Make Open Play matter - Power Play and BGS should be influenced only in open

[Rubbernuke]

I understand what you're saying, but again, I'm not talking about "absolute 100% networking", I'm talking about such ridiculous ratios of 1:10 encounter probability, which might come closer to the truth.

But yeah, "make it so".

The proposal does pretty much everything it can to condense down the spaces to push groups together, so the changes on paper are in that direction. But as always- you have to try it to see.

 

[lenna]

Still have to pay it though.

Irrelevant - it is not a recurring and on-going cost.

 

[Jockey79]

Indeed, as I've stated PP is split into two phases of actual play- gathering and delivering. Gathering is PvE because its you grinding as many weak NPCs as you can. After that, you deliver them. Its here where there is no AI that challenges players once they have finished this phase- but its where players come in and alter how that delivery is done, if at all.

You make the assumption players should be the ones stopping other players.
But that has never been a thing in Elite, ever.

This is where the AI needs updating. To fill that role.

And as I've illustrated, the PvP part comes in when the PvE ends, although in combat expansions they can overlap (destruction or drive rival grinders away).

The PvE grind never ends. Even required combat is aimed at harvesting NPCs, not players - because players are worth nothing.

Excellent! Now see how another player can try and stop you.

Why?
That's not why I bought Elite and I don't want random people in my game.

In a mode where AI provides zero threat (unengineered, low grade, small ships) they are easy to get away with. PP as it is, is all about one metric: efficiency. If you can max out your cargo because nothing can stop you it will become normal.

As I've repeatedly said, this is where the AI needs fixing.

Which was dialled back because it was too challenging for the general game. If they had that as a PP only feature along with more brutal ships, it would help along with the new CZ designs.

True, but as I've also stated for Power Play they'd be perfect. So start asking for better PP AI and I'll be more than happy to support you on that.
Whether it "encourages" people to jump out of Solo to get support is questionable (or if they go PG or Open), but it should at least solve the maxed out, no defence cargo runners issue.

 

[Jockey79]

But PCs, especially gaming PCs are generally more expensive. Hence the gap. Plus console owners get unlimited commanders as well.

I'm still annoyed by this, as I want a 2nd commander and will have to buy another account. (I'm waiting for a sale)

 

[Agony_Aunt]

PP has one current way of showing winning and losing- the Galactic Standing (much like squadron leaderboards). FD could make this more transparent or simpler to make it more relevant. Collapse would indeed be great- but, it requires FD to have extra powers on standby. It could be that a collapse state makes a power temporarily the size of its capital system, and powers could pick off what they liked.

Relying on FD to have powers on standby would be as really bad idea.

They can leverage the facial generation system, name generation system, and other systems to create new powers automatically. And they shouldn't pop up out of nowhere though, there would need to be a trigger mechanism, and i'd say that could be the factions. When a faction becomes a certain size, then they become a power. Its what i initially hoped for.

If so, Alioth Independents would likely be a power now, and some of the bigger player groups.

It would also give the BGS players some reason to push for expansions, through PvE, but then when they become powers, then maybe we could have PP being the PvP gameplay that some people crave, supported at the faction level by PvEers in PG/solo.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

But PCs, especially gaming PCs are generally more expensive. Hence the gap. Plus console owners get unlimited commanders as well.

So, you say that requiring people who want to participate in PP should be forced to pay the monthly console tax is fair?

Ok, i disagree.

 

[Rubbernuke]

You make the assumption players should be the ones stopping other players.
But that has never been a thing in Elite, ever.

True, but no other Elite game has tried to shoe horn in a giant team strategy game.

This is where the AI needs updating. To fill that role.

It does- but the AI has to be random like players are and not be a set interdiction at point y as people will simply get used to it or see it as repetitive.

The PvE grind never ends. Even required combat is aimed at harvesting NPCs, not players - because players are worth nothing.

But thats the point- the PvP moderates the PvE.

Why?
That's not why I bought Elite and I don't want random people in my game.

Fair enough- its why IMO I'd either have the BGS as the feature players like you engage in, or that PP has Solo and PG parts that compliment the Open.
[/QUOTE]

As I've repeatedly said, this is where the AI needs fixing.[/QUOTE]
True, but as I've also stated for Power Play they'd be perfect. So start asking for better PP AI and I'll be more than happy to support you on that.
Whether it "encourages" people to jump out of Solo to get support is questionable (or if they go PG or Open), but it should at least solve the maxed out, no defence cargo runners issue.
[/QUOTE]

The idea I posted a while back inverts PvP in escalating difficulty- so as you do more, so does the game push more and more AI NPCs at you until solo is not survivable and team play becomes more important and eventually vital. It looks at your weeks effort and turns it into one push of endurance.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Relying on FD to have powers on standby would be as really bad idea.

They can leverage the facial generation system, name generation system, and other systems to create new powers automatically. And they shouldn't pop up out of nowhere though, there would need to be a trigger mechanism, and i'd say that could be the factions. When a faction becomes a certain size, then they become a power. Its what i initially hoped for.

If so, Alioth Independents would likely be a power now, and some of the bigger player groups.

It would also give the BGS players some reason to push for expansions, through PvE, but then when they become powers, then maybe we could have PP being the PvP gameplay that some people crave, supported at the faction level by PvEers in PG/solo.

This automated system has been a pipe dream for years- the ideal situation would be for factions and PMFs to organically expand and contract. The problem is PMFs are tiny in comparison to powers. The BGS is really where PP should have gone. I think one of my ideas was to devolve Powers into giant factions and you expand like the BGS does.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

This automated system has been a pipe dream for years- the ideal situation would be for factions and PMFs to organically expand and contract. The problem is PMFs are tiny in comparison to powers. The BGS is really where PP should have gone. I think one of my ideas was to devolve Powers into giant factions and you expand like the BGS does.

A) It doesn't need to be PMFs, it can be any faction. However, all of the biggest factions are player factions.

B) DaVinci Corp. control 77 systems and are present in 111. On page 1 of eddb.io, listing by number of controlling systems, only 1 faction is not a PMF, the smallest on that first page controls 29 systems and is present in 56. The biggest non PMF is Alioth Indepdenents at 30 controlled systems, present in 77.

Now, i'm not sure what the cut off point should be, or whether it should be a "top X" which gain power status, what the criteria for rising, falling, or being replaced should be. But i think it is a fantastic "pipe dream", one which gives people in all modes an opportunity to participate in the fate of powers, and then PP can go on top, so when they become powers, it becomes more about direct player conflict, which is where the PvP can come into play. Powers need their champions maintaining their statuses after all!

Sure, its a bit of a pipe dream, but its a solution that might please a lot more than just making it open only, and it would give a mechanism for automated rising and collapsing.

However, not the only solution, it could be handled in other ways. After all, game companies hire game designers for a reason, i'm sure they could find a mechanism to make it work.

Of course, i don't expect anything like that to happen until the 2020 update is out of the way, FD clearly have their plans already laid out. But i'd rather they focus on doing something worthwhile with PP, even if it takes a lot of effort, rather than half-rear-end solution that only caters to a minority at the expense of others, and still doesn't solve the most fundamental problem with PP.

 

[Robert Maynard]

But PCs, especially gaming PCs are generally more expensive. Hence the gap. Plus console owners get unlimited commanders as well.

It was the PC owner's choice to go for PC.

That has no bearing on the console player's choice of hardware of the affordability thereof.

Extra CMDRs are also only a one off cost - for c.30% during the sales.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Actually, here's a thought. Should be not too hard to implement either (and maybe it could go hand in hand with the other of Sandros proposals, although FD have given no signs of implementing any of those), allow any Squadron to become a power once they meet a certain minimum requirement. Their power then appears (inserted) into their home system. This is a great opportunity for some really disruptive play. Powers popping up in the middle of another power's territory, and i would hope, with the inclusion of a collapse mechanic, pretty soon any "stock" FD powers that don't get enough support are totally crushed beneath the heels of the rising powers. Of course, any budding power that spawns itself inside the borders of well supported power is going to be crushed quickly unless they have a lot of support, as the collapse mechanic will apply to them from day 1 as well. There would probably have to be some sort of timeout for squadrons who try to be powers and then fall, like you can't try again for 6 months or a year to stop squadrons spamming, or perhaps some sort of penalty for collapsing, like a massive influence hit of your supported faction across all systems causing you to lose control of many (assuming that is used as the criteria for promotion). Naturally only PMFs would be eledgible in these cases to stop people just grouping up, adopting any large faction, and making it a power.

Sure, its a rough idea, and i'm sure you could nitpick it, but just think of the dynamism it would lend to powerplay. Plus think how invested players would become in it! It would be their Power. If people want to support, they have to join your power/squadron. It would totally cause a lot more conflict and excitement and the first few weeks would probably be crazy!

 

[Sunyavadin]

perhaps some sort of penalty for collapsing, like a massive influence hit of your supported faction across all systems causing you to lose control of many (assuming that is used as the criteria for promotion)

Maybe not that, since then you could take down a BGS faction you oppose by getting them bumped up to power status through all of your (rival) players backing them, then withdrawing that support in order to push them into collapse.

 

[Rubbernuke]

A) It doesn't need to be PMFs, it can be any faction. However, all of the biggest factions are player factions.

B) DaVinci Corp. control 77 systems and are present in 111. On page 1 of eddb.io, listing by number of controlling systems, only 1 faction is not a PMF, the smallest on that first page controls 29 systems and is present in 56. The biggest non PMF is Alioth Indepdenents at 30 controlled systems, present in 77.

Now, i'm not sure what the cut off point should be, or whether it should be a "top X" which gain power status, what the criteria for rising, falling, or being replaced should be. But i think it is a fantastic "pipe dream", one which gives people in all modes an opportunity to participate in the fate of powers, and then PP can go on top, so when they become powers, it becomes more about direct player conflict, which is where the PvP can come into play. Powers need their champions maintaining their statuses after all!

Sure, its a bit of a pipe dream, but its a solution that might please a lot more than just making it open only, and it would give a mechanism for automated rising and collapsing.

However, not the only solution, it could be handled in other ways. After all, game companies hire game designers for a reason, i'm sure they could find a mechanism to make it work.

Of course, i don't expect anything like that to happen until the 2020 update is out of the way, FD clearly have their plans already laid out. But i'd rather they focus on doing something worthwhile with PP, even if it takes a lot of effort, rather than half-rear-end solution that only caters to a minority at the expense of others, and still doesn't solve the most fundamental problem with PP.

As a comparison, Archon Delaine controls 46 odd bubbles, with each bubble consisting between 10 to 20 systems each. Under the current rules you'd be near invincible but unable to expand without significant loss (depending on where you are in relation to the expansion)- if you could find a space to park in to begin with. Grom barely fit and was placed right on top of others.

I actually like the BGS way as then you have 5C proof mechanisms (i.e. expansions are valueless).

I hope FD do a top to toe solution, but I can't see it mainly as the BGS is really what PP should have been and has seen continual development and input. PP wise FD have shown the extent of what they see as the limits of possibility, and its not much at all- most changes are to contain 5C, with uncapped UM being a disaster without Open (since it makes potentially fortifying an unending task with no moderation). FD are also scaling back day to day dependencies in favour of self regulating systems, which again is the BGS. FD don't like PP because its too compromised in far too many areas and remains 'invisible' because of that. As an example the pilots help manual does not even mention PP.

It brushes onto that FD need to actually tell the power groups what is coming so they stay before they dissipate, and give input into flaws before they become set in stone like 5C has done already.

 

[Jockey79]

True, but no other Elite game has tried to shoe horn in a giant team strategy game.

And a "giant team strategy game" doesn't necessarily mean PvP.

I mean it's nice you have the choice, but that's exactly what PvP always has been - a choice.

It does- but the AI has to be random like players are and not be a set interdiction at point y as people will simply get used to it or see it as repetitive.

I agree, so the AI ships and behavior for Power Play need an overhaul.
Again, you want to put the suggestion out there for the Devs, I'm 100% with you

But thats the point- the PvP moderates the PvE.

Not really, PvP just interrupts gameplay for no real reason unless you are someone interested in PvP.
And as we know, most people don't partake of PvP.

Fair enough- its why IMO I'd either have the BGS as the feature players like you engage in, or that PP has Solo and PG parts that compliment the Open.

Well, no matter what we do we all do BGS work, whether we like it or not.

As for Solo / PG parts, are you suggesting splitting PP into segments where the none combat stuff can be done wherever but having the combat elements locked to Open???

The idea I posted a while back inverts PvP in escalating difficulty- so as you do more, so does the game push more and more AI NPCs at you until solo is not survivable and team play becomes more important and eventually vital. It looks at your weeks effort and turns it into one push of endurance.

Interesting idea

 

[Rubbernuke]

Actually, here's a thought. Should be not too hard to implement either (and maybe it could go hand in hand with the other of Sandros proposals, although FD have given no signs of implementing any of those), allow any Squadron to become a power once they meet a certain minimum requirement. Their power then appears (inserted) into their home system. This is a great opportunity for some really disruptive play. Powers popping up in the middle of another power's territory, and i would hope, with the inclusion of a collapse mechanic, pretty soon any "stock" FD powers that don't get enough support are totally crushed beneath the heels of the rising powers. Of course, any budding power that spawns itself inside the borders of well supported power is going to be crushed quickly unless they have a lot of support, as the collapse mechanic will apply to them from day 1 as well. There would probably have to be some sort of timeout for squadrons who try to be powers and then fall, like you can't try again for 6 months or a year to stop squadrons spamming, or perhaps some sort of penalty for collapsing, like a massive influence hit of your supported faction across all systems causing you to lose control of many (assuming that is used as the criteria for promotion). Naturally only PMFs would be eledgible in these cases to stop people just grouping up, adopting any large faction, and making it a power.

Sure, its a rough idea, and i'm sure you could nitpick it, but just think of the dynamism it would lend to powerplay. Plus think how invested players would become in it! It would be their Power. If people want to support, they have to join your power/squadron. It would totally cause a lot more conflict and excitement and the first few weeks would probably be crazy!

A lot of this hinges on FD being able to automate creation and destruction of factions- going by how PMFs need manual insertion and the level of dev input to maintain the BGS I'dbe doubtful. But as an idea, its nice.

 

[Velixar]

As not to derail the topic, paying for a half decent card and gaming PC + Windows leaves a fair amount of catch up for subs.

Let look at this in a relistic instead of your fairly tail excuses. If I pay a Subscription and the only Benefit I get is I can play open. But am on the same Old Console and no upgrades. Your Fairly tail excuse is I upgraded or payed for a new computer it must equal to the same thing as an Console subscription. WRONG! See you upgraded your computer because I assume you are not doing routine maintenance on it. Upgrading drivers and such. Oh and lets Focus on the Upgrade part. You get better frame rate The game runs smother vs your old system or hardware. How dose that equal an console subscription?

I only wish Sandro elaborated further on missions and favours. If these were Solo focussed it would make for a good division of PP activities per mode and then part would be sub free that suits solo and the rest would be Open.

Oh but the thing is Sandros is not here anymore.

 

[Mimix]

No.

 

[Konan]

The point is moot on the matter because the same problem would exist if you did away with PG and solo mode. Xbox , ps4 and PC players cannot interact with other. What's the problem with two more modes where people cannot interact? If you can't fix them all then it doesn't matter

 

[Rubbernuke]

And a "giant team strategy game" doesn't necessarily mean PvP.

I mean it's nice you have the choice, but that's exactly what PvP always has been - a choice.

Currently I agree with you. PP boils down to haul races and shooting galleries which has not been popular.

I agree, so the AI ships and behavior for Power Play need an overhaul.
Again, you want to put the suggestion out there for the Devs, I'm 100% with you

To be honest, unless you have proactive teams of NPCs that keep on coming, I can't visualize mission wrinkles being random enough. They have to push you, and push you to the limit the more you do.

Not really, PvP just interrupts gameplay for no real reason unless you are someone interested in PvP.
And as we know, most people don't partake of PvP.

Thats the goal- PvP in this context is delay, destruction or divert- do it enough to stunt the other powers plans. Outright destruction is great but anything that make an opponent run is worth it.

Well, no matter what we do we all do BGS work, whether we like it or not.
As for Solo / PG parts, are you suggesting splitting PP into segments where the none combat stuff can be done wherever but having the combat elements locked to Open???

I envisaged missions being more advanced with PP flavours that have more RP and lore to them, that all merits gained here pool into a tiered CG like structure. So, the more that is done, the more it helps Open players with say, allocation sizes, times, or other real time benefits.

So on the solo/ PG side you have the BGS missions to support the factions in each control system, and separately classed missions that help the Powers Open players. Things like rescuing PP spies from locations, carrying VIP generals without dying to certain places etc. The open part in this would be as PP is now: haul and gather with the potential for interception. All modes have tailored tasks, and everyone still has access to the bonuses as mission merits and open merits are interchangeable on the rank screen.

 

[Rubbernuke]

The point is moot on the matter because the same problem would exist if you did away with PG and solo mode. Xbox , ps4 and PC players cannot interact with other. What's the problem with two more modes where people cannot interact? If you can't fix them all then it doesn't matter

You go from 9 potential dimensions down to 3. And who knows for the future?