Make Open Play matter - Power Play and BGS should be influenced only in open

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Not a significant cost if not that many people are using it. They can probably rent out a 486DX4 for the job :D
Nah.... a 386DX would probably suffice ;)

Joking aside, there are various potential solutions to the desires of the PvP-centric crowd without resorting to completely separate servers - the only problem is that all those solutions will almost certainly fail to meet their apparent collective criteria.
 
I think you've meanwhile understood the Open port issue and how it affects the whole open only idea. But do we really know how it affects the probability to encounter other players? That would at least require a certain idea about how many routers are set to open ports and how many not. I strongly doubt that even the devs have an idea. As long as we don't know better, there's a reasonable possibility that the number of encounters are 10 times lower for me than for you - hence I would just take a tenths of your risk. I don't claim that's the way it is, but as long as we can't exclude this possibility we have to count on it. And good luck if you consider this trivial, playable or in any other form acceptable. 🤠

Like I said, unless you try, you'll never know if enough people can be seen, it affects the feature in the right way etc. I get what you are saying, but until AI can do what humans do then its the next best thing for the majority.
 
Let me guess. It a Discord channel that full of Gankers.

Thing is. It easy when you can get right wing or left wing Hillbillies to agree with you. Shoot if you tried you can make Flat Earth Extremest Discord channel that agree with you.

Er, no. Its a Discord (one of about 20 Powerplay related) where people discuss and plan Powerplay each week.

Plus its a bit hard not killing when a lot of Powerplay is killing- and only one is from Texas and a 'Hillbilly'.
 
Real time without any sort of end to the conflict is just as worthless as abstract conflict.

What, like factions in the BGS? They have no end and cannot be removed either.

I'll do you a deal. Let's campaign together for FD to add a collapse and rise mechanic to powerplay,

This will not happen as (from memory- I'm sure Mr Maynard has it on file) Sandro commented (when he detailed collpase so long ago) it would only be done when 'main' Powerplay is on even footing. It would be crazy to have collapse before 5C is properly attenuated.

and if they implement that, then it will really be a competitive game, and perhaps worthy of being made open only. Without a win/lose state though, there is nothing worth fighting for, therefore no need for open only.

ED has no win/ lose state in it. The only aspect that does is NPC co-pilot death. FD will not (IMO) ever put collapse in because they as a company are trying to move away from committing daily resources to ED- Galnet for example. With PP, if a Power collapses then FD have to replace it, which takes ongoing effort which they don't want to spend, not until PP pulls in numbers to justify that expense. A better solution would be to make the Galactic Standing mean more, and its workings clearer. ATM its a total mystery how it operates.
 
I'm going to guess a number of them are banned from the forums anyway. There used to be quite a few open only proponents who couldn't debate without resorting to insults who simply dissappeared from the forums shortly afterwards.

I admire Rubbernukes ability to generally remain polite and calm in the face of what he must view as frustrating and unreasoanble opposition, although I can imagine him sitting at home banging his head on his keyboard and saying some choice words about us :D

These people who you paint so vividly are frankly fed up with having to wait 5 years for any improvement. They are quite able to debate and have done so (along with submitting bug reports diligently over and over for years) spending extended amounts of time writing out proposals, ideas, feedback etc. They don't post here because to them there is no point to it.
 
Well I bet I have a lot of fellow console users who are reading topic like this and asking why. It going to hurt players like my self who could only go for the cheapest setup to play Elite Dangerous solo and we have fools asking to have it taken away from us.

Well, it looks like you are a minority sadly: Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/caldqp/psa_we_can_very_roughly_estimate_the_size_of_the/


On the Discords console owners are in the minority as well, and all of them have subs.

setup to play Elite Dangerous solo

Don't you mean play Powerplay solo or are you a well disguised slippery sloping kind of chap as well?
 
I am sorry but your argument is heavily flawed - NPCs do not actually need engineering per se, increasing numbers and have them operating in a wing arguably adds more risk than increasing the strength of a single target.

Unless they are a wing of unenginered Corvettes and I'm in a medium ship (i.e. there is a massive disparity) its not going to make much of a difference.

As for the "AI being constrained", I call rubbish on that one. When running cargo missions, I have had multiple interdictions by NPCs both due directly to mission generated wrinkles and free roaming pirate NPCs - the latter tends to only happen when running higher value cargo but the point is still valid.

AI is constrained in Powerplay, because hauling they only have one chance to get you (in SC- but this is dependent on length of trip, so a short 1 hop will not spawn them)- and that is only one outcome (i.e. they want to kill you). And since they fly ships made out of paper, its next to useless. So rather than being a problem its lip service.

It is not making the most out of PP it is imposing a PvP centric agenda - something FD should not be doing to ANY current element of the main environment.

Taking that hauling example: in solo you very rarely see any AI resistance, let alone anything co-ordinated. Even if FD swapped in extra wrinkles it would not hide the robotic and clockwork responses AI produce, if at all. With everything in Open, there is at least the opportunity for opposition in that one hop haul scenario, and that the enemy can pursue you freeform and dial back the abstraction.

PP could be changed in lots of different ways, and the mission system is perfectly capable of supporting evolving mission chains

That it can. Where are they? FD have been promising them for years. The most complex ones I have seen are 'find target in system x' which is not exactly earth shattering. And how would they fit into Powerplay? How would it play to have a task (haul from a to b) only to be told you have to go to c beforehand, and happens 20% of the time?

Just imposing a PvP agenda on others will not remove repetitiveness nor make it fundamentally any more dynamic. All it will do is address a PvP centric agenda that arguably should be ignored.

It does make it more dynamic, as I've explained repeatedly. At face value Powerplay tasks are simple and direct. Haul 1 type of cargo to x. Shoot NPC. Solo forces everything to be a grind race (I'll haul x merits today!), while with open it allows for greater strategy to overcome present enemies- this manifests in ship design, skills used, teamwork, communication all at the same time as hauling, or shooting.

Any changes to PP should focus on improving the PvE mechanics and keep PvP as emergent, incidental, and entirely optional.

If they can do it in a balanced way then great. However the only route that improves PvE would be to copy the BGS, which then begs the question why have two BGS systems that are doing the same thing? For me I'd love to see better division of labour, with Solo players doing missions that affect fort supplies, fort levels etc (i.e. aumenting and elevating the BGS gameplay and tie it in better) and leave the current PP 'half' Open only.[/QUOTE]
 
Yes, it tends to overlook those who have limited setups, lower performance machines, poor internet connections, or don't pay the Sony/MS tax for open play.

But can't worry about those people, they are obviously a minority and must be dismissed in order to please a different minority :D

Yes- its not that I live in rural France using copper wire broadband that doubles for chicken wire, on a 5 year old PC running a GT 1030.

Sometimes its a case of sucking it up as things move on.
 
On the Discords console owners are in the minority as well, and all of them have subs.
I am sorry but Discord usage does not define who should or should not participate in PP.

Also there is no good reason why any given individual should not be able to participate in PP - whether operating as part of a collective or not.

The key point is despite protestations from some quarters to the contrary, PP is NOT a PvP focused/centric mechanic and it seems that some like yourself want to mutate it into that. Regardless of Sandro's claims, what was delivered was not a PvP mode which means FD's hands are tied in essence. It is clear from the two focused discussions that the Open Only approach is a no go and the Open Biased approach has proven to be also a no go. There were various other improvements discussed in those threads that could be applied but FD seem to have recognised the toxic nature of changing existing gameplay in such a way as to support the PvP centric agenda.

Unless they are a wing of unenginered Corvettes and I'm in a medium ship (i.e. there is a massive disparity) its not going to make much of a difference.
IYO - reality is somewhat different.

AI is constrained in Powerplay, because hauling they only have one chance to get you (in SC- but this is dependent on length of trip, so a short 1 hop will not spawn them)- and that is only one outcome (i.e. they want to kill you). And since they fly ships made out of paper, its next to useless. So rather than being a problem its lip service.
As I see it - there may be some bugs with the spawning logic but the long and the short of it is that NPC ships do not need engineering to be effective.

Taking that hauling example: in solo you very rarely see any AI resistance, let alone anything co-ordinated. Even if FD swapped in extra wrinkles it would not hide the robotic and clockwork responses AI produce, if at all. With everything in Open, there is at least the opportunity for opposition in that one hop haul scenario, and that the enemy can pursue you freeform and dial back the abstraction.
The only thing your Open agenda supports is a PvP-centric one - it does not improve PP, does not change mechanics, and certainly does not anywhere near guarantee you will spawn in an instance with a player engaging in an activity running counter to your PP desires.

That it can. Where are they? FD have been promising them for years. The most complex ones I have seen are 'find target in system x' which is not exactly earth shattering. And how would they fit into Powerplay? How would it play to have a task (haul from a to b) only to be told you have to go to c beforehand, and happens 20% of the time?
Mission chains have been implemented (follow-up linked missions) as have dynamic wrinkles (destination changes and mission generated NPC opposition).

It does make it more dynamic, as I've explained repeatedly. At face value Powerplay tasks are simple and direct. Haul 1 type of cargo to x. Shoot NPC. Solo forces everything to be a grind race (I'll haul x merits today!), while with open it allows for greater strategy to overcome present enemies- this manifests in ship design, skills used, teamwork, communication all at the same time as hauling, or shooting.
Sorry, but you are demonstrably wrong - PvP in general does not make ANY gameplay more dynamic. So what if you may get interdicted by (or be able to interdict) a player executing an activity that runs counter to yours, it is really not that different to an NPC doing the same.

If they can do it in a balanced way then great. However the only route that improves PvE would be to copy the BGS, which then begs the question why have two BGS systems that are doing the same thing? For me I'd love to see better division of labour, with Solo players doing missions that affect fort supplies, fort levels etc (i.e. aumenting and elevating the BGS gameplay and tie it in better) and leave the current PP 'half' Open only.
Not necessarily, PP does not need to copy the BGS at all and PP is a prime candidate for a Career type mechanic. The basic elements are there to support this but there is still no good reason to constrain any part of PP or the BGS to Open only.
 
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I am sorry but Discord usage does not define who should or should not participate in PP.

Also there is no good reason why any given individual should not be able to participate in PP - whether operating as part of a collective or not.

The key point is despite protestations from some quarters to the contrary, PP is NOT a PvP focused/centric mechanic and it seems that some like yourself want to mutate it into that.

From its simplistic mechanics its better off as an Open only activity.

Regardless of Sandro's claims, what was delivered was not a PvP mode which means FD's hands are tied in essence.

Not currently, no.

It is clear from the two focused discussions that the Open Only approach is a no go and the Open Biased approach has proven to be also a no go. There were various other improvements discussed in those threads that could be applied but FD seem to have recognised the toxic nature of changing existing gameplay in such a way as to support the PvP centric agenda.

FD have not done anything, at all. They could have done 4 or 5 of the changes, but did nothing.


IYO - reality is somewhat different.

Not really. The whole purpose is for the AI to attack and destroy you. If it has no chance at all, whats the point of it?

As I see it - there may be some bugs with the spawning logic but the long and the short of it is that NPC ships do not need engineering to be effective.

They do, otherwise you have a massive advantage over weak enemies whose role is to kill you.

The only thing your Open agenda supports is a PvP-centric one - it does not improve PP, does not change mechanics, and certainly does not anywhere near guarantee you will spawn in an instance with a player engaging in an activity running counter to your PP desires.

PvP as in what I described: teamwork, skill, ship design, communication in response to proper threats from other players who are employing the same against you. Plus, this is not 1:1 Red Baron dogfights- its any rival pledge. And even if you don't see them that run, you have to be prepared and take them into account which in turn affects how you play.

Mission chains have been implemented as have dynamic wrinkles.

Quite. Go to system x and find y. The wrinkles are simplistic and irritating, and in a PP context would get in the way if they were superimposed over what we have now.

Sorry, but you are demonstrably wrong - PvP in general does not make ANY gameplay more dynamic. So what if you may get interdicted by (or be able to interdict) a player executing an activity that runs counter to yours, it is really not that different to an NPC doing the same.

And as I said before, the AI most often does not interdict you intelligently or otherwise in a ship that would threaten you enough to make you assess your situation. Players do that, I know because I've fought in open Powerplay battles that have been night and day compared to solo only grinding. Unless NPCs can follow you across systems, guess where you might be or be heading, interdict you, interdict you in a ship capable of harming you, interdict other ships intent on harming you, take risks in and around NFZs and other restricted areas, assist you etc then its quite clear AI cannot do what players do, and that PvP (direct team v team co-op is better) actually does bring more to the table.

Not necessarily, PP does not need to copy the BGS at all and PP is a prime candidate for a Career type mechanic. The basic elements are there to support this but there is still no good reason to constrain any part of PP or the BGS to Open only.

I don't advocate BGS being open at all.

Career or not, it does not answer what role Powerplay supposedly plays- in some form its supposed to be competitive against other players. But it has to be different to the BGS which is the same but across modes.
 
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Let take a look at this. You are going by a Reddit post. Someone that not part of Frontier. And the Poll the guy got from Distance world 2. Question is How many people did Not join DW2. That a Fail on Reddit post and a fail on your part believing the Reddit post.

No, its an intelligent observation based on whats available. The discords I'm on have the same pattern, with most players on PC with few on X box and some on PS4.

Just because its on Reddit, does not make it instantly junk. But then you do assume everyone on PP Discords are hillbillies so it figures I suppose.
 
Yes- its not that I live in rural France using copper wire broadband that doubles for chicken wire, on a 5 year old PC running a GT 1030.

Sometimes its a case of sucking it up as things move on.

Fair enough, tell that to those who want to play PP but won't be able to in an open only regime. Are you willing to pay for the subscriptions to PSN for PS4 players who don't want to pay the Sony tax?
 
These people who you paint so vividly are frankly fed up with having to wait 5 years for any improvement. They are quite able to debate and have done so (along with submitting bug reports diligently over and over for years) spending extended amounts of time writing out proposals, ideas, feedback etc. They don't post here because to them there is no point to it.

Some, probably. I very much doubt they are all as saintly as you paint them either ;)
 
Career or not, it does not answer what role Powerplay supposedly plays- in some form its supposed to be competitive against other players. But it has to be different to the BGS which is the same but across modes.
I am sorry but overall you do not know what you are talking about - regardless of what you seem to think PP is not currently (and should never be considered to be) some vehicle for "enforcing" competitive PvP; However, it is a cross mode mechanic which facilitates emergent, incidental, and on the most part entirely optional competitive PvP. PP is not and should not be mutated into a PvP exclusive or PvP biased mechanic like you and some others are pushing for.

The Open Only argument, whether regarding any specific feature (e.g. PP) or gameplay as a whole, is one that does not serve to improve ED at all. It is abundantly clear from the various posts on the topic that the only agenda in play (in regards to such arguments) is that of those specifically seeking (or overly focused on) engaging in PvP.

Even without engineering of substance or AI changes, NPCs can still be a challenging opposition. The only problem is that some individuals refuse to accept that balance should be kept player neutral on the most part - specific NPCs being spawned to counter specific individuals (e.g. a nemesis mechanic) under certain specific circumstances (e.g. high-notoriety, exceptional levels of PP interaction, or any of a number of tailored and specific opt-in circumstances) may be in order but generic gameplay (inc. PP) needs to be kept neutrally balanced.
 
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What, like factions in the BGS? They have no end and cannot be removed either.



This will not happen as (from memory- I'm sure Mr Maynard has it on file) Sandro commented (when he detailed collpase so long ago) it would only be done when 'main' Powerplay is on even footing. It would be crazy to have collapse before 5C is properly attenuated.



ED has no win/ lose state in it. The only aspect that does is NPC co-pilot death. FD will not (IMO) ever put collapse in because they as a company are trying to move away from committing daily resources to ED- Galnet for example. With PP, if a Power collapses then FD have to replace it, which takes ongoing effort which they don't want to spend, not until PP pulls in numbers to justify that expense. A better solution would be to make the Galactic Standing mean more, and its workings clearer. ATM its a total mystery how it operates.

Its not possible to attenuate 5C without changes to how the mechanics work, and i'm not sure it ever will be possible. Open only won't solve it. Do you think it will? You don't think the 5Cers will just tweak their firewall/router settings or use the block function to ensure they don't see opposing players? Same goes for the botters as well. You think FD will be able to do anything about those players or even detect them? Do you think they will be able to tell the difference between someone intentionallly blocking ports from general network issues? I'll give you a hint, Rockstar did a massive banwave against people who modified their network settings some years ago as "cheating"... they ended up banning a lot of innocents, and after pushback, they had to lift the bans.

So we are back to requing the gameplay to be fundamentally changed to stop 5Cing, but how do you stop someone working for the other side and sabotaging efforts? You can change the mechanics to stop one form, but there will always be another form.

Take a simple team deathmatch game, you can "5C" simply by playing bad. Letting the team down, so the other side wins.

FD might be able to mitigate it somewhat, but there will always be ways to screw over your "own" side.

But from what you are saying, you think PP shouldn't or won't ever have a win/lose state, in which case, forget it, there is no point to PP. Competition without a win/lose state is a joke.

At this point, i'm out, because if its as you say, there is no point to it and never will be. You're not looking for a truly competitive game. Go ahead, keep up the campaign for open only, maybe FD will do it, and enjoy your never ending game of Risk. :p
 
FD might be able to mitigate it somewhat, but there will always be ways to screw over your "own" side.
Exactly - raising the 5C argument as a rationale for PP being either Open Only or Open Biased is at least a bit disingenuous. The agenda in play is more one of trying to ram PvP down other people's throats than actually improve game play for the majority.
 
No, its an intelligent observation based on whats available. The discords I'm on have the same pattern, with most players on PC with few on X box and some on PS4.

Just because its on Reddit, does not make it instantly junk. But then you do assume everyone on PP Discords are hillbillies so it figures I suppose.
From one person on Reddit.

You know anyone can tell a fool a Ant Hill is a mountain and a fool will believe it that a fact. But until we have all the facts. That One intelligent observation is a fail. Until a Working Frontier Dev says otherwise Reddit is not FACT. If you are quote Sandro comments. He has not posted in almost a year.
 
Fair enough, tell that to those who want to play PP but won't be able to in an open only regime. Are you willing to pay for the subscriptions to PSN for PS4 players who don't want to pay the Sony tax?

They can pay for it themselves, since gaming is a luxury. Do they pay for my copy of Windows?
 
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