer.

Stopping communicating with a customer after denying service (or part thereof) over an accusation of something they know they didn't do, and know you don't have supporting evidence for, is just asking for it to escalate. Countries like the UK have strong consumer protection regulations. You can't respond to a complaint with "well there's no way to know it was them and not another player, but we're just going to go ahead and invoke the relevant EULA clause as though they did regardless".

Even if they could get away with that, Frontier doesn't want to begin sanctioning innocent players and driving them away from the game.

 

[Harley Quinn]

This still going?

While I have never Combat Logged and never intend to as while I mainly play in open, I have solo and Mobius if I'm not in the mood or want to avoid griefers. I use them so there is no need, but I can understand why people do.

Hours of work grinding and millions of credits lost to some griefer attacking you in a mismatched fight who after doing this hundreds of time will get it all cleared from their record for a less than 2000 credit sidewinder rebuy. And why are they doing it? To take pleasure in ruining somebodies day.

Fair? Hardly. The only justification I ever here is the 'well you chose to play in open so accepted this' defence. Bit like me beating you up every time you walk down my street and telling the police that's fine as he chose to keep walking down my street and therefore getting away with it. That is ridiculous.

C&P needs fixing first and something open to demonstrate that griefers are being dealt with. Then we can address the issue of people combat logging.

For the record, I want to play in a game where in open I run the risk of being attacked. I want players as pirates trying to steal my cargo. I want players with goals blockading systems for a purpose and the need to run that blockade and disrupt them for my purpose. I want proper bounty hunting including wanted players being targeted. I want players warring with each other. All this should be part of the game and exist for in game purposes, and when occurring I do not want combat logging as it's cheating.

But what I don't want is a C&P system that provides no real in game punishment to criminal players therefore making it unbalanced to place 99% of the pain on the victims of legitimate in game crime or have a system that enables and protects griefers who need to make their sad little lives feel better by ruining somebody else's day and hard work for a laugh. That issue needs to be sorted first and until it is, I won't blame somebody else combat logging to avoid it but would suggest that they should move to solo or group in future if they don't want that risk, even though it does remove the aspect of the risk of PVP for legitimate in-game reasons which I think needs to be there for the full enjoyment of playing the game.

I'll wait for the trolling on people who claim they want to play in-game psycos as legitimate role play and keep wondering why they don't create their own group for people to experience that. Oh yes, I forgot, it's because the majority of people don't want to experience that so nobody would turn up to play their victims just to make them feel a little better about themselves.

 

[graeme.firth]

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDange...sk_and_answer_any_questions_you_have/dah31bf/

The quick start manual and players guide say that blocking reduces chances of instancing, but Michael Brookes says blocking only blocks communication.

Oh, then that's a shame, with enough people the idea could have been quite influential to game playing style.

***Update***

From Reddit : "Block player (this option prevents you receiving messages from the player and reduces the chance of meeting them during the game)."

Is it worth a try????

 

[Comrade Error]

What would you achieve by punishment. Even more people would switch to Solo and Private groups before they risk losing huge amounts of credits. If you have 100 mio. credits in your account and risk to loose 18 or 25 by getting shot down by overpowered Engineered ships that ripp you in pieces within 60 seconds (even a Corvette), then you just shut down. The problem lies in the mega GRIND this game "offers" as the only way of gettings your ship insurance. That's where the real problem lies. If I have to grind half a week for my insurance and have to go through a very boring repetition loop, then I'd rather log off than going through a couple of days of frustrating tasks. That is the real problem.

So, a possible solution would be to make the loss of the ship less painfull. This of course comes with a downside but adds a lot of benefits. More people in OPEN, more PvP action, way! less logging, more fun as PvP can be super fun and enrich the game a lot etc. etc.

That argument can be flipped to not have a punishment for crime. Even more pirates will become gankers or stop playing.

I do not mind how long it takes to get somewhere in this game (as in credits) that is part of the game and it was fun working my way up through the ships not just get to an Anaconda in a week or two by going into the main menu over and over again. In-fact if the PvP professions were balanced I doubt you would have a problem with dying as the rewards would balance it out. The only problem i see with the high rebuys when you A grade it is that it might take a little while to make the money back but you will make the money back with relative ease. But for that there can be added harder missions or enemies that prove a challenge if you are in a big ship but they'll pay the bills.

And I wonder how much effort did you put into that Corvette vs the guy with the engineered ship? Because it sounds like you're angry at the engineers because you can't just mode switch to get whatever you want, not because there is an actual imbalance.

But to be frank, how fast you make money is a secondary concern compared to the balance between who makes the most money. You get millions from hauling across the galaxy but you get next to nothing for robbing that or even robbing some valuable goods, or just attacking the seal clubbers in Eravate like AA does. Click the quote by David Braben in my sig because if you want my stance on the balancing of credits between professions'.

 

[Zarathos]

Then you must dislike: Overwatch, CoD, CS, GTA and many many others.

Fact is, you are probably playing games that do punish you for leaving early, this is far from a new concept.

But you can logout from this games anytime you want !! i totally understand your point but you have to consider the players who just started the game and they barely have some money, otherwise they will be upset and will leave the game, and then you will have no one to kill or even bump with.

 

[Comrade Error]

But you can logout from this games anytime you want !! i totally understand your point but you have to consider the players who just started the game and they barely have some money, otherwise they will be upset and will leave the game, and then you will have no one to kill or even bump with.

I do not want to be able to log out any time I want without consequence if it means that PvP is completely pointless. PvP bounty hunting, piracy, Powerplay, blockading. All completely pointless.

If you quit the game after one death then this game really isn't for you. If you refuse to learn things such as be careful near high traffic areas then this game probably isn't for you, or at least open isn't and I'm fine with that.

 

[V'larr]

How can you not agree that others have said playing in solo or private would not be a punishment?

I'm not "others", though!

Then other methods of punishment could be applied.

The whole focus on punishment is missing the crux of the issue, I think.

I agree that the in game comms, instancing, wings, and NPCs need to be reworked. However, this seems like a tenuous justification for exploiting.

It's not always intentional, it's not always done with exploitation in mind, and let's remember Win10's default update behavior....

Fdev enforcing the TOS as necessary where there's no reasonable doubt is fine, but going any further does no good.

Players wouldn't be paying for their TARGET'S rebuy; the players that break the rules pay a rebuy, and the same amount is awarded to players they violated rules against.

Hm. I'm fine with it up until the "awarded to players" bit. Nobody should get free money because someone else disconnected. So I'm still against restitution.

And I think having to pay a rebuy should only be justifiable if an NPC that took over control of your ship (or a copy of it that exists in the game still being played by the other guy, as it were) after you disconnected, got your ship blown up. I'm not certain that would be easy & simple to track, though, and there's also the issue of how to display a rebuy screen if they've already reconnected and are currently playing the game elsewhere...perhaps you could 'save' it for the next time they log out & back in to the game...? Anyway, it's an additional complication where it's ideal to keep server communication as simple and streamlined as possible.