Make Open Play matter - Power Play and BGS should be influenced only in open

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So is that it? Did we solve powerplay?

:p
I believe so. The strange part is that its not far away from what Sandro posted to begin with- it simply beefs up missions and favours using bits already in the game, meaning overall it is achievable for FD within a small update like April, Sept and December.

The key difference and solution to the main point of contention was the mode system is still being used as part of Power Play in this proposal and not being locked out of it.
So people who wanted "Open Only" still get content locked to Open, but Solo / PG is still part of Power Play with its own content locked to it as well.
Which solves the issues of Console players without premium passes or people who are unable to play Open (for whatever reason) but want to do Power Play.

Everybody can still take part in Power Play in their own way.
It's a genius plan by Rubbernuke.
 
  1. Blocking should just block chat and not impact instancing
  2. Power Play numbers for the powers only impacted by actions in Open. Still allow merits to be earned in Solo/PG that influence the players rank and nothing else (Maybe bonus for doing in open)
  3. BGS factions only impacted by actions in Open. Still allow players to gain rep for actions in Solo/PG (Maybe bonus for doing in open)
This would make playing in open meaningful. Players should not be able to "hide" from opponents of their actions in Power Play or BGS.

For those who wish to play in PG or Solo, they're still able to get everything they can get that influences only them (merits, powerplay modules, faction rep).

I have had this almost exact down to the letter idea myself many times.

Really glad someone else is putting this down.

100% agree from me, seems to satisfy everyone.

Just not fair someone can sit in solo and influence faction and PP state with no ability to oppose it. These are zero sum games, for someone to succeed someone else loses.

If you need anything from me to help put this plan forward please give a PM will be glad to help out.

THIS is the way forward.

Signing off,

CMDR Gavin786
 
So you have to tread carefully when designing a system to "add challenge". Start small and work up.
I disagree that "(combat) challenge" should specifically be an end goal of PP. I do not disagree that "(combat) challenge" opportunities should be available but disagree "(combat) challenge" opportunities should scale automatically with level of contribution.

What I would propose is something along the lines of a merger of the Imperial/Federal rank system and their corresponding Imperial/Federal faction reputation with rank up missions being required to ascend to the next level (to a point). Beyond that point, the highest ranks could be based on a league table of relative performance during the previous PP cycle in a similar fashion to CG contribution reward tiers.

This revised PP rank progression system could then be used as a means to moderate both level of challenge and level of influence perhaps with diminishing rewards for those that do not choose to progress to the next level. The rank progression mission themselves would need to provide guaranteed combat opposition comparable to the level of combat opposition they would likely face after attaining the rank with a select-able alternative reward (to progression) of personal credits (for example).

The activity/decisions of the leader board based higher ranks could then be used to help influence available missions for the lower ranking PP participants (and the direction(s) of expansion for the power as a whole). In order to avoid deliberate disruption of PP activities overall, these higher level "PP leadership ranks" (for want of a better term) could be subject to policing and moderation direct by FD if deemed necessary.

It could be the case that these higher leadership ranks (in part or whole) could be gated by Open Only and perhaps involve some direct PvP activities (e.g. some form of moderated PvP competition/tournament) given their level of impact on PP as a whole. Alternatively (and my personal preference), they may need to put forward their candidacy for consideration and leadership rank be determined first by being "PP-aligned player votes/support" (perhaps once a month/quarter/year unless they abdicate or found absent for more than a set period of time) and secondly by relative level of PP performance. In the case of absolute tie-breaker situations, an influence sharing mechanic would need to be applied - e.g. an even split of leadership influence points. In the case of one or more absent "PP leader", their "silent" influence would be fairly distributed across the other leaders in such a way as to maintain the tiered level of influence system.

The key point with the above is that the leadership ranks would at least in part lose any entitlement to anonymity (from an in-game persona perspective) and perhaps be modelled on a democratic proportional representation system of governance. Such a system should in theory be highly resistant to 5C disruption if the leadership ranks (and how they influence PP) are modelled appropriately.

Whether the leadership ranks should constrained to Open Only (or not) is a matter for FD to decide on BUT the key point would be that the Open Only constraint would only apply to such ranks. Personally, I would prefer to keep it mode neutral and let the players elect their PP leaders from those that put themselves forward for the responsibility (subject to proving themselves via progression through the lower PP ranks). The Open participation aspect would then become a matter of choice with all of the candidates perhaps having their mode preferences (and/or level of Open participation) being a matter of record available to PP allies both before and after being elected.

In such a system, PP related PvE challenge level would also be scaled according to PP rank in a similar fashion to how combat mission difficulty scales with combat rank.
 
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Existing PP mechanics need to be maintained as multi-mode without any mode bias.

Any open only mechanics need to have zero net effect on the cross-mode shared universe state otherwise it would break the concept of "all modes being equal" and ultimately restrict player choice.

That's a false premise to base your arguement on. As it stands, modes are not really equal are they? Sure, everyone can exert equal influence on the BGS or PP, have equal access to ships & modules, equal opportunity for earning credits, etc. But there is a pretty broad general consensus that Open play is inherently more dangerous / difficult - otherwise, nobody would be switching to solo to go to engineer bases, nobody would be switching to solo at CGs, explorers wouldn't be switching to solo when they got near the bubble to protect their data, there'd be no threads bemoaning occasional ganking, the impossibility of surviving a player interdiction, the imbalance between combat vs trade/exploration ships, etc. Even this very thread has raised the spectre of how utterly inadequate the standard AI is at providing even a modicum of challenge vs a partially engineered ship. So there already IS a level of inherent mode bias.

Setting that aside, these opposing views on OOPP or OBPP are so firmly entrenched atm, maybe it's time to look for other 'test' solutions. The last time I suggested this, it went completely ignored, but with more people seeming to acknowledge the existing imbalance re pointless AI as a challenge to PP, consider the following.

As it is, enemy ships are spawned based (in my experience) on a combination of a Cmdrs combat rank, ship being piloted, and mission level. Would it be too hard, too much to ask, or undesirable to flip that system on it's head for PP? Instead of the AI that I spawn in a PP system being determined by my Cmdr/ship statistics, have it be determined by Cmdrs/ships from enemy powers that are currently in that system whether they are in the same or different mode. So, if Rubbernuke wants to patrol/blockade a PP system in Open with his combat ship, and I am running merits with my mostly harmless alt in an unengineered T9 in solo, I spawn opposing AI (pirates, opposition PP, etc.) according to his statistics - Elite AI in engineered ships with better interdiction programming. For Rubbernuke, any opposing PP authority/trade vessels will accordingly spawn based on my statistics - allowing him to pretty much blockade at his leisure, unless someone on my side commits an equally engineered combat to help secure my passage through that system by increasing the difficulty of ships spawned in opposition to his activities.

To avoid simply parking in SC as a loophole - no spawn influence until Rubber starts (and continues) killing the opposing PP trade ships that have spawned by my presence, which will only attract low level opposing PP combat/authority ships, until countered by my side changjng to armoured & enginereed trade ships and providing proper combat support ships. Essentially, part of the merit hauling contest then involves influencing and managing the opposing AI spawn levels/rates, which could be treated much like the new CZs - a simple bar that responds to each sides activities - Rubbernukes AI influences rises as he kills opposing trade & authority ships, and requires continuous action to maintain Elite G5 spawning (degrades with inactivity), and this can be made more difficult by using harder to kill trade ships and directly countered by destroying the AI being spawned by Rubbernukes actions.

Rubbernuke has a means of countering easy merit haulers in solo by directly influencing the AI being spawned against his opponents, but forgoes the ability to haul merits in opposition - not PvP, but at least able to oppose as if it were all done in open. It mitigates the whole platform/instancing/blocking issue that OOPP would face. It doesn't force PvP on people dead set against it. It maintains the (currently) mostly indirect competitive nature of PP. And, is a soft rebalancing of the current difficulty disparity between modes without the trouble of massive ship/engineering rebalancing.
 
That's a false premise to base your arguement on. As it stands, modes are not really equal are they? Sure, everyone can exert equal influence on the BGS or PP, have equal access to ships & modules, equal opportunity for earning credits, etc. But there is a pretty broad general consensus that Open play is inherently more dangerous / difficult - otherwise, nobody would be switching to solo to go to engineer bases, nobody would be switching to solo at CGs, explorers wouldn't be switching to solo when they got near the bubble to protect their data, there'd be no threads bemoaning occasional ganking, the impossibility of surviving a player interdiction, the imbalance between combat vs trade/exploration ships, etc. Even this very thread has raised the spectre of how utterly inadequate the standard AI is at providing even a modicum of challenge vs a partially engineered ship. So there already IS a level of inherent mode bias.

Setting that aside, these opposing views on OOPP or OBPP are so firmly entrenched atm, maybe it's time to look for other 'test' solutions. The last time I suggested this, it went completely ignored, but with more people seeming to acknowledge the existing imbalance re pointless AI as a challenge to PP, consider the following.

As it is, enemy ships are spawned based (in my experience) on a combination of a Cmdrs combat rank, ship being piloted, and mission level. Would it be too hard, too much to ask, or undesirable to flip that system on it's head for PP? Instead of the AI that I spawn in a PP system being determined by my Cmdr/ship statistics, have it be determined by Cmdrs/ships from enemy powers that are currently in that system whether they are in the same or different mode. So, if Rubbernuke wants to patrol/blockade a PP system in Open with his combat ship, and I am running merits with my mostly harmless alt in an unengineered T9 in solo, I spawn opposing AI (pirates, opposition PP, etc.) according to his statistics - Elite AI in engineered ships with better interdiction programming. For Rubbernuke, any opposing PP authority/trade vessels will accordingly spawn based on my statistics - allowing him to pretty much blockade at his leisure, unless someone on my side commits an equally engineered combat to help secure my passage through that system by increasing the difficulty of ships spawned in opposition to his activities.

To avoid simply parking in SC as a loophole - no spawn influence until Rubber starts (and continues) killing the opposing PP trade ships that have spawned by my presence, which will only attract low level opposing PP combat/authority ships, until countered by my side changjng to armoured & enginereed trade ships and providing proper combat support ships. Essentially, part of the merit hauling contest then involves influencing and managing the opposing AI spawn levels/rates, which could be treated much like the new CZs - a simple bar that responds to each sides activities - Rubbernukes AI influences rises as he kills opposing trade & authority ships, and requires continuous action to maintain Elite G5 spawning (degrades with inactivity), and this can be made more difficult by using harder to kill trade ships and directly countered by destroying the AI being spawned by Rubbernukes actions.

Rubbernuke has a means of countering easy merit haulers in solo by directly influencing the AI being spawned against his opponents, but forgoes the ability to haul merits in opposition - not PvP, but at least able to oppose as if it were all done in open. It mitigates the whole platform/instancing/blocking issue that OOPP would face. It doesn't force PvP on people dead set against it. It maintains the (currently) mostly indirect competitive nature of PP. And, is a soft rebalancing of the current difficulty disparity between modes without the trouble of massive ship/engineering rebalancing.

Its certainly an interesting idea, and one thats floated in the past.
 
So much I do understand how and why open only is desirable, undeniable fact is the huge gap between dedicated PvPers and the common PvE player. This would most likely result in a huge portion of players stop playing Power Play at all. Not sure if this already ailing patient would survive such a heavy cut.

As a side note, my former objections regarding instancing and open ports have been widely refuted by some of my latest observations. The netcode in ED works much better than I expected (tested in Shinrarta Dezhra), surprisingly regardless whether with or without open ports. Looks like the network settings page isn't all too informative: If true, I shouldn't see anyone in Open. I can assure you that's not the case. But why this works at all is pure voodoo

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Remember open and solo tasks would be split to each mode rather than force everything across all three. It would generate new gameplay for both sides (Solo with PP missions and sabotage) and Open with hauling and UM in Open.
 
Remember? I can't remember any signs from the devs that they're going to split the game into different versions. If that would be the case, we'd long have an offline modus by now. Remember? ;)

The proposal that was discussed before elaborated on this point and defined it better:

Missions give Powerplay successes

• Missions for factions in a system that share a power’s superpower award a number of Powerplay successes when completed
• The mission type determines how many successes are given
• Successes can be applied to expansion, opposition, fortification and undermining

Reasoning: one of the complaints of Powerplay is the limited actions available to support your power. We think that liking, in a very simple manner, missions for aligned factions and Powerplay successes allows Commanders increased variety in an efficient manner. The idea is not to replace the standard Powerplay activities, but to compliment them.

If this was the Solo half and Open had the simple cargo runs and UM / expansion combat, it provides new things for both.
 
New things and yet - different things in different modes => more work for the devs, more future maintenance required.
Cause let's face it, it wouldn't stop at that.
This I'm afraid would require tons of pizzas...

Really? Open would sustain itself, and mission templates can be fed in server side for solo. Maintenance comes from lore and bug fixing.
 
Guess you haven't stretched your imagination all too much for this oversimplified summary.

It is a simplified summary, because thats whats been added on top of what we have in PP- its not a huge leap from Sandros update.

PP as we know today is Open only gated.

Sandros PP missions is expanded into a companion PP, which when undertaken fits snugly with Open.

Two halves that both drive the feature from modes that suit the tasks best. All bonuses are kept between players of either half, the Solo side can have more PP lore flavouring for each power and varied tasks based on the advanced BGS missions.

Cause let's face it, it wouldn't stop at that.

What you are trying to say without saying it, is slippery slope.
 
And I asked a question back as I was genuinely curious because Horizons was (at the time I was keeping track) a problem with surfaces and that FD were aware of issues mixing the two.
and still, what does that have to with costs on consoles that are not present in PC?
That's a false premise to base your arguement on. As it stands, modes are not really equal are they? Sure, everyone can exert equal influence on the BGS or PP, have equal access to ships & modules, equal opportunity for earning credits, etc. But there is a pretty broad general consensus that Open play is inherently more dangerous / difficult - otherwise, nobody would be switching to solo to go to engineer bases, nobody would be switching to solo at CGs, explorers wouldn't be switching to solo when they got near the bubble to protect their data, there'd be no threads bemoaning occasional ganking, the impossibility of surviving a player interdiction, the imbalance between combat vs trade/exploration ships, etc. Even this very thread has raised the spectre of how utterly inadequate the standard AI is at providing even a modicum of challenge vs a partially engineered ship. So there already IS a level of inherent mode bias.

Setting that aside, these opposing views on OOPP or OBPP are so firmly entrenched atm, maybe it's time to look for other 'test' solutions. The last time I suggested this, it went completely ignored, but with more people seeming to acknowledge the existing imbalance re pointless AI as a challenge to PP, consider the following.

As it is, enemy ships are spawned based (in my experience) on a combination of a Cmdrs combat rank, ship being piloted, and mission level. Would it be too hard, too much to ask, or undesirable to flip that system on it's head for PP? Instead of the AI that I spawn in a PP system being determined by my Cmdr/ship statistics, have it be determined by Cmdrs/ships from enemy powers that are currently in that system whether they are in the same or different mode. So, if Rubbernuke wants to patrol/blockade a PP system in Open with his combat ship, and I am running merits with my mostly harmless alt in an unengineered T9 in solo, I spawn opposing AI (pirates, opposition PP, etc.) according to his statistics - Elite AI in engineered ships with better interdiction programming. For Rubbernuke, any opposing PP authority/trade vessels will accordingly spawn based on my statistics - allowing him to pretty much blockade at his leisure, unless someone on my side commits an equally engineered combat to help secure my passage through that system by increasing the difficulty of ships spawned in opposition to his activities.

To avoid simply parking in SC as a loophole - no spawn influence until Rubber starts (and continues) killing the opposing PP trade ships that have spawned by my presence, which will only attract low level opposing PP combat/authority ships, until countered by my side changjng to armoured & enginereed trade ships and providing proper combat support ships. Essentially, part of the merit hauling contest then involves influencing and managing the opposing AI spawn levels/rates, which could be treated much like the new CZs - a simple bar that responds to each sides activities - Rubbernukes AI influences rises as he kills opposing trade & authority ships, and requires continuous action to maintain Elite G5 spawning (degrades with inactivity), and this can be made more difficult by using harder to kill trade ships and directly countered by destroying the AI being spawned by Rubbernukes actions.

Rubbernuke has a means of countering easy merit haulers in solo by directly influencing the AI being spawned against his opponents, but forgoes the ability to haul merits in opposition - not PvP, but at least able to oppose as if it were all done in open. It mitigates the whole platform/instancing/blocking issue that OOPP would face. It doesn't force PvP on people dead set against it. It maintains the (currently) mostly indirect competitive nature of PP. And, is a soft rebalancing of the current difficulty disparity between modes without the trouble of massive ship/engineering rebalancing.

This sounds alot like a suggestion i made for generic sync of NPC's in general... regardless of what we do... being it community goal, mission running etc.

And we are talking about the basic same stuff

I do something repeatedly and doing it enough, triggers the generating of NPC's in other players sessions that mimics what I do..


Your example is focused on PP, but the same could be applied just about anything... so a crowded system with players, should be "crowded" for a solo player too, but with NPC's instead...


Now it does not matter if we our stuff in open, solo, on PC, on console etc. if we do enough of stuff it gets reflected on all other platforms/modes, and now other players can react to this. Of course, this will not solve the issue for PvP players that only want tot shoot at other players, but it will fix most of their arguments for Open Only reasons... and also take into considerations of all the stuff they do not want acknowledge... like different platforms, time zones and instancing.
 
So much I do understand how and why open only is desirable, undeniable fact is the huge gap between dedicated PvPers and the common PvE player. This would most likely result in a huge portion of players stop playing Power Play at all. Not sure if this already ailing patient would survive such a heavy cut.

As a side note, my former objections regarding instancing and open ports have been widely refuted by some of my latest observations. The netcode in ED works much better than I expected (tested in Shinrarta Dezhra), surprisingly regardless whether with or without open ports. Looks like the network settings page isn't all too informative: If true, I shouldn't see anyone in Open. I can assure you that's not the case. But why this works at all is pure voodoo

View attachment 145718

If the other CMDR have open ports on their end, then you can initiate connection to them, and you can now share the information and see each other.
So you need to be two to test this... and regardless who of you have open ports you should still be able to instance together, but the order of who creates instance might important, like who drops of super cruise first etc. And when both have blocked ports, then you should be unable instance at all as I am not aware that ED uses any fancy tricks to get around that issue.
 
and still, what does that have to with costs on consoles that are not present in PC?

I already answered it, you are paying for your access to the game- you choose to either get it on PC for a higher price initially and then freeish after, or a lower one on console initially and subsidize MS or Sony. Eventually they meet in the middle.

Plus, mirrored human NPCs are fine until they hit the same restrictions AI have currently, i.e. limited spawn areas and logic when in and about NFZs etc. In this scenario they'd have to be more powerful to even try and kill players since their window of action is a fraction of a player. That, and there are fixed ratios of PP NPCs that spawn in systems along with local traffic.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
I already answered it, you are paying for your access to the game- you choose to either get it on PC for a higher price initially and then freeish after, or a lower one on console initially and subsidize MS or Sony. Eventually they meet in the middle.
One does not need to continue to subsidise the console platform owner to play this game (or Powerplay) in Solo - so they don't "meet in the middle".
 
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That is total and utter preached by the PvPing crowd in general.

Considering I had to stack three elite pirate assassin missions (so 2 Pirate Lord Corvettes, 1 FdL), on top of two cargo deliveries and drop into a hostile and compromised powerplay NAV (with the whole nav point wanting to pirate me) to push a G5 PvE Corvette, PvE generally is safe as houses. Its childsplay doing BGS murder stints because you can count your kills and count to the last kill when ATR will pop up and know every timing security, ATR, Powerplay and BH runs by.

Open is more dangerous because players operate outside these rules, AI don't. You can be 100% safe in Solo if you don't have the cargo / mission / pledge & faction status. And even then RNG is in play and your opposition my never appear anyway.
 
Well its like buying half a console these days without a sub.
Not really, but you need not buy an overly expensive PC to be able to play ED and modern consoles are not sufficiently cheaper in hardware terms to make your argument anything even close to being valid.
 
Considering I had to stack three elite pirate assassin missions (so 2 Pirate Lord Corvettes, 1 FdL), on top of two cargo deliveries and drop into a hostile and compromised powerplay NAV (with the whole nav point wanting to pirate me) to push a G5 PvE Corvette, PvE generally is safe as houses. Its childsplay doing BGS murder stints because you can count your kills and count to the last kill when ATR will pop up and know every timing security, ATR, Powerplay and BH runs by.

Open is more dangerous because players operate outside these rules, AI don't. You can be 100% safe in Solo if you don't have the cargo / mission / pledge & faction status. And even then RNG is in play and your opposition my never appear anyway.
Your reasoning is bunk - instancing in ED means that you are not guaranteed to spawn with any given individual or given subset of individuals that are in the same mode as you and on the same platform.

You are only stating the same tripe that PvPers have been claiming for years, it is no more true now than it ever really has been.
 
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