Yeah. If they would only implement some sort of colored shading overlay for the map to show how the zones work out, I think that would make it much more user friendly. A lot of other games have color shaded views of the map to show feedback to the player. Doesn't seem like Planet Coaster's engine has this feature (yet.)
Management Matters
- Thread starter Bo Marit
- Start date
Yeah. If they would only implement some sort of colored shading overlay for the map to show how the zones work out, I think that would make it much more user friendly. A lot of other games have color shaded views of the map to show feedback to the player. Doesn't seem like Planet Coaster's engine has this feature (yet.)
I watched the livestream and there was awesome ideas... The UI for management is really better than previous games and seems to give really useful informations. And yes for staff zones return!
The staff management is very basic, but could be interesting if it has a real impact in the game. Yeah, it says increased productivity, but will it really impact the guests happiness and waiting time? If yes, it would be great.
The more I read, watch and think about the game, the more awesome I find the ambiance, visuals and UI to be. But about the gameplay...
- I really hope for difficulty levels and real challenges.
There's already many interesting ideas, but it doesn't seem to have enough impact in the game (for example: the guests are aware of all the surroundings, rides, the scenery around a ride is taken into account, waiting time, etc). But I never felt a challenge and never fear to lost guests and reputation due to these kind of facts.
I would like it to change with difficulty level. We could have easy (classic as it is now), moderate and difficult and the guests will react a lot more and faster to bad decision in higher difficulty level (ride aging, lack of ride/toilets/restaurants/etc., staff demotivated, lack of exciting rides, etc.). I want to really feel that my decision directly and really impact the game.
- An option that would be awesome is the possibility to change how much time (in real-time) a day and night last. For the moment, the day and night are really too fast for my personal taste. With an option to set how many minutes a day last and how many minutes a night last would be incredible.
- Also, some new little ideas (not overly complicated to keep the fun fact) like:
* stocks management (basic stocks and ordering in the UI with a auto manage toggle on/off for the people who don't want to)
* garbage disposal building, janitor will bring garbages to this place (to be hidden from guests)
* warehouse for stocks (and it could be fun to have staff to deliver goods).
With real challenges & difficulty levels, it would be really more fun. And if we've this and some new little things to manage, this game would be my perfect game.
Sure, there are others options that could add more depth, but it's not essential and it could be more complicated to do like: buildings and rides not instantly built, closing times really emptied the park, staff schedule, multi-day pass, etc.
The staff management is very basic, but could be interesting if it has a real impact in the game. Yeah, it says increased productivity, but will it really impact the guests happiness and waiting time? If yes, it would be great.
The more I read, watch and think about the game, the more awesome I find the ambiance, visuals and UI to be. But about the gameplay...
- I really hope for difficulty levels and real challenges.
There's already many interesting ideas, but it doesn't seem to have enough impact in the game (for example: the guests are aware of all the surroundings, rides, the scenery around a ride is taken into account, waiting time, etc). But I never felt a challenge and never fear to lost guests and reputation due to these kind of facts.
I would like it to change with difficulty level. We could have easy (classic as it is now), moderate and difficult and the guests will react a lot more and faster to bad decision in higher difficulty level (ride aging, lack of ride/toilets/restaurants/etc., staff demotivated, lack of exciting rides, etc.). I want to really feel that my decision directly and really impact the game.
- An option that would be awesome is the possibility to change how much time (in real-time) a day and night last. For the moment, the day and night are really too fast for my personal taste. With an option to set how many minutes a day last and how many minutes a night last would be incredible.
- Also, some new little ideas (not overly complicated to keep the fun fact) like:
* stocks management (basic stocks and ordering in the UI with a auto manage toggle on/off for the people who don't want to)
* garbage disposal building, janitor will bring garbages to this place (to be hidden from guests)
* warehouse for stocks (and it could be fun to have staff to deliver goods).
With real challenges & difficulty levels, it would be really more fun. And if we've this and some new little things to manage, this game would be my perfect game.
Sure, there are others options that could add more depth, but it's not essential and it could be more complicated to do like: buildings and rides not instantly built, closing times really emptied the park, staff schedule, multi-day pass, etc.
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I know it's easy for me to say because I've seen it but I'm actually getting a little irritated now. I don't want to annoy anyone in the community as I feel it's an amazing community, but it seems like whatever is shown, it will never be enough.
The standard for this type of game seems to be Rollercoaster Tycoon 3. That was amazing for it's time but I can't remember being so blown away by it and it's graphics and gameplay at the time. And most importantly, don't forget that it was Frontier and this team that made that. Now I suggest you all compare that to Planet Coaster. This game hasn't even launched yet, so who knows what is coming further down the line. Everything seems to be something special and every day seems to be a revelation. What do you think next week's rides livestream will be like? So just wait and see. Things are happening here.
The standard for this type of game seems to be Rollercoaster Tycoon 3. That was amazing for it's time but I can't remember being so blown away by it and it's graphics and gameplay at the time. And most importantly, don't forget that it was Frontier and this team that made that. Now I suggest you all compare that to Planet Coaster. This game hasn't even launched yet, so who knows what is coming further down the line. Everything seems to be something special and every day seems to be a revelation. What do you think next week's rides livestream will be like? So just wait and see. Things are happening here.
Yep [happy]
And it's our role !!!
You know why ?
"Always aim for the moon, even if you miss it, you'll land among the stars" [wink]
Nemmie, I don't know why exactly you said that this will never be enough and it's just after my message, so maybe it's because what I've said.
If this is the case, my post is not to irritate anyone... It's just my personal opinion and I also write oftently on this forum that the team is awesome and does an amazing game visually, the ambiance is awesome, the tools are powerful and give a lot of possibility.
But I never hide that what I prefer and would like to see in the game is challenging and interesting new management ideas. For the moment (maybe there's still a lot to come before release), I'm a little bit disappointed to not see a lot of additions to this side of the game. I'll not rewrite my post, by I find that I was giving constructive ideas and not bashing the game.
The game is an amazing journey, but I don't find it awesome about the management side. It's a game so incredible about building that I still hope to see this kind of awesomeness about management so that's why I'm so invested to give details about what I'm looking for and why...
If this is the case, my post is not to irritate anyone... It's just my personal opinion and I also write oftently on this forum that the team is awesome and does an amazing game visually, the ambiance is awesome, the tools are powerful and give a lot of possibility.
But I never hide that what I prefer and would like to see in the game is challenging and interesting new management ideas. For the moment (maybe there's still a lot to come before release), I'm a little bit disappointed to not see a lot of additions to this side of the game. I'll not rewrite my post, by I find that I was giving constructive ideas and not bashing the game.
The game is an amazing journey, but I don't find it awesome about the management side. It's a game so incredible about building that I still hope to see this kind of awesomeness about management so that's why I'm so invested to give details about what I'm looking for and why...
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It seems you and me are actually frustrated with the same thing ultimately. The community doesn't have enough information to make legitimate opinions. You can't tell us and Frontier won't tell us. It's frustrating and seems pointless, to me.
Supposedly this stream was focused on management. I'm pretty sure the first half was management and the second half was more scenery! Like, I know the scenery is amazing and mind blowing. I have no doubt the scenery will blow everyone away. Was there so little management to talk about?
Wondering as tweaks come about if in future iterations, training will allow only specific staff to complete specific jobs. Say it requires a level 5 engineer to refurbish a coaster. A 4 will never work. So, you're left with the choice of shutting the ride down until you pay for the training (or keep on top of it ahead of time). Are there rides (in real life) that are pretty routine to fix (level 1s) and those which require much more complicated steps (level 5). Might give more incentive to focus on training if you can't fix a ride for x amount of months.
(or if not for the game, the scenarios could accomplish this somehow I would imagine.)
Or your training to the entertainer improves the mood of her subjects by 5, 10, 15, 25, 50 (max) on highest level. So, you get the brattiest kid and pop level 5 Ellie in front of her, that should dry those tears away and get that kid back jumping for joy. ..where a level 4 Ellie might just get her to stop crying, and the level 1 just gives up and reconsiders her choices for working as an entertainer.
(or if not for the game, the scenarios could accomplish this somehow I would imagine.)
Or your training to the entertainer improves the mood of her subjects by 5, 10, 15, 25, 50 (max) on highest level. So, you get the brattiest kid and pop level 5 Ellie in front of her, that should dry those tears away and get that kid back jumping for joy. ..where a level 4 Ellie might just get her to stop crying, and the level 1 just gives up and reconsiders her choices for working as an entertainer.
This a 1000 times. This game is amazing and head and shoulders above anything else out there. At some point it is OK to just be happy and realize you have 100's of hours of entertainment in your future.
I'll put this out there. The game needs as few new features as possible to keep it playable by the masses. They can get 80% of the things that people want and can ignore the rest of it and still put out an amazing game. If they tried to do that key 80 and then continue to work on the 20% more, you'll never get a game that looks like this. Additionally, the game can already overwhelm people with the choices on what to build, all of the pieces that can be used, and just learning how to place paths, scenery, etc. If I'm trying to sell this is a cool game for my 13 year old nephew, he's gonna want build, ride, and crash coasters. My niece will probably design to her heart's content. And the youngest will do the most basic plopping of flat rides and reconstructed rides and never really finish a game. On top of my management play style focus and sandbox creations, there is so much to do in the core game.
Some of the things being asked for don't add value to the game. Maybe a sense of realness for those very limited people who want to see proof that shops get stocked, trash gets taken out, security guards taze vandals...but I argue that these are all distractions for the devs and sure they could visit every single one...it's their business...but I think they know what formula will sell and I dont think it includes the following items (yet)
This is supposed to be a game and with games there is this need for flow. If I'm constantly distracted because:
If we were concocting other problems we could also introduce:
We could probably fill pages of things that 'should' be included buy we'll never get them all and if we did, none of us would have the computer needed to play the game
"Guests are complaining that trash is a problem near Ride X" -- we send the janitor and while we see her sweep, we recognize that at some point this trash will indeed find its way out of the park...we don't see to see it to know it is true...it's just the way of the world. If I'm in building/designing mode in my park...I'm happy to pause a second (once or twice) to fix a huge issue, but don't want to be micromanaged by all of the potential pieces of data that comes in and might need attention.
Another thing we're already imagining is that using normal constraints people SHOULD leave our park at a set hour...very few major parks are open 24 hours a day. We let that slide because we know time isn't as fixed/accurate as it is for us. It might be a very slow (and hard to watch game) to see the 30 minute show complete on a ride. So, let's give some of the other areas that same sense of imagination and give the devs the benefit of the doubt on this.
This game is helping us express our creativity, business sense, and ingenuity. Let us not also forget that we're being challenged to use our imagination...so let's use it...and for now just imagine the full trash bins being passed by, the smell of that 3 hour old vomitted Shake and Burger Combo that someone swept up, and get back to playing the game.
Some of the things being asked for don't add value to the game. Maybe a sense of realness for those very limited people who want to see proof that shops get stocked, trash gets taken out, security guards taze vandals...but I argue that these are all distractions for the devs and sure they could visit every single one...it's their business...but I think they know what formula will sell and I dont think it includes the following items (yet)
- ordering food to stock restaurants/shops--we still have to master not having employees quit on us when they get disgruntled.
- garbage en route to storage -this is pretty complex even with work zones. How many trash cans can the worker handle on a given day? Does he just empty them every hour? I think there's a lot of math involved too for programming to make it plausible and match what's happening in your park. Not just dropping a guy in who picks up trash just because it's 3pm.
- parking lots -- unless it's a visual to show how many people are coming, the parking lot right now offers me no in-game benefit.
This is supposed to be a game and with games there is this need for flow. If I'm constantly distracted because:
- Toilet 1 is out of bog roll
- Worker AM32 is taking too long to get back from dumping the trash
- Paths are dirty because the handyman is dumping the trash
- Engineer #2 is angry about being overworks
- Engineer 2 wants a raise
- engineer 2 quit
- vomit is a problem since handyman 2 is walking the trash barrel out
If we were concocting other problems we could also introduce:
- Cash drawers coming up short
- declined credit cards
- expired season passes
- wrong ticket purchased
- entry card printed doesnt work
- guest only can pay with $100 and till doesnt have change
- armored truck to collect money
- complete power outtage
- kid busts nose and shoots blood all over condiment bar
- kids jumping the line or sitting on the handrails
We could probably fill pages of things that 'should' be included buy we'll never get them all and if we did, none of us would have the computer needed to play the game
"Guests are complaining that trash is a problem near Ride X" -- we send the janitor and while we see her sweep, we recognize that at some point this trash will indeed find its way out of the park...we don't see to see it to know it is true...it's just the way of the world. If I'm in building/designing mode in my park...I'm happy to pause a second (once or twice) to fix a huge issue, but don't want to be micromanaged by all of the potential pieces of data that comes in and might need attention.
Another thing we're already imagining is that using normal constraints people SHOULD leave our park at a set hour...very few major parks are open 24 hours a day. We let that slide because we know time isn't as fixed/accurate as it is for us. It might be a very slow (and hard to watch game) to see the 30 minute show complete on a ride. So, let's give some of the other areas that same sense of imagination and give the devs the benefit of the doubt on this.
This game is helping us express our creativity, business sense, and ingenuity. Let us not also forget that we're being challenged to use our imagination...so let's use it...and for now just imagine the full trash bins being passed by, the smell of that 3 hour old vomitted Shake and Burger Combo that someone swept up, and get back to playing the game.
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I am sorry but I was looking for a tycoon game that has theme parks and honestly there is massive advancements in rides. graphics, AI but a step backwards for a lot of management shown so far for myself compared to games I played 10 years ago. I think it is unfair to suggest it's not enough overall because people are expecting different things. At the moment I am finding I am playing games such as Theme Hospital, Prision Architecture etc because of the deeper management.
So far I am still disappointed in the management side from everything they have shown. I won't be playing it tbh because it won't be the game I would like. I am glad I have supported it though as it can lead to bigger and better things in the future.
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This. And to be honest the live stream was a let down. They didn't even show management for the whole stream as they ran out of things to talk about and went back to design and creativity. Sorely disappointed and will probably not be contributing to the forum much anymore because they have already shown how little management there really is.
I am waiting for the Beta release before i judge the management system.
What we saw yesterday is a nice start and good foundation in my opinion, but i hope there is more to it.
Frontier seems to have an aversion against in game visualisation. (path of employees, heatmaps etc.)
Really hope this will change.
What we saw yesterday is a nice start and good foundation in my opinion, but i hope there is more to it.
Frontier seems to have an aversion against in game visualisation. (path of employees, heatmaps etc.)
Really hope this will change.
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That is fair enough. I just believe if they had more to show on Management then they would have shown it in the live stream. It appeared more that they didn't have enough content to even fill a single livestream with content.
The requirement to show a highlighted colour along the path when you select two points would be awesome to visually see so for instance with the Princes it could be cool barbie pink with a 50% transparency so you can see the path under. That was you could see where she actually affects etc.
I agree that some sort of visual feedback on the path area would be sensible. Perhaps start a separate thread on this so that it doesn't get lost in the middle of a wide-ranging thread?
As to the depth of management, I think it's worth bearing a couple of things in mind. The purpose of these livestreams is to give us a broad overview of the new features going into the game in Beta. Frontier don't want to spoil us by showing everything about how they work; they want us to discover it for ourselves. The game will live or die by this decision, but ultimately it's a game that's being built by veterans of the genre, and they're making the game that they think the greatest number of people will enjoy.
We need to be clear on what this game is. The tagline says "simulation evolved" and that's exactly what we've been shown. We've been shown a game where the simulation aspect is given prominence. Where it's important to be more than just utilitarian and for a park to be successful it has to be the sum of its parts. You have to put some effort into making it pretty, you have to put some effort into its design so that your guests' needs are met, and you have to put some effort into managing your staff and equipment to keep the park working efficiently. In career mode you have to do all this with a finite budget, and therein lies the challenge. The simulation is there: every guest is individually simulated, as is every staff member. Ride length, intensity, etc. all play into how your guests view your park, and how your rides perform.
The game isn't about micromanagement. There are *aspects* of this (e.g. making sure your staff are individually happy) but there's a balance between making sure that every aspect of your park is "just so" and actually having fun doing it. The way I think of it is that you, the player, are the visionary behind the park. You design it, you are in overall control, but you have minions to do some of the legwork for you.
Unfortunately there are always going to be people whose expectations aren't met. It's one of the biggest risks with early access type games. On the one hand, if the developers tell you everything about the game up-front you're going to end up disappointed if some of those features don't make the cut, or you'll be burnt out by the time the game actually releases. [Both of these things happened with Elite. The design of the game was effectively public, but so detailed that given time and budget constraints, swathes of it had to be either deferred or cut completely. To the end, some people insisted that the developers had a secret build that contained all the good stuff and it was being held back for release. It wasn't. And the Alpha/Beta/Gamma process was so long, that some people simply got tired of the game by the time it had released.] On the other hand, if they say nothing then there's the risk that people will build it up in their own minds and then be disappointed when it doesn't reach those lofty expectations. I think we've seen this to some extent with Planet Coaster, even though the team have been very mindful of not hyping the game too much. See security guards, they showed some early work on it, and it didn't pan out and for some people that was disappointing.
There are niches in the market for games that concentrate solely on realism, or on micromanagement, or on building. But Frontier are never going to be able to make money by targeting just one of them. They have to target *all* of them, and hope that what they do satisfies the greatest number of people while disappointing the fewest.
What i was aiming for are statistics. And i think Curlyriff is right.
There is not really much they can show yet.
Yesterday i burried another hope. I hoped for a block (like the toilet) where you can build your own administration around and all the staff management can be summon from. (hire, training, salary, etc.)
So one can build at least a very basic backlot.
There is not really much they can show yet.
Yesterday i burried another hope. I hoped for a block (like the toilet) where you can build your own administration around and all the staff management can be summon from. (hire, training, salary, etc.)
So one can build at least a very basic backlot.
Put yourself in the shoes of the game's producers for a moment. Ask yourself what you gain from having a feature like this, and what you lose. Then ask yourself whether the gains exceed the losses for the majority of people and whether there's a feature you would drop to be able to fit it into the budget.
From your description, you're basically asking for a building that fulfils the same role as the management menus. I agree that this feels more immersive, but it's also somewhat more intrusive on gameplay, as you need to navigate there in order to do your management. Other than that it serves little purpose, unless you start assigning gameplay to it. For instance, staff breaks and shifts. You may need more than one employee to fill the role of a particular character and they work in shifts. Or your janitors only come out when there's something to clean up (or patrol for certain periods). There's definite gameplay to be had, but as producer you have to decide whether that gameplay is worth the effort given all the other priorities. You also need to provide gameplay shortcuts for those people who don't care about micromanagement like this.
There are plenty of shortcuts all over the place if you look for them. For example, you don't *have* to build all your own scenery; that's what the Workshop is for. You don't *have* to build your own ride sequences. You don't *have* to assign your staff work areas; they'll just roam if you don't. There are certain things you *do* have to do, such as keeping staff happy and with a large park that's going to be a fairly time-intensive job. That's the other balance: gameplay has to be such that you don't spend all your time doing just one thing.
I guess what I'm getting at is that game design is hard. [haha]
Intensive Stream Yesterday
Hi Bo,
that was an awesome stream yesterday. Frontier had done a great work and for me planet coaster is the best game I have ever played, I can't wait until the 9th of November but please let us know something about waterrides.
I think more than half of the comunity will expect waterrides beeing part of the game. I have never seen a theming park without and I visited many, many parks. I don`t want to be dissatisfied but let us know something .... at least a small hint. [happy] Just make happy an 52nd old theming park maniac[big grin][big grin][big grin]
Best regards Michael
Hi Bo,
that was an awesome stream yesterday. Frontier had done a great work and for me planet coaster is the best game I have ever played, I can't wait until the 9th of November but please let us know something about waterrides.
I think more than half of the comunity will expect waterrides beeing part of the game. I have never seen a theming park without and I visited many, many parks. I don`t want to be dissatisfied but let us know something .... at least a small hint. [happy] Just make happy an 52nd old theming park maniac[big grin][big grin][big grin]
Best regards Michael
I understand but the live stream was called management matters and for a total of 25-30 mins it was about that but then it went on to showing creativity and rides and general gameplay that didn't relate. Seeing how the paths have improved was great but that wasn't what I wanted to watch.
I like they have increased it to 5 levels and they show what it actually means but they seem generic and all the same in principle rather than specific to the worker. And although in real terms it doesn't mean anything different to each one it's the idea of being absorbed into the game from feeling like you are truly training.
I would still want to see staff buildings and for staff to be unavailable whilst training by having to go to the training centre rather just hitting a button and poof it's done. Where is the management in that and not just a facebook game "click button to get to next level gameplay".
Having to make sure that I have enough staff whilst some are being trained and making sure that your park is still running efficiently is something I would want to manage. That is taken away in this game as it was in RCT3 compared to older games.
In other thoughts, from what we have seen, the idea to have the ride attendants training unlocking;
- custom ride sequences at lvl.2
- reduced breakdown using custom ride sequences lvl.3
- custom ride sequences for different queue lengths lvl.4
- Further improvements to reduced breakdown whilst using custom ride sequences lvl.5
Whilst offering the above they can still do the other things but at least training would show some very obvious improvements compared to the subtle ones such as improved happiness which although is good and of course affects gameplay isn't as visually obvious.
In regards to other things:
The security guard idea (although I didn't like the policeman look) is something part of the game and management. Having basic vandalism of items (benches & bins for instance) would allow the security guard to catch them and to have those as actual animations
The gardener, where certain plants/flowers can brown and die but offer greater aesthetic improvements to guest happiness so that people don't circumvent by only using plants that don't die, or it could even just be plants/flowers within 4m of the path so the gardener can access them. He/She can water them then accordingly.
The lack of research (currently known) for improvement of the janitor equipment where he can only empty say 10 bins before having to return to the refuse building to collect new empty trash bags and drop the others off. I don't visually need to see the janitor carry them but just the game play of managing number of bins, amount of litter & janitors is something I would like to do but now I just plop the janitor down and leave them too it.
If a bin doesn't go empty does trash overflow, do flies appear and it smell bad? Will guests start to react to this as it gets worse?
So yeah I get there is a lot in the game which is simulation but this "Management Matters" is not something that comes across really from what they have shown to me at this time. [sad]
I still love the game for what it does but unfortunately and currently at this time it isn't something I will be spending a lot of time with.