Make Open Play matter - Power Play and BGS should be influenced only in open

[Agony_Aunt]

Maybe not that, since then you could take down a BGS faction you oppose by getting them bumped up to power status through all of your (rival) players backing them, then withdrawing that support in order to push them into collapse.

You see, and that's why i'm not a game designer

 

[Rubbernuke]

Let look at this in a relistic instead of your fairly tail excuses. If I pay a Subscription and the only Benefit I get is I can play open. But am on the same Old Console and no upgrades. Your Fairly tail excuse is I upgraded or payed for a new computer it must equal to the same thing as an Console subscription. WRONG! See you upgraded your computer because I assume you are not doing routine maintenance on it. Upgrading drivers and such. Oh and lets Focus on the Upgrade part. You get better frame rate The game runs smother vs your old system or hardware. How dose that equal an console subscription?

Value wise, you get loads of commanders (ideal for PP) and lots of free AAA games with console subs, so its not exactly money for nothing.

I suppose its like mobile phone contracts- one is a subsidy, the other is bought outright.

See you upgraded your computer because I assume you are not doing routine maintenance on it.

I upgraded because I could not maintain my main PC any longer, it being 10 years old, with parts becoming scarce.

Oh but the thing is Sandros is not here anymore.

But his writings, etched onto stone tablets remain on the Mount™ and the Wall™.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

A lot of this hinges on FD being able to automate creation and destruction of factions- going by how PMFs need manual insertion and the level of dev input to maintain the BGS I'dbe doubtful. But as an idea, its nice.

I'm sure FD are up to the task if they want to put their collective minds to something like that.

 

[Jockey79]

To be honest, unless you have proactive teams of NPCs that keep on coming, I can't visualize mission wrinkles being random enough. They have to push you, and push you to the limit the more you do.

See this is the difference in mentality.
Some people play the game to relax and chill out, some just to waste some time, and so on and so on.
Not everyone wants heart-stopping gameplay. So it needs to be balanced to get the maximum number of people playing it.
The way you just described it, would put most people off.

Thats the goal- PvP in this context is delay, destruction or divert- do it enough to stunt the other powers plans. Outright destruction is great but anything that make an opponent run is worth it.

There is a difference between engaging gameplay that makes you think and annoying gameplay that makes you quit is how often you keep getting pulled over.

Again, it's a balancing act.
If you push too far, you'll just kill the feature off and Frontier wouldn't revisit it a 3rd time.

I envisaged missions being more advanced with PP flavours that have more RP and lore to them, that all merits gained here pool into a tiered CG like structure. So, the more that is done, the more it helps Open players with say, allocation sizes, times, or other real time benefits.

So on the solo/ PG side you have the BGS missions to support the factions in each control system, and separately classed missions that help the Powers Open players. Things like rescuing PP spies from locations, carrying VIP generals without dying to certain places etc. The open part in this would be as PP is now: haul and gather with the potential for interception. All modes have tailored tasks, and everyone still has access to the bonuses as mission merits and open merits are interchangeable on the rank screen.

So if I'm understanding this correctly, each mode has it's own unique access to Power Play.
So everyone, regardless of mode can join in, but the mode you pick changes the types of activities you end up doing?
Of course with Open leaning towards the combat / PvP angle.

That right?

 

[Rubbernuke]

I'm sure FD are up to the task if they want to put their collective minds to something like that.

Seeing the carnage of the September update, and the indifference to Powerplay bugs and issues I'll let you try it first.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

It brushes onto that FD need to actually tell the power groups what is coming so they stay before they dissipate, and give input into flaws before they become set in stone like 5C has done already.

And in this, you probably will be dissapointed, considering how FD plays their cards close to their chest, and at least for the moment, it looks unlikely there will be any PP changes before 2021.

 

[Lestat]

I would like to hear the spec of the Rubbernuke Old system was. What it cost at the time and such. I know the spec of my old system at that time.

 

[Rubbernuke]

See this is the difference in mentality.
Some people play the game to relax and chill out, some just to waste some time, and so on and so on.
Not everyone wants heart-stopping gameplay. So it needs to be balanced to get the maximum number of people playing it.
The way you just described it, would put most people off.

The thing is, then what is PPs role? Its an advanced opt in feature and it needs to challenge you if NPCs are to be seen as credible. Sedate hauling should be for factions or BGS missions where action is in small bursts. If you have a full on Deathvette there is very little groups or even whole wings of PP NPCs can do to stop you. My record for ignoring PP NPCS runs into about 8 at a time while I focus on a ninth because of the titanic shielding I had.

There is a difference between engaging gameplay that makes you think and annoying gameplay that makes you quit is how often you keep getting pulled over.

Indeed- but its like missions currently- I know exactly what each NPC is before I even see the message. They pop up like clockwork, try to interdict in the same places. Its easy to see them and that is not an answer to the problem.

Again, it's a balancing act.
If you push too far, you'll just kill the feature off and Frontier wouldn't revisit it a 3rd time.

It is. Since PP NPCs are your only opponent in Solo PP, they have to actually challenge you to make that mode credible and not just a grinding race. And to be honest PP is at a point where its either kill or cure. You can argue three powers are now puppets, with no real organisation behind them, with the rest stuck in mega teams that go against the dog eat dog ethos the feature was supposed to foster.

So if I'm understanding this correctly, each mode has it's own unique access to Power Play.
So everyone, regardless of mode can join in, but the mode you pick changes the types of activities you end up doing?
Of course with Open leaning towards the combat / PvP angle.

That right?

Pretty much, yes. I'd have to think about it more detail to work out specifics of the idea, but everyone contributes in a way that supports everyone else. So in my example the tier reward would unlock bigger and bigger allocations making fortification easier, something that would be a massive advantage if an uncapped UM fight broke out in a certain control system. These PP missions could also trigger in expansions, perhaps turning the local populace against the power expanding. PP BGS could involve the ground instillation's in some way, so assets held become more important. In the meantime Open only players would do the combative or riskier parts. Its why I wished there was more detail on this with the proposal, because I suspect this is what Sandro was suggesting.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I would like to hear the spec of the Rubbernuke Old system was. What it cost at the time and such. I know the spec of my old system at that time.

The system as new was an OC QX6950 with top end MB and cooling, 4Gb RAM, 2x GTX 8800 ultras in SLI, twin striped HDDs for fast reads, Vista (which was horrible) and a Soundblaster card. It cost about £2K and ran Crysis quite well at 1080p.

 

[Rubbernuke]

And in this, you probably will be dissapointed, considering how FD plays their cards close to their chest, and at least for the moment, it looks unlikely there will be any PP changes before 2021.

And this is partly why the enthusiastic groups that started PP have now withered and died, as they have been slowly shut out from a feature that they keep alive.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

And this is partly why the enthusiastic groups that started PP have now withered and died, as they have been slowly shut out from a feature that they keep alive.

No, shutting out is what you are promoting. I think the phrase you need is the feature they want improving hasn't been. Its understandable, we all want our favourite features improving.

 

[Jockey79]

The thing is, then what is PPs role? Its an advanced opt in feature and it needs to challenge you if NPCs are to be seen as credible. Sedate hauling should be for factions or BGS missions where action is in small bursts. If you have a full on Deathvette there is very little groups or even whole wings of PP NPCs can do to stop you. My record for ignoring PP NPCS runs into about 8 at a time while I focus on a ninth because of the titanic shielding I had.

Flappy Bird was challenging, but for most people, it wasn't fun.
Throwing 30 NPCs per minute at someone just because they signed up to PP would be the ED version of Flappy Bird.

So you have to tread carefully when designing a system to "add challenge". Start small and work up.

As for "then what is PPs role?" - to cause forum fights? As that's all it's done since its release

It is. Since PP NPCs are your only opponent in Solo PP, they have to actually challenge you to make that mode credible and not just a grinding race. And to be honest PP is at a point where its either kill or cure. You can argue three powers are now puppets, with no real organisation behind them, with the rest stuck in mega teams that go against the dog eat dog ethos the feature was supposed to foster.

Again, my point above re: AI and "challenge"
So I agree people shouldn't be running around unopposed, just don't overdo it either.

Pretty much, yes. I'd have to think about it more detail to work out specifics of the idea, but everyone contributes in a way that supports everyone else. So in my example the tier reward would unlock bigger and bigger allocations making fortification easier, something that would be a massive advantage if an uncapped UM fight broke out in a certain control system. These PP missions could also trigger in expansions, perhaps turning the local populace against the power expanding. PP BGS could involve the ground instillation's in some way, so assets held become more important. In the meantime Open only players would do the combative or riskier parts. Its why I wished there was more detail on this with the proposal, because I suspect this is what Sandro was suggesting.

You may want to sit down for this and put any drinks down etc..

I think I could get behind this idea, as it's not taking PP away from anyone.
I quite like how each mode has something that could make it unique to the other modes and it would make you feel like you're part of something bigger.

And it might also encourage people to jump about the mode system;

Solo / PG portion of the weeks work done, hop into Open to help them out.
Open finished the weeks' work early, jump into Solo / PG and lend a hand.

Plus with the tasks being different in each mode, you're not just doing the same thing over and over when you mode jump to help out.

The more I think about this, the more I like it.

 

[Rubbernuke]

No, shutting out is what you are promoting. I think the phrase you need is the feature they want improving hasn't been. Its understandable, we all want our favourite features improving.

All that I argue for Open is from the viewpoint that the proposal 'is it' and nothing else will be produced for us. I argue against people who believe Open would be bad in this context, because without it we have a Consolidation update MK II which maintains the status quo on a failed feature and that once the update is applied, that will be PPs lot. I'd rather test Open and be proved wrong than have an update that never tried it if this is the limits of what FD intend to do with the feature.

 

[Darkfyre99]

[/lurks]

B) DaVinci Corp. control 77 systems and are present in 111. On page 1 of eddb.io, listing by number of controlling systems, only 1 faction is not a PMF, the smallest on that first page controls 29 systems and is present in 56. The biggest non PMF is Alioth Indepdenents at 30 controlled systems, present in 77.

I believe that two of "PMF"s on the first page of EDDB.io were originally named by the Stellar Forge, and there's eight more that I suspect are as well, based on them also following the Stellar Forge's naming conventions. Any faction can be flagged as "player" faction on that website if someone takes a couple seconds to edit its entry, regardless of its actual origin.

Not that it matters any. The game itself doesn't distinguish between those named by the Stellar Forge, and those named by players, nor does a minor faction become an "interstellar" empire without direct player intervention at some point.

You now may return to the Eagles concert, already in progress.


[lurks]

 

[Rubbernuke]

Flappy Bird was challenging, but for most people, it wasn't fun.
Throwing 30 NPCs per minute at someone just because they signed up to PP would be the ED version of Flappy Bird.

I visualized more of an ATR / security like situation, where you have to keep moving and not get pinned. So after a while you have to move and stay just in front of your pursuers. Its a bit like when you are engaged in BGS murder- as the sec forces respond with more and more wings (and eventually ATR) you have to move on. If you are always looking over your shoulder in PP that would be enough menace to give people pause. Plus, it would be in relation to how much merit hauling you are doing- so, if you are moving tens of thousands of merits, you'll see more pushback than with someone starting out who is holding ten.

As for "then what is PPs role?" - to cause forum fights? As that's all it's done since its release

It has been very successful at that.

Again, my point above re: AI and "challenge"
So I agree people shouldn't be running around unopposed, just don't overdo it either.

The level of threat should scale to your involvement. If you shift loads you should become a prime target and feel some heat.

You may want to sit down for this and put any drinks down etc..

Coffee parked.

I think I could get behind this idea, as it's not taking PP away from anyone.

Well, 65 pages and the square is circled

I quite like how each mode has something that could make it unique to the other modes and it would make you feel like you're part of something bigger.

And it might also encourage people to jump about the mode system;

Solo / PG portion of the weeks work done, hop into Open to help them out.
Open finished the weeks' work early, jump into Solo / PG and lend a hand.

Plus with the tasks being different in each mode, you're not just doing the same thing over and over when you mode jump to help out.

The more I think about this, the more I like it.

You could extend the support role even further- as a quick example you could disrupt the tiered CG by using the illegal passenger mechanic to drop saboteurs- sort of covert smuggling that when dropped reduce the totals. But in essence you could mix and match a lot in this way.

The trick is that the solo part helps open, and open helps solo.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

All that I argue for Open is from the viewpoint that the proposal 'is it' and nothing else will be produced for us. I argue against people who believe Open would be bad in this context, because without it we have a Consolidation update MK II which maintains the status quo on a failed feature and that once the update is applied, that will be PPs lot. I'd rather test Open and be proved wrong than have an update that never tried it if this is the limits of what FD intend to do with the feature.

I wasn't debating your position there, i was debating your wording. They are not being shut out. What the open only crowd is wanting to shut people out. Now, its fine if you own that and accept it, perhaps state that you believe such shutting out of certain players is of overall benefit for the game, just be honest about what open only will do and don't misrepresent what FD are doing (or not doing to be precise).

 

[Rubbernuke]

I wasn't debating your position there, i was debating your wording. They are not being shut out. What the open only crowd is wanting to shut people out. Now, its fine if you own that and accept it, perhaps state that you believe such shutting out of certain players is of overall benefit for the game, just be honest about what open only will do and don't misrepresent what FD are doing (or not doing to be precise).

If PP being open via this update makes it more popular than it is now, I'll happily be the guy that drops the axe as FD only update features if they have numbers using them.

I'm always open (if you excuse the pun) to alternatives but those alternatives have to sit inside what they have shown us, unless Adam has a whole whiteboard with PP stuff on.

A few answers back there is a possible compromise that does sit inside that constraint that requires little re purposing though.

 

[Jockey79]

I visualized more of an ATR / security like situation, where you have to keep moving and not get pinned. So after a while you have to move and stay just in front of your pursuers. Its a bit like when you are engaged in BGS murder- as the sec forces respond with more and more wings (and eventually ATR) you have to move on. If you are always looking over your shoulder in PP that would be enough menace to give people pause. Plus, it would be in relation to how much merit hauling you are doing- so, if you are moving tens of thousands of merits, you'll see more pushback than with someone starting out who is holding ten.

Sounds great, I like it

The level of threat should scale to your involvement. If you shift loads you should become a prime target and feel some heat.

Yes, so everyone gets a proportional response. I like it.

Well, 65 pages and the square is circled

You could extend the support role even further- as a quick example you could disrupt the tiered CG by using the illegal passenger mechanic to drop saboteurs- sort of covert smuggling that when dropped reduce the totals. But in essence you could mix and match a lot in this way.

The trick is that the solo part helps open, and open helps solo.

I'm saying "yes" so much, my wife is giving me funny looks.
She'll be checking my browser history later.

 

[Phoenix_Dfire]

So is that it? Did we solve powerplay?

 

[Rubbernuke]

So is that it? Did we solve powerplay?

I believe so. The strange part is that its not far away from what Sandro posted to begin with- it simply beefs up missions and favours using bits already in the game, meaning overall it is achievable for FD within a small update like April, Sept and December.