Logging During Combat Punishment [Proposal]

[Imo]

"new players don't know what to do and believe me some of them took a month to earn 500k"

I spend a lot of time with new players in small vessels and this is my experience too. It must really put them off to loose that much time of their real life within a few seconds by a sportsmanlike fair playing pirate.

 

[Comrade Error]

"new players don't know what to do and believe me some of them took a month to earn 500k"

I spend a lot of time with new players in small vessels and this is my experience too. It must really put them off to loose that much time of their real life within a few seconds by a sportsmanlike fair playing pirate.

So it's ok to pirate on even legit pirates? Good to know.

You know, NPCs also go for cargo and if you don't give it they blow you up. Why don't you whine about fair sportsmanship to them? Hell, some NPCs are programmed to attack on sight without a good reason I believe.

I think it was in 2.1 they added an NPC type that's called ''Terrorist''.

 

[Maelkhor]

So it's ok to pirate on even legit pirates? Good to know.

You know, NPCs also go for cargo and if you don't give it they blow you up. Why don't you whine about fair sportsmanship to them? Hell, some NPCs are programmed to attack on sight without a good reason I believe.

I think it was in 2.1 they added an NPC type that's called ''Terrorist''.

From the context, it sounded like sarcasm to me. Well putting 'sportsmanlike' and 'fair' in the same sentence as 'pirate' is sarcastic by itself, or cynical at best depending of the reader's POV.
But it is fun to know that FD qualify npcs attacking for no good reason "terrorist", if as you imply pc and npc's actions are equivalent...

 

[scorpyon]

Nope nope nope... and nope! Teeeeeerrible idea!

Until FD can sort out the problems with Insurance costs, bounties, network stability, NPC strength mismatches (and a host of other problems), then there should remain no "punishment" needed for combat logging.
There are much better ways to handle it without being unfair to players who might be having anywhere within a raft of hardware issues or external influence.

Better to implement a decent punishment system for the griefers and pirates before penalising players who just want to play the game without interruption.

 

[Demascus]

I thought this had been settled, the P2P architecture doesn't allow to FD to differentiate between CTD, drop in internet connection service, someone who pulls the plug or a task killer. Thus making all these "proposal" threads cropping up rather insane.

 

[NeilF]

Wow! If only so much effort was spent on improving the gameplay mechanics, rather than needlessly trying to fence people in with its toxic counter productive elements.

If combat logging is addressed before other far more important areas, its will damage the game IMHO.


The solution IMHO:-
1) Heavily penalise all illegal Pilots Federation destruction.
2) Offer meaningful interesting PvP mechanics in the game for those interested. Surely flying around randomly interdicting unwilling CMDRs simply to destroy them is as vapid and pointless as it sounds? Surely in 2016 the game can be offering orchestrated interesting PvP gameplay/mechanics for those interested?
3) Improve piracy. It should be a career with depth and immersion. It shouldn't be an excuse to destroy other CMDRs without basically no penalty.
4) Finally... Only after all the above have been done... Look to see if repeat combat logging can be logically tracked, warned against and penalised.


TBH, I see anyone endorsing penalising combat logging with the game in its current state as in one of two camps:-
1) A frustrated ganker who gets a kick out of the grief they cause interdicting and destroying other CMDRs unwilling or unable to fight back. I can only imagine the joy they they get from the increased grief if players could be penalised from logging from their pointless antics.
2) A frustrated pirate. Yes it is annoying when a victim logs. But I suspect its fair to say, the mindless gankers are somewhat to blame for this outcome. But we need to ask, is piracy about the right to needlessly destroy other CMDRs? Could the profession not be made more interesting over all?

 

[Rustled Jimmy]

I do not want to be able to log out any time I want without consequence if it means that PvP is completely pointless. PvP bounty hunting, piracy, Powerplay, blockading. All completely pointless.

If you quit the game after one death then this game really isn't for you. If you refuse to learn things such as be careful near high traffic areas then this game probably isn't for you, or at least open isn't and I'm fine with that.

See that's the ideology that will not get me to take anything you say on the subject seriously. What ego you must have to think you can tell people what games they should and shouldn't play.wow

Instead of faulting players, you should be asking why FD didn't have a PvP and PvE server separation, like every other MMORPG. People should not have to choose between isolation or bullying.

Either way, telling people " this isn't the game for you" is just a cop out. It offers no solution, and is a simple " my way or the highway" logic, which is a big part of why people are logging on you.

You say you're not a greifer, but your attitude says otherwise.

 

[NeilF]

See that's the ideology that will not get me to take anything you say on the subject seriously. What ego you must have to think you can tell people what games they should and shouldn't play.wow

Instead of faulting players, you should be asking why FD didn't have a PvP and PvE server separation, like every other MMORPG. People should not have to choose between isolation or bullying.

Either way, telling people " this isn't the game for you" is just a cop out. It offers no solution, and is a simple " my way or the highway" logic, which is a big part of why people are logging on you.

You say you're not a greifer, but your attitude says otherwise.

There doesn't need to be PvP or PvE... They need not be walled off.

If the illegal destruction of a Pilots Federation member was seriously penalised, such that doing it a couple of times was truly "painful", we'd get rid of most of this pointless/needless ganking.

Next, and most importantly, we actually need some improvements in the mechanics/gameplay in the game. It needs to offer more involved scenarios which in turn would not only offer engaging (legal) PvP to those interested in it, but more interesting PvE too (ie: the same mechanics just with more NPCs).

We could then talk about improving piracy, and ultimately after all that looking at penalising combat logging if possible. But while the depth of PvP in ED basically boils down to CMDRs looking for PvP having little/no option but to interdict other CMDRs at random, who most likely are not interested in PvP at that time, yet alone capable of PvP, is it surprising we're in such a mess?


The end game would be a far more predictable OPEN where illegal Pilots Federation Destruction is something that's accountable rather than being ignored, and where the game orchestrates PvP scenarios/tasks so anyone interested in it can find it easily! PvE and PvP all existing in OPEN fairly happily... Certainly more so than now!

 

[scorpyon]

I don't think that PvP and PvE need to be segregated at a SERVER level by any means.
But I do think that they need to be separated within the game itself.

One of the reasons that we struggle to form meaningful "community" areas is that there is always that underlying fear that it will descend into combat madness, so people shy away from "civilisation" which I personally think is detrimental to the game and community.

PvP should be kept (or at least limited to) intentionally dangerous areas, as opposed to anywhere and everywhere.
That way, communities could build up in much more relatively peaceful areas and this would also encourage newer players to head towards areas that they can learn how to "Git Gud" before heading out into the black.

 

[Rustled Jimmy]

There doesn't need to be PvP or PvE... They need not be walled off.

If the illegal destruction of a Pilots Federation member was seriously penalised, such that doing it a couple of times was truly "painful", we'd get rid of most of this pointless/needless ganking.

Next, and most importantly, we actually need some improvements in the mechanics/gameplay in the game. It needs to offer more involved scenarios which in turn would not only offer engaging (legal) PvP to those interested in it, but more interesting PvE too (ie: the same mechanics just with more NPCs).

We could then talk about improving piracy, and ultimately after all that looking at penalising combat logging if possible. But while the depth of PvP in ED basically boils down to CMDRs looking for PvP having little/no option but to interdict other CMDRs at random, who most likely are not interested in PvP at that time, yet alone capable of PvP, is it surprising we're in such a mess?


The end game would be a far more predictable OPEN where illegal Pilots Federation Destruction is something that's accountable rather than being ignored, and where the game orchestrates PvP scenarios/tasks so anyone interested in it can find it easily! PvE and PvP all existing in OPEN fairly happily... Certainly more so than now!

Yeah, but some players would rather not have PvP at all, but still want co-op. Thus my suggestion. It's worked in every other mmo, why not have it in ED?

 

[NeilF]

Yeah, but some players would rather not have PvP at all, but still want co-op. Thus my suggestion. It's worked in every other mmo, why not have it in ED?

Well, the only PvP you'd probably be exposed to with my suggestion is:-
a) If you decided to undertake a PvP associated task/mission (which means it's legal). Don't want to fight another CMDR, maybe only do it in co-op? Then a click would decide that.
b) PvP piracy - Personally I think it has a place in the game. It needs to be improved (after two years) and should not be about the destruction of CMDRs (see below).

In short, any illegal destruction of a CMDR (by another CMDR) would incur a huge penalty, enough to make sure it was very rare. This alone would mean the best method to PvP would be via (a). And how is that a bad thing? Want to PvP? Then utilise the orchestrated PvP gameplay in the game, rather than randomly interdicting CMDRs not the least bit (currently) interested in it!

 

[lokvette]

Just when I thought the FD forums couldn't astound me or bring my WOW! W T F! meter to an all time high I read the OP.

But I see that this is a place to thrash out ideas and have discussions about the game. So good luck with getting any and I mean any of what is in the OP in game.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

And what about the person who initiated the encounter? Where is their liability here? It does take two, after all, to tango.

What should the penalty be for the aggressor? Let's start with the act that begins the encounter: the interdiction.

Sure, interdicting a clean ship already carries a microscopic fine. This is clearly not enough. Raise that fine from 400 to 4,000,000 and you might see a bit less of this.
Now, moving on to the next crime - the first shot. Firing on a clean ship also carries a micro-penalty. This too should be raised by a factor of 1,000, and no longer be a simple fine, but now a bounty.
Damage to the interdicted ship above 50% of the hull should now be reclassified as a new offence - attempted murder, with a base bounty of 10% of the value of the target ship + cargo, and be a power-wide bounty with no time limit for this to roll over into a legacy fine. It is now yours for life.
Lastly, the offence of murder - once you've committed the crime, your bounty for this offence, also raised by a factor of 1000 also no longer expires, but you then go into a new state - when you a finally brought to justice you pay your insurance claim but do not respawn for 30 minutes per Murder offence. You will be treated to a permanent list of the names of your victims while in your limbo waiting to respawn, as a reminder of what you've done and why you've been exiled to the void.

So until there is an equal force of justice to mete out to those who give cause to others to combat log, there should be no penalty applied to those who do.

And there must be a system in place to determine, with near 100% accuracy, that the person accused of combat logged did not lose power for reasons beyond their control, did not lose connectivity for reasons beyond their control, and did not encounter a system or software error for reasons beyond their control. And there is only one way I can think of to do this: Every single person must have a camera pointed at them the entire time they play to monitor their actions and ensure compliance. Anything else is purely speculation and thus unreliable.

 

[Comrade Error]

See that's the ideology that will not get me to take anything you say on the subject seriously. What ego you must have to think you can tell people what games they should and shouldn't play.wow

Instead of faulting players, you should be asking why FD didn't have a PvP and PvE server separation, like every other MMORPG. People should not have to choose between isolation or bullying.

Either way, telling people " this isn't the game for you" is just a cop out. It offers no solution, and is a simple " my way or the highway" logic, which is a big part of why people are logging on you.

You say you're not a greifer, but your attitude says otherwise.

I cleared my opinion up, sure I said that the game probably isn't for you but that's not accurate at all, the game could very well be for you just not open mode.

There is a PvE mode. Why do people think that solo is anything but a PvE mode? You can join a group with rules of not allowing PvE as well. Open is not a PvP mode either it's a mixed mode where you can encounter anyone from "bullies" to people who will drop you cargo "Just cause". And quit making it out to be that open is only filled with gankers or whatever because that's simply not true.

My attitude says I'm a griefer? I wonder what you'll think of the SDC once you meet them. But anyway, who cares about my attitude? Do my actions say I'm a griefer? I sent you those videos of me getting logged on while pirating, have you eaten your hat yet?

 

[thirstyfish]

I cleared my opinion up, sure I said that the game probably isn't for you but that's not accurate at all, the game could very well be for you just not open mode.

There is a PvE mode. Why do people think that solo is anything but a PvE mode? You can join a group with rules of not allowing PvE as well. Open is not a PvP mode either it's a mixed mode where you can encounter anyone from "bullies" to people who will drop you cargo "Just cause". And quit making it out to be that open is only filled with gankers or whatever because that's simply not true.

My attitude says I'm a griefer? I wonder what you'll think of the SDC once you meet them. But anyway, who cares about my attitude? Do my actions say I'm a griefer? I sent you those videos of me getting logged on while pirating, have you eaten your hat yet?

Solo and private groups like mobius are not permanent solutions for those who enjoy PvE and want interaction with other players. That much is very clear.

 

[Rustled Jimmy]

I cleared my opinion up, sure I said that the game probably isn't for you but that's not accurate at all, the game could very well be for you just not open mode.

There is a PvE mode. Why do people think that solo is anything but a PvE mode? You can join a group with rules of not allowing PvE as well. Open is not a PvP mode either it's a mixed mode where you can encounter anyone from "bullies" to people who will drop you cargo "Just cause". And quit making it out to be that open is only filled with gankers or whatever because that's simply not true.

My attitude says I'm a griefer? I wonder what you'll think of the SDC once you meet them. But anyway, who cares about my attitude? Do my actions say I'm a griefer? I sent you those videos of me getting logged on while pirating, have you eaten your hat yet?

Solo is isolation. Believe it or not, there is social interaction outside of smack talk and threats. Some people actually just talk and help each other out. Meet new friends to wing with...etc.

The way you talk, anyone who doesn't want griefing or "pirating" (semantics, piracy is griefing with text messaging) should ignore all other social aspects of the game and be a recluse in solo.

That's. Awful.

You're not suggesting anything to fix the problem for everyone, just for yourself. Piracy is not a lucrative activity unless you find a ship full of exotic cargo, and even then, the risk vs reward is so unbalanced that the only people who would consistently engage in it are beginners and griefers.

You can dodge it all you like, but it's true.

 

[shadragon]

Aaaand completely missing the point, which is HOW to detect when a player lost the connection to their opponent's computer through no fault of their own.

Statistics combined with in-game telemetry. Boring, tedious, statistics will show a trend of who combat logs when under fire and who falls off line because of connectivity issues.

 

[thirstyfish]

Statistics combined with in-game telemetry. Boring, tedious, statistics will show a trend of who combat logs when under fire and who falls off line because of connectivity issues.

P2P architecture can't do it. P2P is how this game is built. It can't tell the difference between a task kill and a connection loss. Hence why FD haven't taken much, if any action dealing with combat logging. Sure they have called it an exploit, but the tools don't exist for them to do much else. Kinda like the UN, sternly worded letter is the best they got.

 

[Comrade Error]

Solo is isolation. Believe it or not, there is social interaction outside of smack talk and threats. Some people actually just talk and help each other out. Meet new friends to wing with...etc.

The way you talk, anyone who doesn't want griefing or "pirating" (semantics, piracy is griefing with text messaging) should ignore all other social aspects of the game and be a recluse in solo.

That's. Awful.

You're not suggesting anything to fix the problem for everyone, just for yourself. Piracy is not a lucrative activity unless you find a ship full of exotic cargo, and even then, the risk vs reward is so unbalanced that the only people who would consistently engage in it are beginners and griefers.

You can dodge it all you like, but it's true.

Ah ok, good to know you're one of those. "Piracy is griefing".

Well then yes sir I am indeed Hitl- I mean a griefer.

Good bye.

 

[Rustled Jimmy]

Ah ok, good to know you're one of those. "Piracy is griefing".

Well then yes sir I am indeed Hitl- I mean a griefer.

Good bye.

Way to ignore the entire point and cherry pick a single aspect out in an attempt to rebuke that which you have no actual argument to put forth in your favor.

" you're one of those people, good bye"

What are you, 12?